Belgian Dark Strong Ale Westvleteren 12 Clone - Multiple Award Winner

Williams 728
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Got stuck once. Since then it's been remedied with a stir plate and decent starter size. Almost feels like it's super sensitive to temp swings and likes to be warmer than other ale yeasts until it's done working.
 
dunnry said:
Pitching 1 vs 2 smack packs into it won't do a lot for you in terms of total overall yeast in the flask. There's only so much sugar in there and if anything, you are encouraging them NOT to divide by overpitching into the starter.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. I did not realize that I can get similar yeast numbers by pitching just one pack... you, sir, just saved me some cash, which I will need after brewing this up! My 2 liter started does look like it's doing the trick, though. Had a bubble about every 6 seconds for a while. It is slowing a bit now, but I am encouraged. I'll try the 5 liter starter next time... just wonder if it is going to be easy to get this stirring well with that much volume. Hopefully this drops to the required gravity.
 
jtp137 said:
Why do some people have trouble with this yeast. This yeast hates me I have had no issue with wlp500 but this one always gets stuck
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A true observation. I think it may be related to yeast 'exhaustion' as well as temp shock sensitivity. Most of the vials and packs of westmalle have dates that are weeks and even months post production, (although the yeast producers are doing everything they possibly can to supply great yeast...and they do). Even the starters made from these vials are only slightly better. Since we brew-test this ale so many times a year we had to find a way to achieve krausen quality yeast in pitching quantities. We use an apparatus for krausen capture but unfortunately it is a stainless collection device, (and not see-through). What we've done here is to create a pyrex version for krausen capture that we can photograph and fairly inexpensive (around $38.00 for the glassware). The Fisher Scientific stir-plate is pricey but there are other great models out there for less than $100.

Here's the beginning of the demonstration:

1. We used an outdated vial of WLP530, (this one dated BUB 6/15/2014). I also let it sit out for 4 weeks for this test.
2. We'll show the growth at intervals and at completed attenuation on the first run.
3. Then we'll decant and recharge a 2nd time with fresh 10P wort to trigger a blow-off.
4. Finally, we'll capture undiluted krausen from the blow-off

Below is the first snapshot of the old yeast in 2000ml of 10P wort after 24 hours. It takes about 72 hours to see growth from a nearly dead vial). When we're done we'll have top quality krausen.

Krausen_Distill_1.JPG
 
I am drooling over that yeast setup, especially the capture flask you have right there. Would you outline all the parts you got and where to buy that stuff? The only yeast I have that regularly blows out the flask is WY3787 (Westmalle, IIRC), but man I would love to capture all that krausen.
 
kshuler said:
Thanks for the advice. I did not realize that I can get similar yeast numbers by pitching just one pack... you, sir, just saved me some cash, which I will need after brewing this up! My 2 liter started does look like it's doing the trick, though. Had a bubble about every 6 seconds for a while. It is slowing a bit now, but I am encouraged. I'll try the 5 liter starter next time... just wonder if it is going to be easy to get this stirring well with that much volume. Hopefully this drops to the required gravity.
Click to expand...

I use the larger version StirStarter (http://stirstarters.com/). It works just fine with a large 5L flask. You don't need Vitamix levels of stirring anyway - a very small vortex is enough. Just enough to break surface tension and you should be fine. If you are worried, you can also infuse with pure O2 as well. Whatever you do, don't put a bubbler on a starter - you want the oxygen getting into the wort.

BTW - if you calculate how many cells you need for 12 gals of 1.090 wort, you will see that a 1.5 (even 2L) starter pitch is a severe underpitch and very likely to stall. I like this calculator best these days (http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/)

If you use the intentionally underpitched at the .75 (million cells / ml / degree plato which is what CSI is recommending for esters), you will see that your 1.5 L initial pitch was around 316 Billion cells and you needed 725 billion - twice as much. With a 4L starter, you get 675 billion cells. It's also a slight underpitch! So, with 4.5L starter, you can hit the target cell count. If you do that and control the temp, you can nail this one.
 
Thank you! This is exactly the info I need. I just bought a 5l erlenmeyer flask, and will start to use that on my 11 gallon batches. And really... even with a 5 liter starter I can just start with a single yeast smack pack, eh?
 
kshuler said:
Thank you! This is exactly the info I need. I just bought a 5l erlenmeyer flask, and will start to use that on my 11 gallon batches. And really... even with a 5 liter starter I can just start with a single yeast smack pack, eh?
Click to expand...

I will preface this with "use a calculator", but yes, for all but your highest gravity beers, you can use a single smack pack with a ~5L starter for 10 gallon batches.

That being said, I like to make a 5L starter no matter what and from what I don't pitch, I save the yeast into mason jars (i.e. I save the extra starter). I can restart the yeast from my clean saved starter any time within 6 months or so. I have WY3787 from over a year ago that I revive every 4 months or so in a fresh starter (from the previous starter). After 4 generations, it still works great.
 
dunnry said:
I am drooling over that yeast setup, especially the capture flask you have right there. Would you outline all the parts you got and where to buy that stuff? The only yeast I have that regularly blows out the flask is WY3787 (Westmalle, IIRC), but man I would love to capture all that krausen.
Click to expand...

Sure, on the 48hr post I'll annotate with parts.
 
At 48 hrs the yeast is reviving with just a little solution density appearing. A good thing to note here is that there is/was very little krausen. Reviving old yeast on the first pass usually has no krausen.

It was given 2 shots of oxygen, (0 hr & 24 hr). A .05 micron diffuser is unnecessary due to the toroidal movement of the stir-plate diffusing the O2 into solution.

Krausen_Distill_2_Named.jpg
 
dunnry said:
If you use the intentionally underpitched at the .75 (million cells / ml / degree plato which is what CSI is recommending for esters), you will see that your 1.5 L initial pitch was around 316 Billion cells and you needed 725 billion - twice as much. With a 4L starter, you get 675 billion cells. It's also a slight underpitch! So, with 4.5L starter, you can hit the target cell count. If you do that and control the temp, you can nail this one.
Click to expand...

Yes, to start this clone definitely suggest the George Fix rate, however the Fix rate assumes high viability *and* vitality so the step-up over the Fix rate is likely a compensation for lower viability and/or vitality, (actually not a bad idea). If creating an "ends-of-the-earth" clone where every detail is observed and krausen is used then the Fix rate will be more than enough, possibly too much. Below is a link to the chart with pre-calculated Fix rates. There is also a column for under-pitching as well.

Edit (using krausen is based on Stan's report of St. Sixtus using freshly harvested yeast collected from Westmalle Abbey on brew day).

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/pitching_rates_-_rev_1.14.pdf
 
CSI said:
Yes, to start this clone we recommend the George Fix rate, however the Fix rate assumes high viability (98%+) so the step-up over the Fix rate is likely a compensation for lower viability, (actually not a bad idea). If creating an "ends-of-the-earth" clone where every detail is observed and krausen is used then the Fix rate will be more than enough, possibly too much. Below is a link to the chart with pre-calculated Fix rates. There is also a column for underpitching as well, (which assumes the use of 98%+ viable yeast).

Edit (using krausen is based on Stan's report of St. Sixtus using freshly harvested yeast collected from Westmalle Abbey on brew day).

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/pitching_rates_-_rev_1.14.pdf
Click to expand...


Isn't that why we use the date on the vial to estimate viability? Is. Viability the same as active alive yeast cells?

If I need 100 billion cells and get an old tube that has 50% viability and make a starter to double the count I would have 50 billion dead cells and 100 billion alive cells. So the viability would be 66.7%? But I would still have the 100 billion cells needed to pitch into the wort
 
jtp137 said:
Isn't that why we use the date on the vial to estimate viability? Is. Viability the same as active alive yeast cells?

If I need 100 billion cells and get an old tube that has 50% viability and make a starter to double the count I would have 50 billion dead cells and 100 billion alive cells. So the viability would be 66.7%? But I would still have the 100 billion cells needed to pitch into the wort
Click to expand...

That's a subject on healthy fermenting worth bringing up. Viability vs. vitality. Jamil has a good quote on this:

"There may be instances where you measure a viability of more than 90 percent in your pitch, but you still encounter a fermentation that slowly creeps along. How is this possible? It is quite possible for a pitch to measure high viability only to have a weak fermentation. Do not forget yeast can have high viability and low vitality. - Yeast, The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation pp.166-167"
Click to expand...

George Fix discusses some properties that contribute to low vitality in viable yeast. One interesting factor is 'bud scarring' where a reproducing parent has slowed metabolic capacity due to too much budding, (the cell membrane becomes inefficient). The parent will have scarring while the budded daughters will not. This may be one reason why krausen has so much more vitality. In a clone like the Westy 12 vitality can mean the difference between a successful brew and a stuck fermentation. I suspect the monks in West Vleteren have known this for a long time :)
 
At 72 Hours we have all of the yeast reproduction we'll get from this old vial of Westmalle. You can see a little more density. This goes to flocc-decant then a second infusion of 10P wort to blow off some krausen for a higher vitality yeast more suitable for a quad. (BTW, the yeast here could be used directly in a lower gravity ale <=1.065. The only problem I have with that is the 60-80 billion dense dead cells at the bottom of the flask).

Krausen_Distill_3.jpg
 
CSI said:
At 72 Hours we have all of the yeast reproduction we'll get from this vial of Westmalle. You can see a little more density. This goes to flocc-decant then a second infusion of 10P wort to blow off some krausen for a high vitality yeast more suitable for a quad.
Click to expand...


So are you only using the yeast from the krausen in the starter? Are you collecting the foam in the second vessel and only pitching that?
 
jtp137 said:
So are you only using the yeast from the krausen in the starter? Are you collecting the foam in the second vessel and only pitching that?
Click to expand...

Yes, the blowoff krausen is mainly offspring with very high vitality. Since brewing a quad can be hit or miss sometimes due to unknown vitality, using krausen takes some of the guess work out of a good fermentation. We use krausen no older than a day or two in following the St. Sixtus method, (they pitch krausen exclusively on the Westy 12). After the capture from a prior Westmalle Extra or a Westvleteren 8 fermentation it is measured and pitched into the 12. Below is a pic of our scaled-down commercial device on a 17.5 gal conical.

The pyrex version illustrated above can be used to capture enough krausen for a Westy 12 (5 gallon batch). You can also do the blow-off run 2x's to capture more krausen. The krausen can be used to create a super healthy starter or pitched directly.

Krausen Capture 1.jpg
 
Below is the krausen capture pic only 4 hours after the 2nd 10P wort infusion. The O2 port is capped so there is no blow-back. Just a guess before measuring but we probably have 140-160 billion cells. The blow-off isn't quite done yet. This krausen can be used to create a large starter of 4-5 L of superior vitality yeast. It can also be pitched directly into a 5 gallon quad.

Krausen Capture 4.jpg
 
CSI said:
Below is the krausen capture pic only 4 hours after the 2nd 10P wort infusion. The O2 port is capped so there is no blow-back. Just a guess before measuring but we probably have 140-160 billion cells. The blow-off isn't quite done yet. This krausen can be used to create a large starter of 4-5 L of superior vitality yeast. It can also be pitched directly into a 5 gallon quad.
Click to expand...


What is your estimated cell count per milliliter of krousen
 
jtp137 said:
What is your estimated cell count per milliliter of krousen
Click to expand...

We flocc the yeast down to a packed sediment in a smaller E.Flask. Westmalle measures very close to 4.0 billion cells per *packed* ml. 60-65 ml of packed Westmalle is enough for a 5 gallon fermentation of 1.090 wort, (some say 4.5 billion/ml). Measuring krausen slurry by volume is not consistent enough for an accurate count, (likely due to the inconsistency of spent carry-over beer with the new cells in the krausen). Outside of using a hemocytometer, measuring packed yeast by ml is a reliable means to get a close count.
 
Just an update and thank you to people on this forum. I had stalled at 1.022, and on advice here pitched a 2l active starter (couldn't get 5 liters). Bubbling started immediately in the air lock and I am now down to 1.016. Not quite where I want, but close enough. Thank you everyone!
 
kshuler said:
Just an update and thank you to people on this forum. I had stalled at 1.022, and on advice here pitched a 2l active starter (couldn't get 5 liters). Bubbling started immediately in the air lock and I am now down to 1.016. Not quite where I want, but close enough. Thank you everyone!
Click to expand...


How long has it been since your second pitch?
 
kshuler said:
It's been 10 days now. NO more activity in the airlock today that i have seen. Think I'l keg it today.
Click to expand...

Since you started with a higher OG I think that you will like it where it finished. I let my OG get too high on a batch (1.095) and it finished around 1.018. My wife liked it so I kegged most of it and it turned out fine. A little sweet but not as much as I had feared.

On the other hand, I had just finished a saison with 3711 and decided to pitch that yeast into about 2 gallons that I didn't keg. Turned it into jet fuel.

Of course, hitting your numbers on the OG and FG on this recipe is the best.
 
kshuler said:
It's been 10 days now. NO more activity in the airlock today that i have seen. Think I'l keg it today.
Click to expand...

With no airlock activity it will continue to attenuate even though it looks like it is at a dead standstill. Waiting for this ale is probably the most difficult *technique*.
 
Making this for the second time this weekend. First time around I followed CSI temp schedule and pitched 320 billion cells. It got stuck at 1.014 this time around I will up pit h by 10%
 
Looks like my late hops have a lot less IBUs than the posted recipe. Do I adjust the amounts to match the IBUs for the 30 minute and 15 minute addition. Or do I keep the 1 oz amounts

Second If up the batch to 10 gallons do I oxygenate for 4 minutes
 
jtp137 said:
Looks like my late hops have a lot less IBUs than the posted recipe. Do I adjust the amounts to match the IBUs for the 30 minute and 15 minute addition. Or do I keep the 1 oz amounts

Second If up the batch to 10 gallons do I oxygenate for 4 minutes
Click to expand...

We run into the same thing most of the time. IBU's are never consistent from harvest to harvest. I pro-rate the hops bill, (weight +-), based on IBU's.

With a .05 micron diffuser it's difficult to reach 10ppm O2. We have an inline diffuser and I've run it in excess of 5 minutes on 11 gallon batches without any negatives.
 
CSI said:
We run into the same thing most of the time. IBU's are never consistent from harvest to harvest. I pro-rate the hops bill, (weight +-), based on IBU's.



With a .05 micron diffuser it's difficult to reach 10ppm O2. We have an inline diffuser and I've run it in excess of 5 minutes on 11 gallon batches without any negatives.
Click to expand...


When u run 11 gallon batches do you use 5 pounds or 6 pounds of d-180
 
jtp137 said:
Looks like my late hops have a lot less IBUs than the posted recipe. Do I adjust the amounts to match the IBUs for the 30 minute and 15 minute addition. Or do I keep the 1 oz amounts

Second If up the batch to 10 gallons do I oxygenate for 4 minutes
Click to expand...

The recipe is geared towards a IBU based on preexisting alpha acids for the hops. To get the same results you'll need to get the AA from your own hops and calculate the IBUs that way to make adjustments to match the IBUs. I've gotten Syrian Golding hops in the 8% range and some Cascade at nearly 9%. Almost double what data sheets will say. Beersmith will let you plug in the values to get your updated amounts to use to match the recipe.
 
my batch with "danstar abbaye" instead of "wpl530" finally stopped bubbling after 13 days at 75-80 degrees.

Waiting a bit longer for a gravity test and then it will move to the cellar.

my biggest problem is that i don't know when my belgian friends will visit next to bring "comparison materials" :D
 
I pitched 80 ml of thick yeast collected from active krausen of Belgian Blonde the week before and my Westy 10 clone finished @ 1.010 very rapidly. I had to use a heat belt to ramp the temp
 
2 weeks in, and the danstar abbaye has chewed through the beer in an insane tempo, it's already at 1.008 sg and i've brought the temp down to about 10 C.

The sample tasted okay, but obviously raw.
 
I live in Sweden, and have not been able to find the csi products anywhere in Europe. The csi website mentions an importer in the Netherlands, but I haven't found it.
 

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