Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[wobdee]

Forgive me I’ve not read all 19 pages - and I’m new so cut me some slack...

But my first brew in years in conditioning now it’s a Budweiser clone and - as I used to work for them - I’m just blindly copying their temperature profile which is warmer than you’d normally expect for a lager (I think but maybe not?)

So I chilled the wort down to about 21C and pitched using Mangrove Jack’s Bohemian Lager yeast - which I have no idea how good / bad it is.

I then kept this at 17C for 7 days as the gravity dropped from 1052 down to 1013 - it’s now in what we would have called chips at 13C for two weeks - minus any beechwood.
Next week I intend to crash it down to 0 and fine - this is where it would be centrifuges and filtered so my method diverges from the brewery but I’ll prime and bottle after a couple of days at 0 and see how it looks / tastes.

This is interesting. Im sure other big breweries ferment somewhat warm for their Lagers but i also think they can get away with it because of the natural pressures in their HUGE fermenters which will help supress esters. There are some threads around about pressure fermentation that may be an interesting read.

 

[MakeDankBeer]

Well couldn't stay away for long, brewed another one this weekend,
3 gal
1.050 og
2 lb 2-row
2lb 6-row
1lb of flaked corn
1lb of flaked rice
.25 oz willamette fwh
.25 oz willamette @15min
2 pinches of irish moss @15 min

pitched 3 packets of WLP840(forgot to make a starter)
aerated for 60sec of pure oxygen
pitched at 50°f

think ill just let this free rise up into the mid 60s for couple days then let it get up into the 70s for a week, then try and "chill" it for two-three weeks. FIN with gelatin keg and drink after week or two.

Finished, taste pretty good, could use a little more bitterness. No off flavors to my un-trained palate. Ended up dry hopping it with some wet comet I grew. I pretty much followed the plan from above although I think I waited longer to transfer to keg. It still did not come out as clear as I wanted but oh well.

 

[@RoyalGallon]

This is interesting. Im sure other big breweries ferment somewhat warm for their Lagers but i also think they can get away with it because of the natural pressures in their HUGE fermenters which will help supress esters. There are some threads around about pressure fermentation that may be an interesting read.

Interesting - of course the hydrostatic pressure is going to have an effect - I’d never considered that.
The FVs at Mortlake we’re up to 3100hL and six floors high. That’s a lot of pressure on the yeast cell in the cone!

 

[Tulsahomebrewer]

Wow, this is an awesome thread! But I am super confused after reading 19 pages of it, so please tell me if this works:

- Started “warm” fermenting a pilsner in a 6.5 Gallon plastic bucket on 8th Sep. Used Dry yeast. Bucket shows 70-72F on the outside. Bucket is in a bath tub full of water and rotating ice packs twice a day, water temp around 66-68F.
- It has been bubbling like crazy and today I see some bubbles twice a minute. I am at 5 day Mark. I assume I let ferment for 2-4 more days, correct?
- Then, shall I take bucket out of tub and place at room temp of about 76-78F for 2 days to D-rest?
- Then Siphon our to pouring bucket, prime it and bottle it.
- Then keep bottles in dark warm closet for 2 weeks? Temp about 76-78F.
- Then move bottles into fridge for 2 weeks at 34-36F?
- Test one to make sure it is well carbonated and clear-ish? If not let it sit another week or two.

Did I get it kinda right? I don’t want to use secondary but want to use gelatin, can I add it during d-rest?

Thanks.
I am super stoked to have found this thread!! Saved me some money on a wine cooler for cold fermenting.

 

[Miraculix]

Wow, this is an awesome thread! But I am super confused after reading 19 pages of it, so please tell me if this works:

- Started “warm” fermenting a pilsner in a 6.5 Gallon plastic bucket on 8th Sep. Used Dry yeast. Bucket shows 70-72F on the outside. Bucket is in a bath tub full of water and rotating ice packs twice a day, water temp around 66-68F.
- It has been bubbling like crazy and today I see some bubbles twice a minute. I am at 5 day Mark. I assume I let ferment for 2-4 more days, correct?
- Then, shall I take bucket out of tub and place at room temp of about 76-78F for 2 days to D-rest?
- Then Siphon our to pouring bucket, prime it and bottle it.
- Then keep bottles in dark warm closet for 2 weeks? Temp about 76-78F.
- Then move bottles into fridge for 2 weeks at 34-36F?
- Test one to make sure it is well carbonated and clear-ish? If not let it sit another week or two.

Did I get it kinda right? I don’t want to use secondary but want to use gelatin, can I add it during d-rest?

Thanks.
I am super stoked to have found this thread!! Saved me some money on a wine cooler for cold fermenting.

You can do it your way, this will result in nice beer.
However, I pitch yeast at room temp, let it ferment at room temp, let the yeast settle out, bottle and let the bottles stand at room temp till they are carbed, then I begin drinking it.

Thekey is using a yeast that works at warmer temperatures, like those California lager strains.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Wow, this is an awesome thread! But I am super confused after reading 19 pages of it, so please tell me if this works:

- Started “warm” fermenting a pilsner in a 6.5 Gallon plastic bucket on 8th Sep. Used Dry yeast. Bucket shows 70-72F on the outside. Bucket is in a bath tub full of water and rotating ice packs twice a day, water temp around 66-68F.
- It has been bubbling like crazy and today I see some bubbles twice a minute. I am at 5 day Mark. I assume I let ferment for 2-4 more days, correct?
- Then, shall I take bucket out of tub and place at room temp of about 76-78F for 2 days to D-rest?
- Then Siphon our to pouring bucket, prime it and bottle it.
- Then keep bottles in dark warm closet for 2 weeks? Temp about 76-78F.
- Then move bottles into fridge for 2 weeks at 34-36F?
- Test one to make sure it is well carbonated and clear-ish? If not let it sit another week or two.

Did I get it kinda right? I don’t want to use secondary but want to use gelatin, can I add it during d-rest?

Thanks.
I am super stoked to have found this thread!! Saved me some money on a wine cooler for cold fermenting.

Diacetyl rest is totally unnecessary.

Gelatin definitely works best at cold temperature.
I used gelatin for the first time in my Oktoberfest and I'm not happy with it. It has chill haze. Not sure why.

Check carbonation level before moving bottles to the fridge.

 

[Sbe2]

So I went to the LHBS today planning on making a Kölsch with wlp029, but they were sold out. I went back to this thread while at the store and I immediately looked to see if they had wlp800 and they did. It is my first time using wlp800 so I will see how it goes at 65f!

 

[Genuine]

Soooooo.....I couldn’t wait any longer. Just tapped my Oktoberfest! Very nice, malty and crisp! 5.7% ABV! Can’t wait to see how it improves with age!

 

[Tulsahomebrewer]

Hydrometer is showing 4.5% after 7 days of warm fermenting Pilsner at 68-70F. Is that normal, or do I need to ferment it for few more days? I expected it to be around 5.5%-6%. Airlock was pretty calm, maybe bubbling once every 50 seconds. Tasted flat obviously as it isn’t carbonated yet, but I expected some more hoppy taste.

I have taken fermenting bucket out of cool water, so it is at room temperature now if about 76F.

Maybe I am panicking for no reason!!!! I don’t want my first brew to be spoilt or worse taste like Coors Light!!!!

 

[divrack]

Just to report.. first warm fermented lager so far not a huge success. Simple recipe fermented at about 16c ambient using 34/70. Had a couple weeks cold conditioning now and still tastes like sulphur bum...
Was hoping for a quick turnaround beer for a friend's wedding last week but had to take a different beer.

 

[J-T]

Just to report.. first warm fermented lager so far not a huge success. Simple recipe fermented at about 16c ambient using 34/70. Had a couple weeks cold conditioning now and still tastes like sulphur bum...
Was hoping for a quick turnaround beer for a friend's wedding last week but had to take a different beer.

Sulfur almost always ages out and IME is usually a yeast stress issue. Didn't you say this pack was dated? 34/70 has higher sulfur production to start, adding the variable of being old likely just compounded the sulfur problem.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Just to report.. first warm fermented lager so far not a huge success. Simple recipe fermented at about 16c ambient using 34/70. Had a couple weeks cold conditioning now and still tastes like sulphur bum...
Was hoping for a quick turnaround beer for a friend's wedding last week but had to take a different beer.

Sulfur almost always ages out and IME is usually a yeast stress issue. Didn't you say this pack was dated? 34/70 has higher sulfur production to start, adding the variable of being old likely just compounded the sulfur problem.

Have you guys looked at rehydration or cell count specifically on dry yeast? In this example two packets are needed.

This is the paid Mr Malty app.

The link is for a pc however on mobile you need the app.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Mr Malty's calculator is generally regarded as rather pessimistic, so worth looking at others.

 

[divrack]

Sulfur almost always ages out and IME is usually a yeast stress issue. Didn't you say this pack was dated? 34/70 has higher sulfur production to start, adding the variable of being old likely just compounded the sulfur problem.

It wasn't old as far as I know. Recently bought from a shop. I used 2 packs, not rehydrated but they don't suggest you do.

Not saying it won't get better, but just adding a data point to say the grain to glass 2 week schedule I've read reported here didn't happen in this case. Happy to let it chill a while and will let y'all know how it goes. The other half of the wort I did with a pack of notty and lots of hops is already long gone and was a smash at the wedding..

 

[Schlenkerla]

Mr Malty's calculator is generally regarded as rather pessimistic, so worth looking at others.

What do you suggest using?

If it's believed to be a strained ferment or dated dry yeast it should be a pitching consideration.

 

[InspectorJon]

California Bliss -
I started this last weekend, a small batch recipe for anyone that wants to try that:
44 oz pale 2 row
7 oz crystal 40
3 oz crystal 60
2.8 gallons of water BIAB mash at 155F for 1 hour
1.036 preboil gravity

Northern Brewer hops 8.3%
8g for 60 min
7g for 10 min
6g for 5 min

I boiled a bit harder than I thought I guess and had to add 1/2 inch of water to the brew kettle to get it to finish at 1.050 post boil.
1.75 gallons into fermenter
Cool to 70 degrees pitch 1 pack of re-hydrated MJ54
Fermenter is sitting in a water bath. Temps ranged from 66F at the start on up to 70F
I'll bottle next weekend then throw a doppelbock on the yeast.

 

[ba-brewer]

What do you suggest using?

If it's believed to be a strained ferment or dated dry yeast it should be a pitching consideration.

As this approach is doing lagers at ale temps I think you should be able to use the hybrid yeast setting, but using the lager amounts should not hurt things.

I use brewunited for starters but I still use mr malty for determining the amount of slurry from previous pitches and dry yeast. The amount of older yeast slurry does seem like a lot sometimes, but it is also surprising how little slurry is needed if the yeast is fresh.

Chris white makes some comments in this video about how Jamil likes to use more yeast than needed but does not say it is a bad thing. He also says you should have 50% of the original yeast at end of the use by date which is more than the Mr malty calculator suggests. I believe the comments are toward the end of video in Q&A segment.

I think being conservative on the yeast pitch and possible over pitching for a beers like these is better than under pitching.​

 

[J-T]

It wasn't old as far as I know. Recently bought from a shop. I used 2 packs, not rehydrated but they don't suggest you do.

Not saying it won't get better, but just adding a data point to say the grain to glass 2 week schedule I've read reported here didn't happen in this case. Happy to let it chill a while and will let y'all know how it goes. The other half of the wort I did with a pack of notty and lots of hops is already long gone and was a smash at the wedding..

Roger that, I must have mixed up the post. Regardless, my experience with 34/70, whether dry or liquid is that is kicks up some sulfur. I am fermenting a pils and helles with WY2124 (also weihenstephan 34/70) right now and can smell the sulfur when lifting the freezer lid. If you're in a hurry to get of it, contact with copper will do the trick.

 

[ba-brewer]

I have read you can bubble CO2 through the keg to scrub excessive sulfur but have not tried it. Attach the CO2 to bev out post and vent using the CO2 in post or PRV.

 

[Schlenkerla]

As this approach is doing lagers at ale temps I think you should be able to use the hybrid yeast setting, but using the lager amounts should not hurt things.

I use brewunited for starters but I still use mr malty for determining the amount of slurry from previous pitches and dry yeast. The amount of older yeast slurry does seem like a lot sometimes, but it is also surprising how little slurry is needed if the yeast is fresh.

Chris white makes some comments in this video about how Jamil likes to use more yeast than needed but does not say it is a bad thing. He also says you should have 50% of the original yeast at end of the use by date which is more than the Mr malty calculator suggests. I believe the comments are toward the end of video in Q&A segment.

I think being conservative on the yeast pitch and possible over pitching for a beers like these is better than under pitching.​

Thanks. I'd agree over pitching better than under pitching unless you want that resultant flavor aspect in your beer.

This is the result for switching it to hybrid. 1.4, so rounded up, its two packages.

I only use this to tell me when I might want to consider a second yeast package. I only use dry yeast.

 

[Sbe2]

Probably as good a place to ask, but how would you categorize this beer:

7 lbs 2 row
2.5 lbs of white wheat malt

1 oz US Perle (5.2 AA) 60 mon
1 oz Hallerrau Mittlefrueh (2.7 AA) 15 min
1 oz Hallerrau Mittlefrueh (2.7 AA) 5 min

1500mL starter of wlp800

Fermented at ~65f until a keg kicks

*was going to brew a Kölsch but the LHBS didn’t have 029

 

[@RoyalGallon]

Surprised noone has commented on this. Yes if 17C is what Bud uses then yes that's 7+C warmer than the Germans would ferment at, and very much in line with what people are doing here, and conditioning at cellar temp is even warmer relative to usual lagering temperature.

I can see why you chose M84. It will be interesting to see how you get on with it, because I don't think anyone's tried it to date. However, there's a good chance that it's a Saaz-type lager yeast, which are the cleaner, more cold-adapted group, so it may not be as happy as one of the more warm-adapted Frohberg group. As you may have seen, MJ M54 Californian Lager seems to be the current favourite for warm lager.

However, if you're open to using liquid yeast then you might like to try WLP840 American Lager (supposedly from Budweiser) and WLP862 Cry Havoc, a lager yeast promoted by Charlie Papazian (doyen of US homebrewing) as an all-purpose yeast that can be fermented at 13-23C. Originally it was isolated from a Budweiser keg, and ended up in the Coors yeast bank.

It's worth noting that homebrew yeast are sold as single strains, whereas a commercial brewery will often have several strains in their house yeast, so you'll never quite match them unless you harvest directly. In the Gallone sequencing paper there was an intriguing pair of (codenamed) single strains in the saison family that were closely related and both used commercially for making lager - one in the US and one Czech. I wonder which two breweries in those countries might be using highly related yeast that look like they diverged in the mid-20th century?

PS Given the North American bias of HBT, you might want to clarify in your profile that you're not from the Canadian Windsor.

As a scientist I know negative are as important as positive result - in fact probably more so.
So with that in mind MJ Bohemian lager M54 doesn’t like the heat.

I’ve just crash cooled and fined my beer and tasted a sample. Aside from the expected earthy and bitter linger I expect from the yeast in a green beer this is gloopy.

When cold it had a lovely sweet bubble gum aroma - something I actually associate with Bud funnily enough. But as it warmed up to room temp the beer was very solventy, hot alcohol - it’s got hangover written all over it.

I think it’ll be better once it’s carbonated and cleared but it’s far too dirty to call Bud.

I think I’ll try again at some point with a California yeast but I’ll strike M54 from the list.

 

[Miraculix]

As a scientist I know negative are as important as positive result - in fact probably more so.
So with that in mind MJ Bohemian lager M54 doesn’t like the heat.

I’ve just crash cooled and fined my beer and tasted a sample. Aside from the expected earthy and bitter linger I expect from the yeast in a green beer this is gloopy.

When cold it had a lovely sweet bubble gum aroma - something I actually associate with Bud funnily enough. But as it warmed up to room temp the beer was very solventy, hot alcohol - it’s got hangover written all over it.

I think it’ll be better once it’s carbonated and cleared but it’s far too dirty to call Bud.

I think I’ll try again at some point with a California yeast but I’ll strike M54 from the list.

Thanks for sharing, now we know!

I had the cleanest results at uncontrolled room temp with mj California lager, closely followed by wlp 800.

I got the feeling that the mj flocs a little bit better, so for convenience, I would go for the mj yeast.

 

[Genuine]

For my Oktoberfest, I pitched one packet of 34/70, couldn’t be happier with it.

 

[Miraculix]

I hate the low floc aspect of 3470. I wonder if it would be possible to throw in half a pack of safale04 at the end of fermentation to give the flocculation a boost without the 04 ester production, as not much fermentables would be left at the point when it is introduced.

 

[Tulsahomebrewer]

Hydrometer is showing 4.5% after 7 days of warm fermenting Pilsner at 68-70F. Is that normal, or do I need to ferment it for few more days? I expected it to be around 5.5%-6%. Airlock was pretty calm, maybe bubbling once every 50 seconds. Tasted flat obviously as it isn’t carbonated yet, but I expected some more hoppy taste.

I have taken fermenting bucket out of cool water, so it is at room temperature now if about 76F.

Maybe I am panicking for no reason!!!! I don’t want my first brew to be spoilt or worse taste like Coors Light!!!!

Hi guys, any comments on my questions above? Maybe cause of moving bucket out of tub onto sink counter yesterday night, I see bubbles now every 40 seconds. Bucket temperature seems to be at 80F. Should I measure ABV again tonight (24 hrs) and then bottle it tomorrow?

 

[ba-brewer]

Hi guys, any comments on my questions above? Maybe cause of moving bucket out of tub onto sink counter yesterday night, I see bubbles now every 40 seconds. Bucket temperature seems to be at 80F. Should I measure ABV again tonight (24 hrs) and then bottle it tomorrow?

Bucket are prone to loosing their seal so not the best to look at bubbles to determine when the beer is done. Measure gravity in a day or two and see if it the same. Moving a fermentor to a warm environment will get CO2 to leave solution.

What was your starting gravity and what was your mash temp?

In general you should be at terminal gravity in 7days if your beer started without much lag.

 

[Tulsahomebrewer]

Bucket are prone to loosing their seal so not the best to look at bubbles to determine when the beer is done. Measure gravity in a day or two and see if it the same. Moving a fermentor to a warm environment will get CO2 to leave solution.

What was your starting gravity and what was your mash temp?

In general you should be at terminal gravity in 7days if your beer started without much lag.

Thanks for replying. Starting gravity was 1.055 and it was 1.020 yesterday night. Mash temp if I am not mistaken was 154F.

 

[ba-brewer]

Thanks for replying. Starting gravity was 1.055 and it was 1.020 yesterday night. Mash temp if I am not mistaken was 154F.

Check it again tomorrow night or the next, you were only at like 63% attenuation most lagers yeast should get you close 75%.

At 154 you might finish a bit high for a pilsner, if you want crispness mash down closer to 148 or 150 next time.

​

 

[Tulsahomebrewer]

Check it again tomorrow night or the next, you were only at like 63% attenuation most lagers yeast should get you close 75%.

At 154 you might finish a bit high for a pilsner, if you want crispness mash down closer to 148 or 150 next time.

​

I couldn’t wait and checked right now and hydrometer shows 1.014......that is about 5.3%!!!! I am hoping by tomorrow afternoon, I should be able to prime and bottle!!!