Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[azmark]

you all know that WLP800 is actually an Ale yeast? This is from DNA profiling recently done in Australia.

Seems 34/70 is also cerevisiae.

 

[bradleypariah]

I'm extremely new to lager, and my basement is 58° F (about 15° C).
I decided to make a Sam Adams Black Lager clone and I'm going to make an Anchor Steam clone later this week. I figure Sam Adams doesn't use California Common yeast for their Black Lager, but I wanted to try it out.

So I ended up making those beers. I'm not sure my results are going to be helpful, because taste is subjective, and I kinda did the opposite of the topic, but I'm sharing in case anyone finds it interesting. I chose a lager yeast (CrossMyLoof California Common) that's supposed to be fermented warm, but I ended up fermenting it cold because I have no means of warming my glass carboys downstairs.

For what it's worth, I really liked the Black Lager. I shared it at my homebrew club, and more than one person asked for seconds. It looked black as midnight, but the mouthfeel was that of a light German lager. Exactly what I wanted.

According to Wyeast, lager should be fermented at 48-58° F, but according to CrossMyLoof, their Cali Common strain should be fermented at 59-72° F. Well, I fermented at 56 °F for three weeks and just went straight to keg. I didn't raise the temp for a diacetyl rest, and I don't think it needed it. The beer's already gone if that's any indication. (I made a pumpkin beer a month or two before that, and I still have half the keg.)

The traditional California Common beer is still fermenting in the basement. Last time I checked it was 59° F down there, so I'm not really pushing any boundaries with that batch.

If you have access to CML's range of yeast (I'm in the UK so easy to get and cheap. I' not so sure about the US), their Kolsch yeast fermented at your basement temp of 15C gives execellent results

I've been watching this thread, and I'm feeling confident that I can just use whatever yeast I wish this coming summer, which is good because I'm enjoying the more quaffable nature of lagers at the moment. I plan to do a twist on Henry Weinhard's Private Reserve within the coming weeks. I'm going to use the CML Kolsh and ferment it at whatever temp my basement is.

 

[Upthewazzu]

Brewed up an IPL a few weeks back with liquid 34/70 and fermented at ~60°F for 3 weeks, before sticking the fermenter in my garage to "crash" the beer to ~ 45°F for a few days. At that temp, it was crystal clear going into the keg (I did not use gelatin this time). After a day of force carbing @ 30psi, it was a hazy mess! Although I'm not bothered by the haze. However, I was surprised by the muted hop character given that it should have been roughly 50 IBU. Even my non-IPA drinking buddy thought it was very good and did not exhibit any hop bitterness. My IBU tongue-tester says its probably in the neighborhood of 30-35 IBU's. Otherwise, it's a damn good beer for being so green. I'm probably going to leave it be for 2 weeks before I take another pull (ok, that's probably a lie...).

I just wanted to follow up on this and say that this beer is fan-freaking-tastic. Possibly one of the best I've ever made. The 5 gallon keg is just about kicked after only one weekend. It also cleared up considerable after only 1 week in the keg. I will definitely be trying more IPL/PL's using this strain at ~60°.

 

[Nebraskan]

Purging kegs of oxygen by pushing out a full keg of StarSan is pretty standard practice on these forums these days. Anything less and you are introducing a lot of oxygen to your beer when you rack to the keg.

I just push the StarSan from one keg to the next keg in line. It continually gets recycled into a new keg, it'll last for months before I dump it and make a fresh solution to use. I'd argue I'm using less StarSan using this method compared to mixing up a batch each time I want to sanitize a keg. It does use up a bunch of CO2 though.

I work at a winery in Michigan and we "gas" the tanks with CO2 before we move wine into it. We don't fill a 5200 gallon tank with CO2, but do hook up a CO2 line to the side valve, start the CO2 and when it's running in at around 15 psi (through a quick connects - tri-clover with a corresponding end to go on to the line in air chuck) we start the CO2 and then shut the bottom valve. Then after about 5 or so minutes shut off the CO2. CO2 is heavier than air and settles in the bottoms of the tank, so when we start moving wine in there, through the bottom valve, the wine level moves the CO2 up in the tank and finally out the top, or if not filled completely, it pushes out the CO2 but forms a blanket of CO2 over the wine.

With kegging, if you purge your kegs with CO2 with the "IN" side for about 20 seconds, leaving the pressure release valve up (or the tank lid loose) and disconnect the "IN" side CO2 line your keg has CO2 in it. If you fill your keg like I do, using a tube that goes to the bottom of the keg, and fill from the bottom up, I rest assured that I am not introducing oxygen into my beer. Plus, it saves a lot on Star San and CO2. I think you could even purge a keg with a Soda Stream and tube in a pinch.

Here is the thing that I don't think a lot of your realize is that right after fermentation, the liquid has a lot of dissolved CO2 already in it. When we ferment a wine or cider and centrifuge into a tank, that tank is not purged with CO2 - for that operation. The wine will be disturbed and release an enormous amount of CO2 during the centrifuge - to - tank operation. It is prevalent in ALL fermented products; wine, cider, and beer. When I run a test for TA (Total Acids) and titrate with 0.1N NaOH I have to put my 10 ml of sample that I have in a special vacuum jar and remove the CO2 out of the wine/cider so it does not affect the test, IE give a false higher reading than it would otherwise. I don't do this on juice as there is no CO2 in juice, but even if we suspect that our juice may have started fermenting just a little bit before I get a chance to test it, it HAS TO BE vacuumed to get rid of the dissolved CO2. In other words, your beer already has CO2 in it before you put it in the keg, and would have to give up the CO2 to be able to absorb any O2.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Seems 34/70 is also cerevisiae.

No - it's a cerevisiae x eubayanus hybrid, the archetypal Frohberg-group hybrid. But Frohberg do have more cerevisiae DNA than the Saaz group of hybrids.

I'm feeling confident that I can just use whatever yeast I wish this coming summer

Personally I wouldn't be that confident - I think where we are at the moment is that most but not all Frohbergs and no Saaz are suitable for warm-ferments, but that's not certain.

 

[cmac62]

I work at a winery in Michigan and we "gas" the tanks with CO2 before we move wine into it. We don't fill a 5200 gallon tank with CO2, but do hook up a CO2 line to the side valve, start the CO2 and when it's running in at around 15 psi (through a quick connects - tri-clover with a corresponding end to go on to the line in air chuck) we start the CO2 and then shut the bottom valve. Then after about 5 or so minutes shut off the CO2. CO2 is heavier than air and settles in the bottoms of the tank, so when we start moving wine in there, through the bottom valve, the wine level moves the CO2 up in the tank and finally out the top, or if not filled completely, it pushes out the CO2 but forms a blanket of CO2 over the wine.

With kegging, if you purge your kegs with CO2 with the "IN" side for about 20 seconds, leaving the pressure release valve up (or the tank lid loose) and disconnect the "IN" side CO2 line your keg has CO2 in it. If you fill your keg like I do, using a tube that goes to the bottom of the keg, and fill from the bottom up, I rest assured that I am not introducing oxygen into my beer. Plus, it saves a lot on Star San and CO2. I think you could even purge a keg with a Soda Stream and tube in a pinch.

Here is the thing that I don't think a lot of your realize is that right after fermentation, the liquid has a lot of dissolved CO2 already in it. When we ferment a wine or cider and centrifuge into a tank, that tank is not purged with CO2 - for that operation. The wine will be disturbed and release an enormous amount of CO2 during the centrifuge - to - tank operation. It is prevalent in ALL fermented products; wine, cider, and beer. When I run a test for TA (Total Acids) and titrate with 0.1N NaOH I have to put my 10 ml of sample that I have in a special vacuum jar and remove the CO2 out of the wine/cider so it does not affect the test, IE give a false higher reading than it would otherwise. I don't do this on juice as there is no CO2 in juice, but even if we suspect that our juice may have started fermenting just a little bit before I get a chance to test it, it HAS TO BE vacuumed to get rid of the dissolved CO2. In other words, your beer already has CO2 in it before you put it in the keg, and would have to give up the CO2 to be able to absorb any O2.

Thanks for the long note, but it does make sense that the beer going into the keg would have to give up some of the CO2 to take in the O2.

 

[MaryB]

I use a small oil less air compressor for keg cleaning. It has a water/oil trap on the line so the air is clean. Fill keg(I do it lid off with a hose into the keg. Then purge the head space only with CO2 before I seal the lid down. In the 2 minutes or so it takes to fill a keg the beer is not going to soak up that much o2!

Purging kegs of oxygen by pushing out a full keg of StarSan is pretty standard practice on these forums these days. Anything less and you are introducing a lot of oxygen to your beer when you rack to the keg.

I just push the StarSan from one keg to the next keg in line. It continually gets recycled into a new keg, it'll last for months before I dump it and make a fresh solution to use. I'd argue I'm using less StarSan using this method compared to mixing up a batch each time I want to sanitize a keg. It does use up a bunch of CO2 though.

 

[seabrew8]

I just looked up 34/70 and fermentis states its high flocculation? No sure if its been mentioned. Most of my batches have been crystal clear. The ones that were not was sugar primed in the keg.

 

[STMF]

CO2 is heavier than air and settles in the bottoms of the tank, so when we start moving wine in there, through the bottom valve, the wine level moves the CO2 up in the tank and finally out the top, or if not filled completely, it pushes out the CO2 but forms a blanket of CO2 over the wine.

With kegging, if you purge your kegs with CO2 with the "IN" side for about 20 seconds, leaving the pressure release valve up (or the tank lid loose) and disconnect the "IN" side CO2 line your keg has CO2 in it. If you fill your keg like I do, using a tube that goes to the bottom of the keg, and fill from the bottom up, I rest assured that I am not introducing oxygen into my beer.

It is a nice and convenient theory but unfortunatly it is not true in reality.

There is no "CO2-blanket". It is a myth. Gases mix.

 

[applescrap]

There is a lodo no oxy thread for this. Would anyone be opposed if I asked a mod to move the no oxygen discussion there?

 

[TANSTAAFB]

There is a lodo no oxy thread for this. Would anyone be opposed if I asked a mod to move the no oxygen discussion there?

Nope!

 

[TheHopfather]

There is a lodo no oxy thread for this. Would anyone be opposed if I asked a mod to move the no oxygen discussion there?

Nope. I contributed to derailing this thread with oxygen talk, sorry about that. Back on topic.

 

[seabrew8]

Nope. I contributed to derailing this thread with oxygen talk, sorry about that. Back on topic.

Your a hop head? you like lagers?

 

[bradleypariah]

Your a hop head? you like lagers?

I realize you were asking Hopfather, not me, but if I may interject - my home brewing habit has led me to some unwanted weight gain. I've tried to adjust my palate back to lagers so that I can better brew them. I'm used to heavy beers, but double amber IPAs can have upwards of 50 grams of carbohydrates per beer. Most "low-carb" diets, not including Keto, say to stay below 50g per day. That's what I'm shooting for. Keep in mind, even green beans have 6g of carbs per serving, so if I eat nothing but salad all day, then drink a single Hop Stoopid, I'm already over my daily intake, and if I can help it, I'd rather eat around 20g a day.

I recently cloned Sam Adams Black Lager, which is about 13g of carbs per beer. That was tasty. I now have an Anchor Steam clone in the basement, and that's about 16 carbs per beer.

I'm essentially on what they call "the Oktoberfest diet." I eat sausage, chicken, and vegetables, but no significant carbs to speak of other than lager.

My next batch will be my take on Henry Weinhard's Private Reserve, and that'll take me down to 9g of carbs per beer, and I'll tweak that over time to try to emulate an authentic German lager.

The challenge will be making a homebrew with enough flavor that rivals the carb content of Natty Lite - 3g per beer, or Michelob Ultra, which has only 2.6g per beer. I had a Natty Lite the other day (my friend gave me one), and while I could say something snobby here, let's just say it didn't do it for me. Swilling Private Reserve makes me feel like a redneck with his pinky finger out, but it basically does it for me. IMO, it's better than Bud, it's better than Miller, or pretty much any big name lager, and it's almost indistinguishable from Ninkasi's Helles Bells.

There is such a thing as an IPL - India Pale Lager, so as a hop head, this is something that is also in my home brew future. I can add as many floral hops as I want in a hop stand, and my beer will be delicious, but not impact my waistline so drastically. Would I rather have a double amber IPA? Yeah, probably, but a good lager can be delicious too, and staying healthy means living longer for my wife and sticking around for more beer!

This thread is helpful because I plan to continue my lager trend as my basement warms up.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I realize you were asking Hopfather, not me, but if I may interject - my home brewing habit has led me to some unwanted weight gain. I've tried to adjust my palate back to lagers so that I can better brew them. I'm used to heavy beers, but double amber IPAs can have upwards of 50 grams of carbohydrates per beer. Most "low-carb" diets, not including Keto, say to stay below 50g per day. That's what I'm shooting for. Keep in mind, even green beans have 6g of carbs per serving, so if I eat nothing but salad all day, then drink a single Hop Stoopid, I'm already over my daily intake, and if I can help it, I'd rather eat around 20g a day.

I recently cloned Sam Adams Black Lager, which is about 13g of carbs per beer. That was tasty. I now have an Anchor Steam clone in the basement, and that's about 16 carbs per beer.

I'm essentially on what they call "the Oktoberfest diet." I eat sausage, chicken, and vegetables, but no significant carbs to speak of other than lager.

My next batch will be my take on Henry Weinhard's Private Reserve, and that'll take me down to 9g of carbs per beer, and I'll tweak that over time to try to emulate an authentic German lager.

The challenge will be making a homebrew with enough flavor that rivals the carb content of Natty Lite - 3g per beer, or Michelob Ultra, which has only 2.6g per beer. I had a Natty Lite the other day (my friend gave me one), and while I could say something snobby here, let's just say it didn't do it for me. Swilling Private Reserve makes me feel like a redneck with his pinky finger out, but it basically does it for me. IMO, it's better than Bud, it's better than Miller, or pretty much any big name lager, and it's almost indistinguishable from Ninkasi's Helles Bells.

There is such a thing as an IPL - India Pale Lager, so as a hop head, this is something that is also in my home brew future. I can add as many floral hops as I want in a hop stand, and my beer will be delicious, but not impact my waistline so drastically. Would I rather have a double amber IPA? Yeah, probably, but a good lager can be delicious too, and staying healthy means living longer for my wife and sticking around for more beer!

This thread is helpful because I plan to continue my lager trend as my basement warms up.

I also try to keep the carbs in check. I've got major back issues and am still at the beginning of PT recovering from surgery. Where are you getting your carb estimates? That is something I have looked for so I can brew accordingly but have been unable to find a decent source for even commercial brews.

 

[triethylborane]

I realize you were asking Hopfather, not me, but if I may interject - my home brewing habit has led me to some unwanted weight gain. I've tried to adjust my palate back to lagers so that I can better brew them. I'm used to heavy beers, but double amber IPAs can have upwards of 50 grams of carbohydrates per beer. Most "low-carb" diets, not including Keto, say to stay below 50g per day. That's what I'm shooting for. Keep in mind, even green beans have 6g of carbs per serving, so if I eat nothing but salad all day, then drink a single Hop Stoopid, I'm already over my daily intake, and if I can help it, I'd rather eat around 20g a day.

I recently cloned Sam Adams Black Lager, which is about 13g of carbs per beer. That was tasty. I now have an Anchor Steam clone in the basement, and that's about 16 carbs per beer.

I'm essentially on what they call "the Oktoberfest diet." I eat sausage, chicken, and vegetables, but no significant carbs to speak of other than lager.

What about healthy exercise? A program of weight training with some limited cardio plus a decent diet could avoid this sort of stuff you are putting yourself through. Giving your hormones a purpose, such as insulin - the most anabolic hormone, with weight training is a better ticket than aimlessness though the litany of diets. Keto is a diet for those who are completely desperate (obese, insulin resistant, etc) or for sophisticated athletes who know how to undertake programmed food consumption.

Ofest diet sounds great for when on a bulk cycle with some "supplements." I might look into that.

 

[bradleypariah]

Where are you getting your carb estimates?

I just Google "beer X carbs". Some sites disagree on carb count, so I might do a bit of averaging.

What about healthy exercise

I know what works for me. I'm a big dude with a large frame. I've gained weight before, and I've been skinny. I tend to yo-yo. I'm not offering weight loss advice necessarily. I know my body responds well to low-carb diets, and hardly responds at all to walking/exercise/etc. I don't feel like spinning my wheels. I'm 40, cranky, and impatient.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I just Google "beer X carbs". Some sites disagree on carb count, so I might do a bit of averaging.



I know what works for me. I'm a big dude with a large frame. I've gained weight before, and I've been skinny. I tend to yo-yo. I'm not offering weight loss advice necessarily. I know my body responds well to low-carb diets, and hardly responds at all to walking/exercise/etc. I don't feel like spinning my wheels. I'm 40, cranky, and impatient.

Are you my F'n lost twin?! 40, cranky, impatient, big dude, respond to low carb if I'm consistent, beer and tortillas are my weight nemesis[emoji482]

Damn, was hoping you found something I had missed. Sorry to get off track folks, back to your regularly scheduled programming!

 

[triethylborane]

I know what works for me. I'm a big dude with a large frame. I've gained weight before, and I've been skinny. I tend to yo-yo. I'm not offering weight loss advice necessarily. I know my body responds well to low-carb diets, and hardly responds at all to walking/exercise/etc. I don't feel like spinning my wheels. I'm 40, cranky, and impatient.

k.

TRT maybe?

 

[applescrap]

No problem here, I am glad people are meeting up and the lodo is interesting, but its such a cool and heavily questioned process, I dont want to bury that.

 

[Miraculix]

Guys, this is the warm fermented lager thread.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Very interesting and informative discussion about yeast. After listening I agree with Drew, I am appropriately confused! https://www.experimentalbrew.com/podcast/episode-59-yeast-mysteries-sui-generis

 

[LLBrewer]

Regardless of the fermentation temperature, can it honestly be called a lager if it is not stored at 30-40 degrees F. for at least some period of time post fermentation? After all, to lager means to store.

And it you have the ability to lager it, you should also have the ability to ferment it at 50-55 degrees, so I fail to see any sound logic in warm fermenting what is to be called a lager. Warm ferment, and then forego the cold storage (lagering) period, and what you have on your hands is an ale.

I don't think the term lager implies any fermentation temperatures at all. IIRC, it's a characteristic/strain of yeast used.

 

[bradleypariah]

Guys, this is the warm fermented lager thread.

seabrew8 started it!!!

Are you my F'n lost twin?!

 

[TANSTAAFB]

LMAO! Ok, but I get to be the hot one[emoji16]

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I don't think the term lager implies any fermentation temperatures at all. IIRC, it's a characteristic/strain of yeast used.

Check out the podcast. With DNA sequencing it is starting to come to light that what we thought of as lager strains (Saccharomyces pastorianus) are actually hybrids of what we think of as ale strains (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) and relatively recently discovered Saccharomyces eubayanus. Saccharomyces eubayanus was first found in Patagonia where it was thought to have originated but now looks like it might have actually originated in Tibet (according to Dave Carpenter, the guest on the podcast)! See, appropriately confused [emoji85] [emoji86] [emoji87]

 

[LLBrewer]

Check out the podcast. With DNA sequencing it is starting to come to light that what we thought of as lager strains (Saccharomyces pastorianus) are actually hybrids of what we think of as ale strains (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) and relatively recently discovered Saccharomyces eubayanus. Saccharomyces eubayanus was first found in Patagonia where it was thought to have originated but now looks like it might have actually originated in Tibet (according to Dave Carpenter, the guest on the podcast)! See, appropriately confused [emoji85] [emoji86] [emoji87]

I was just listening this morning on the way into work. It's the first episode I've listened to. I like it!

 

[Miraculix]

Yep, @Northern_Brewer brought this topic up in another thread I think. As beer fermented with 800 apparently tastes like lager, it would be fun to see if it stays that way when fermented at ale temperature.

Just to quote myself, I bought some WLP 800 "lager" yeast (genetic research did show that it is actually an ale yeast) and will do a Schwarzbier with it as soon as my main fermenter is free, which will be in aproximately 2 weeks time. Got a historic english IPA in there made of Chavellier, Pilsner, Bittering hops and Saaz with NBS Classic english ale yeast, which is supposed to be the Mauribrew Ale 514 "English Ale" (AB Mauri Y514) repacked. Took off like a bomb within a few hours!

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Just to quote myself, I bought some WLP 800 "lager" yeast (genetic research did show that it is actually an ale yeast) and will do a Schwarzbier with it as soon as my main fermenter is free, which will be in aproximately 2 weeks time. Got a historic english IPA in there made of Chavellier, Pilsner, Bittering hops and Saaz with NBS Classic english ale yeast, which is supposed to be the Mauribrew Ale 514 "English Ale" (AB Mauri Y514) repacked. Took off like a bomb within a few hours!

Love to hear your thoughts on the Chavellier and historic recipe. I've heard some comments here and there but nothing definitive. Some said it was overwhelming when used as the only base malt. What proportions did you go with?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Check out the podcast. With DNA sequencing it is starting to come to light that what we thought of as lager strains (Saccharomyces pastorianus) are actually hybrids of what we think of as ale strains (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) and relatively recently discovered Saccharomyces eubayanus. Saccharomyces eubayanus was first found in Patagonia where it was thought to have originated but now looks like it might have actually originated in Tibet (according to Dave Carpenter, the guest on the podcast)! See, appropriately confused [emoji85] [emoji86] [emoji87]

Eubayanus will turn up in Europe, we just haven't found it yet. People went through hoops to try and explain how the "Japanese" yeast S. kudriavzevii could have hybridised to form certain European wine yeasts because they couldn't find it in European vineyards - and then they found it on oak trees in Europe. Those same trees that were being cut down to make wine barrels and corks...

Further sequencing has revealed that people are making commercial lager with anything from normal ale yeasts to close relatives of saison yeast - the whole idea of lager requiring a eubayanus hybrid no longer applies. And as this thread has seen, you can make good lager at warm temperatures. So if you don't need cold and you don't need eubayanus hybrids, the whole idea of trying to define "lager" starts to look a bit futile. Like porn, you know it when you see it - it tastes like Bavarian/Czech beers made with pilsner malt, noble hops, with eubayanus hybrid yeast at low temperatures - but none of those are an absolute requirement.