Super Cyser??

[JDXX1971]

Hello all!!! My wife and I have just started brewing. We have done five-six gallon batches of cider so far and already drank/gave away two of them. I picked up five pounds of cheap honey a couple of weeks ago and my wife bought six gallons of Mott,s all natural apple juice on sale. So together they went along with some D254 yeast and yeast starter More Beer had sent me for free. That was a week ago.
Starting gravity off the Mott,s juice was 1.050 with 5 pounds of honey it was 1.067. D254 yeast is supposed to be able to ferment to 16% ABV. So I thought lets do it!!! Today I bought ten more pounds of honey (cheap stuff like before) I am guessing that will bring the gravity to around 1.102.
This has been fermenting for five days and is quite active. Will I be ok to just mix in the additional ten pounds of honey?? Should I add yeast nutrient??? Will this be enough to get to 16%??? Or am I just nuts?????? Seems Like a lot of honey

 

[lukebuz]

Sure! Just dump away. Beware, I made an 18% staged sugar addition wine, and its nasty man. You want 5 gallons of nasty headache juice? Or 5 gallons of delicious (spiced?) apple wine? eh?

 

[JDXX1971]

Thanks, but it is too late!!!!!, we added ten more pounds of honey and two pounds of brown sugar!!!!!!!!!! I sure hope it will be good..........someday. So far it is continuing to work happily away. I wonder if and when it will be necessary to add more yeast nutrient? Like I said before we are quite new to brewing so I thought what the heck!!!

 

[oldmate]

I would probably add some nutrient asap, search the mead forum for 'staggered nutrient addition' and 'step feeding', some reading might help. Make sure you dissolve the nutrient in some warm water before you add it, otherwise you will have mead gush everywhere.

 

[Maylar]

Add the nutrient now. Once the must has fermented to about 9% ABV the yeast can't assimilate it.

 

[JDXX1971]

Thanks you guys, we did start the step feeding with Fermaid O last night before bed.
I have been reading and reading and................. Drives my wife nuts how much I research the things we are interested in.
Our og was 1.067 five days later it was 1.040, after our new addition of ten pounds of honey and two pounds brown sugar the new reading is 1.096. I assume to estimate abv I would subtract the new abv potential of 5 from the original reading of 9 = 4% then add that to the new reading of 12.5% potential = 16.5% total???????

 

[Maylar]

You increased s.g. by 56 points (1.040 to 1.096) which would have made the initial gravity 1.123, a potential of 16.1%.

Keep it aerated and keep the temperature under 80°F.

 

[JDXX1971]

Makes perfect sense. I was looking at the potential ABV scale on my hydrometer and doing the math from that which was close.
Definitely wont get too hot here, it has been in the 60's for days. (coastal N.Ca) How often should I aerate? Once daily when I feed it the next couple of days, or more often? Also for how long? At what point do I stop? 1/3 sugar break?
Thanks for the help, with all my reading it is so easy to get confused with too much information.

 

[JDXX1971]

Assuming that the yeast will die off around 16% ABV and that is exactly where the potential is at now I need to add more sugars if I want any residual sugar. Or I could back sweeten later? Does the ABV reliably kill off the yeast? I would like something that could be bottle stable and not necessarily carbonated, though we have kegs and a keezer and could go that route too. we might try several things, splitting the batch, especially since we have around 8 eight gallons total now.

 

[Yooper]

Assuming that the yeast will die off around 16% ABV and that is exactly where the potential is at now I need to add more sugars if I want any residual sugar. Or I could back sweeten later? Does the ABV reliably kill off the yeast? I would like something that could be bottle stable and not necessarily carbonated, though we have kegs and a keezer and could go that route too. we might try several things, splitting the batch, especially since we have around 8 eight gallons total now.

A happy fermentation may go beyond 16%. You'd have to wait and see how it ends up, and if you need more sweetness you can add more honey then.

Once the fermentation stops due to alcohol toxicity, it will not restart. It will not be bottle carbonated.

 

[JDXX1971]

A happy fermentation may go beyond 16%. You'd have to wait and see how it ends up, and if you need more sweetness you can add more honey then.

Once the fermentation stops due to alcohol toxicity, it will not restart. It will not be bottle carbonated.

Thank you for clarifying that for me.

SOOOOOOO......... I think I would like to add another five pounds of honey putting my potential ABV high enough to be sure the fermentation stops due to alcohol toxicity and not due to running out of sugar. I estimate that would put me at 18.5 % +/-.

 

[Maylar]

Then there's the unhappy fermentation... Depending on temperature, nutrients, and the health of the yeast it might quit before 16%. I would wait until the gravity gets down just below where you want it to end and add small amounts of honey until the yeast quits.

 

[Yooper]

Then there's the unhappy fermentation... Depending on temperature, nutrients, and the health of the yeast it might quit before 16%. I would wait until the gravity gets down just below where you want it to end and add small amounts of honey until the yeast quits.

Exactly. If the yeast poops at at 12% for some reason, it'd be almost impossible to get started again and then it'd be unbearably sweet.

Usually, the best course of action in wine or mead making is to "wait a little".

When you taste the cyser, you may find it's too acidic and needs some tannin. Or, too tannic and needs some acidity. Or neither.

One big risk you take by adding all that fermentable sugar now is that you can end up with sweet hot rocket fuel. Just wait. You can always add more honey later, but you can't take it out.

 

[JDXX1971]

Thanks you guy's/gal's, I think I will wait for the end and see where it is at. Definitely exciting all this brewing and all the possibilities. I cant wait to get a little more equipment and brew some beer too! I will report back here with the progress of our cyser and more questions I am sure to have.

 

[JDXX1971]

Our cyser is coming right along.
I just added my second dose of yeast nutrient. I was supposed to do it last night so it is a little late. I stirred it to degas and stirred in the re-hydrated nutrients, I also shook it up a good bit as I did yesterday several times. The sg is down to 1.077 in a day and a half so I figure 1/3 sugar break is coming soon. Is it going too fast? The temperature is at 65*. D254 yeast temperature range is 53-82. 65 seems like a good mid point. I tasted a bit, at 6% it is sweet,sweet sweet for sure. But I kinda liked it.

 

[Greghark]

You've probably got enough honey already. I make a high octane recipe for a5 gallon batch that uses 4 pounds of honey and 4 pounds of brown sugar. The result is nothing like a drinking cider. It is very alcoholic with a lot more body, and drinks more like a port. Be advised that typically, higher gravity brews tend to take longer to develop and finish. So relax already. Find a closet or somewhere to stash the carboy and let it sit without you staring at it and fiddling with it. This is going to take a few months before it is really good.

Also, it won't carbonate so plan on a flat drink served best chilled. It should have a good honey aroma and taste when it is done.

 

[WVMJ]

When we do this kind of ferment, we let the SG go down to like 1.010, then add just enough honey or sugar to bring it back to around 1.020, let it ferment that down again to 1.010, and repeat until it wont go down any further, rack and add the rest to the SG we want. The racking gets rid of a lot of your yeast and the ones left are either worn our or supper warriors so give them some month in the closet to find out which ones you have WVMJ

 

[JDXX1971]

So relax already. Find a closet or somewhere to stash the carboy and let it sit without you staring at it and fiddling with it.

I am almost ready to stash it away and forget about it (for a few days). I am still step feeding it nutrient.
This morning the sg is 1.066 1/3 sugar break is at 1.062. I am not sure if I should give it its last dose of nutrient at 1/3 sugar break or make this mornings feeding the last one, and if so should I give it all of the nutrients in this dose.

 

[JDXX1971]

When we do this kind of ferment, we let the SG go down to like 1.010, then add just enough honey or sugar to bring it back to around 1.020, let it ferment that down again to 1.010, and repeat until it wont go down any further, rack and add the rest to the SG we want. The racking gets rid of a lot of your yeast and the ones left are either worn our or supper warriors so give them some month in the closet to find out which ones you have WVMJ

This is exactly our plan, I was wondering how much to let it run down and bring it back up to. Those numbers are pretty close to what I was thinking.
I know it is super subjective but what do you all think is a good finishing sg for 16% cycer?

 

[WVMJ]

1.020-1.040, depends on your taste and the style and the kind of honey you use and how intense it is, think about adding some oak, makes a differnce, not to much though, WVMJ

 

[JDXX1971]

1.020-1.040, depends on your taste and the style and the kind of honey you use and how intense it is, think about adding some oak, makes a differnce, not to much though, WVMJ

We will probably try for the lower end of that sg. I dunno though, whatever my wife thinks probably. I am told a woman has a more sensitive palate.
I have some heavy roast french oak chips that More Beer sent as free extras when I received our fermenters. Would these work? How much is too much? When would you add the oak and for how long?

 

[JDXX1971]

I am thinking of other possibility's other than honey to finish this batch with. I tested the sg this morning before work (1.055) and tasted a tiny little bit. I think the honey I used is going to leave a strong enough flavor without adding any more. I am seriously considering using apple juice concentrate to boost the apple flavor at the end.

Whatcha all think???

 

[Maylar]

Too early to tell. Give it more time, the taste will change.

 

[Jwin]

AJC would be a good idea in my opinion. Your have lots of raw sugar in there and it may get really dry and hot. Between the fusel and honey you may not even taste any apple once done. Just try to keep the temp in the low 60s as you mentioned.
I'm not an advocate of secondarys but you may want to consider it. Just use proper sanitation technique and minimal headspace. My last cider got an acetobacter infection I believe. Turned to vinegar while bulk aging.
Acetobacter is everywhere. It requires o2 to propagate. If you do secondary this, be sure to rack it before fermentation is over to drive off o2. The two most frequent mistakes with a secondary is racking late and excess headspace.
You'll need to age this one way or another. Doing so in secondary will help prevent the possibility for bottle bombs.

 

[JDXX1971]

Tested sg again this morning, 48 hours has it down 15 points to 1.040. So it is slowing down, I am guessing it will be at least five days to get to around 1.010, but I am just guessing. I tasted it again and it sure is changing as it does it thing. Not sure how to put words to the tastes I am getting, I need to train my tongue and my vocabulary. Off to work I go, more on this later......

 

[JDXX1971]

Hello again,
I got a little time off today so I thought I would ask another question.

When it is time to add the finishing sugar, honey or AJC how do I go about it? Do I just open up the carboy (Speidel 30L) and dump it in without stirring or should it be stirred in? Maybe add c02 to fill the head space and then stir? Seems like I would have to mix it in to get an accurate sg reading at least for the first addition, so I know how much sugars to add. I don't want to mess it up by introducing oxygen at that late stage in fermentation.

 

[Maylar]

At the stage of bottling or kegging, yup you have to stir it. I try to be as gentle as possible like stirring a hot pot of soup. You're at the end of the process at that point, so it is what it is.

 

[JDXX1971]

At the stage of bottling or kegging, yup you have to stir it. I try to be as gentle as possible like stirring a hot pot of soup. You're at the end of the process at that point, so it is what it is.

Thanks Maylar,

Actually I am referring to when I add sugars to bring it to the limits of the yeasts alcohol tolerance. I will not be kegging or bottling at that time, probably racking to a secondary to allow the cyser to clear after I get to my desired final gravity.

 

[Maylar]

When I've done that I stirred honey into a cyser, gently. I figured stirring up the lees would help keep the yeast in suspension too. I didn't like the idea of having a blob of honey sitting on the bottom of the fermentor. Though I've read that the yeast will find it anyway, so it's your call.

 

[MindenMan]

As said before acetobacter is everywhere. Do stir as gently as possible when adding any more nutrients. If you secondary this batch keep the head space to the bare minimum to prevent infection.

 

[Jwin]

And move to secondary before fermentation is over. You want a few gravity points left to scrub o2 out from transfer

 

[MindenMan]

Jwin is correct. Unless you have a way to CO2 blanket your fermenter, rack to secondary before all the yeasties have died.

 

[JDXX1971]

Hello again,

Thank you everybody for the replies. Definitely helps me decide what to do.

Tested and tasted again just now, the sg is 1.025. Sure is getting strong!! I had my wife taste it with me and........ There is a bit of a bitter taste but a lot less than the last time I tasted it. At the current sg we can taste plenty of flavors from the honey and brown sugar I put in. There is definitely a strong alcohol bite and aftertaste. My wife likened the aftertaste to a clean alcohol like vodka. I did not get much apple flavor but my wife could taste it but thinks it would be nice with more. So the current plan is that will be finishing with Langers ajc.

We do have C02 on hand so I think we will finish all fermenting in the primary 30L Speidel and then rack under pressure to a purged 20L speidel. Not that I have done it before, but I am sure I have enough parts to figure something out.

Since this batch is so big and will grow more with the ajc additions I am going to have to figure out what to put the extras in. We have a one gallon glass jug, I will probably grab another and put the extra in those. Then my wife and I can each have one to experiment with. I want to try some oak in one to see if I want to oak the whole batch. I am a bit leery after reading up on adding oak. Cinnamon sounds good too but my wife does not like it. So I will probably use my test jug to try the oak. Who knows what she will do with hers??????

 

[Maylar]

Besides cinnamon, there's nutmeg, cloves, and cardamon that go well in cyser. Very small amounts (especially clove) of whole spices, not powdered.

 

[JDXX1971]

Tested SG today at 1.017. I have to work tomorrow so I went ahead and added three 11.5 oz. cans of FAJC. This brought the SG up to 1.023 (maybe a little more).
Being as the cyser is still fermenting at a good steady rate I did not worry about oxygen contamination and just gently stirred the FAJC in with a sterilized spoon. Hopefully everything will be ok.
I plan to test the SG again in 2-3 days as long as the airlock is still pumping away. When it drops back down to 1.015 +\- I will add three more cans of FAJC. My FG target is 1.025 or so. I will top up the FG with the concentrate or maybe more honey once the yeast have reached their alcohol tolerance. After that it will be racked into a purged secondary with very little head space.

This sure has been a fun batch of brew. I have learned a bunch from the process so far. From our taste test it seems like it will be very drinkable. Waiting for it to age is going to be the hard part.

 

[JDXX1971]

Getting closer!!!!!!!!!!! We added four more cans of FAJC today to bring the sg back up to 1.025 from 1.017. By my calculations we should be at 15% or so now. D254's tolerance is 16%, we will see how far it goes.

 

[JDXX1971]

So a Recap,

Sept 17, 6 gallons Mott's all natural AJ, 5 pounds Wild Mnt. honey, 1\2 cup lemon juice and D254 yeast with Ferm Protect with a o.g. of 1.067.

Sept. 22, s.g. 1.040 Added 10 lbs. WM honey and 2 lbs. brown sugar new s.g. 1.096.

Did a three day nutrient feeding of Fermaid O.

Oct. 4, s.g. 1.017 added 3- 11.5 oz cans Langers FAJC. new s.g. 1.023.

Oct 7, s.g. 1.017 added 4- 11.5 oz cans Langers FAJC. new s.g. 1.025.

Oct 9, s.g. 1.021 added 3- 11.5 oz cans Langers FAJC. new s.g. 1.027. So...

1.067
.056
.006
.008
+ .006

= 1.143 O.G.

Oct. 11 (right now) s.g. 1.024 which should put it near 16% now!!! I am hoping it will stop soon as I am out of things to put in this brew.

I guess I will have to go buy some more FAJC just in case it decides to keep on going.

 

[JDXX1971]

Down to 1.020 for approximately 16.5% this morning and still bubbling happily away.
I am thinking to put it in a 20L Speidel for secondary soon, there wont be any room to add any more sugars if need be though. So I am gonna leave it alone for now.

How far will it go??????????

Place your bets

I am going to feed it sugar until it dies.

 

[Jwin]

Just be careful as the bubbling in your airlock could just be off gassing throwing you off and you'll end up with a super super sweet Boosie and you'll end up with a super super sweet boozy mess

 

[JDXX1971]

Just be careful as the bubbling in your airlock could just be off gassing throwing you off and you'll end up with a super super sweet Boosie and you'll end up with a super super sweet boozy mess

Yeah I thought about that, so far the s.g. is still dropping. I am not going to add anything else until the s.g. drops near 1.010. I have 3 more cans of FAJC ready to add if needed, which should raise the s.g. about 6 points. I think I will just let it be wherever it finishes for aging. I just want to be sure the yeast have sugar available until they reach alcohol toxicity.