Should I "Rethink" Hop Additions?

[Morrey]

I am brewing a Cream Ale for which I have the recipe memorized....meaning this is an old standby recipe I brew regularly. There is a total of two ounces of low AA% hops both added at 60 minute full boil. This recipe has been around for years and that's the way hops have "always" been added.

Recently, I have brewed beautiful beers resulting from late hop additions at flameout, hop stands and cooler temp whirlpools. I do readily admit these are focused on beers such as IPA's where I am looking for hop goodness w/o harsh bittering.

With this said, would I benefit from modifying my hop addition in a beer such as this 15 IBU Cream Ale? I hesitate to blindly modify hop additions due to the delicate balance the Willamette and Crystal hops offer at 60 minutes. I suppose I could back off the bittering additions and use BeerSmith to help me get to the IBU goal with late additions. Is it worth it to reinvent the wheel (with a beer like this) or simply press forward as is?

Thanks for input.

 

[Yooper]

Well, the right answer here has to be "it depends"!

What I mean is, I would love it with the later hops as I love hops flavor and aroma even in a lighter beer like a cream ale. For someone like my dad, who was drinking a Genessee Cream Ale up until the minute he died (no exaggeration- he had a beer opened right there when he was found), he would be appalled!

My dad loved loved loved my cream ale- but almost no hops flavor at all. He and my brother came for a visit and kicked the keg in a matter of hours. Then they went and bought Bud Light for the rest of the week, and wouldn't touch my pale ale or other beers on tap.

I'm sharing that story, mostly because I miss my dad and he was my dearest friend, but also there is a point! Really the beauty of a recipe is in the eyes of the beerholder. Someone who lives craft beers with flavor and aroma will love a slightly hoppier flavor and aroma. Someone who likes light cream ales or light lagers probably would not.

 

[Revvy]

Well, the right answer here has to be "it depends"!

What I mean is, I would love it with the later hops as I love hops flavor and aroma even in a lighter beer like a cream ale. For someone like my dad, who was drinking a Genessee Cream Ale up until the minute he died (no exaggeration- he had a beer opened right there when he was found), he would be appalled!

My dad loved loved loved my cream ale- but almost no hops flavor at all. He and my brother came for a visit and kicked the keg in a matter of hours. Then they went and bought Bud Light for the rest of the week, and wouldn't touch my pale ale or other beers on tap.

I'm sharing that story, mostly because I miss my dad and he was my dearest friend, but also there is a point! Really the beauty of a recipe is in the eyes of the beerholder. Someone who lives craft beers with flavor and aroma will love a slightly hoppier flavor and aroma. Someone who likes light cream ales or light lagers probably would not.

So what are your hopping regimens for the two versions of your cream ale- the one your dad liked, and the hoppier one you might make for yourself?

 

[jdonley]

I was in the same position you were in with my standard Cream ale recipe. I would use 1 oz of Saaz (%8 AA) as my only addition and it was a FW. I wanted to tinker with it for the same reason you mentioned. So I got on brewers friend and messed around with the timing of the additions and the estimated IBU's they would get me. Ended up doing 60-20-10 (1/2 oz, 1/4 oz, 1/4 oz) additions all with just the one oz of Saaz. I loved it, and the IBU's were similar to the original recipe with just a touch of hop flavor, nothing over the top

 

[hbhudy]

I will be brewing a cream Ale soon for the summer heat.. I like a little bit of hop flavor and do something similar to what jdonley mentioned above but my additions after 60 are 30 & 5. I love Sterling or Perle hops for my lighter beers that only need a little flavor.. BUT I also typically have have some Vienna in all my lighter brews as well to keep some malty flavor as well[emoji15]

 

[Yooper]

So what are your hopping regimens for the two versions of your cream ale- the one your dad liked, and the hoppier one you might make for yourself?

My dad's favorite:

4 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) 38.6 %
4 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 7 38.6 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Corn, Flaked (1.3 SRM) Grain 8 14.5 %
14.0 oz Rice, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 9 8.4 %
1.00 oz Williamette [4.80 %] - Boil 90.0 min Hop 10 14.7 IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale US-05 (Fermentis #US-05) Yeast 11 -
Est Original Gravity: 1.056 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.5 %
Bitterness: 14.7 IBUs
Est Color: 3.1 SRM

I just started adding more hops for myself, at 15 and 0, and changed the bittering hop to magnum. I like cascade and amarillo there (1 ounce each), but I also have been playing with the newer hops like azacca and mandarina bavaria for those late additions. I also changed up the yeast, and really like Wyeast 1272 with it.

 

[Morrey]

Good inputs! Yooper ^^^^ my recipe is darn close to yours dad's with the addition of a bit of Crystal hops at 60 for a total of 15 IBU. I use US-05 too....very good! My wife loves this beer since she likes to use it as a base. She'll add/blend a splash of this or a dash of that. She is a "blending" type of beer drinker. Her input also plays into my brewing decision.

One question I have is: When delicate aroma hops are used at full boil, how much hop aroma or flavor is actually left over in the finished product?? If the answer is "not much" what would keep me from using a bit of hop bittering extract from Yakima? It would be cheaper. And as our discussion has led us, I could go a bit low on the bittering side, then add some flavor/aroma hops at 20, 10 or 5, etc. I know some folks may balk at alternative bittering extracts but if they do the same thing as a more expensive hop only cheaper, why not?

 

[bruhaha]

I have noted that the more delicate hops are noted as "Flavor or Aroma" hops and showcase their best qualities when used more toward that latter stages of the boil. So, I would guess that you get the bittering quality with a 60 boil but lose most of the nose you'd have gotten late addition.

Those hop bittering oils are pretty decent and I have used the ISO Alpha bitterling oils to adjust a beer I missed the mark on. The drawback is you have no hop character from this bittering addition. But that may not matter since you'll be using later addition hops to give you those characteristics you mentioned. If you try BeerSmith (you may use that already) it will help you adjust your IBU's to meet your goal. I'd say give it a try.

One last thought....have you looked at Brulosophy to see if they have done side by side experiments to see if this alternative bittering method is notable?

 

[Yooper]

Good inputs! Yooper ^^^^ my recipe is darn close to yours dad's with the addition of a bit of Crystal hops at 60 for a total of 15 IBU. I use US-05 too....very good! My wife loves this beer since she likes to use it as a base. She'll add/blend a splash of this or a dash of that. She is a "blending" type of beer drinker. Her input also plays into my brewing decision.

One question I have is: When delicate aroma hops are used at full boil, how much hop aroma or flavor is actually left over in the finished product?? If the answer is "not much" what would keep me from using a bit of hop bittering extract from Yakima? It would be cheaper. And as our discussion has led us, I could go a bit low on the bittering side, then add some flavor/aroma hops at 20, 10 or 5, etc. I know some folks may balk at alternative bittering extracts but if they do the same thing as a more expensive hop only cheaper, why not?

Bittering hops can be quite cheap. You'd need like .25 ounce of magnum, for example, and the rest can be vacu-sealed and tossed in the freezer. I buy them by the pound, and something like $8 per pound (and the willamette was cheaper than that- that's why I used it in that recipe).

Some bittering hops do impart some characteristics- columbus and chinook are notably harsher, for example. But if you use a "clean" neutral bittering hop, you can use very little of it and get a cheap way to bitter beers.

 

[gommy]

Just curious that ale recipe is it a ten gallon or five thanks

 

[bajaedition]

Morrey, the reason I am getting those text books on hops I told you about is I am about to go down that path.

It means I am going do a lot of the same beer, but I am going try every thing from first wort hopping to additions after flame out to see how each effect the same baseline beer.

Yes go rethink hops, this can be a fascinating hobby.

 

[kh54s10]

One time I make a beer with only early additions and I love it.

Another time I make a beer with bittering additions and a lot of late additions and I love it.

I will also enjoy a cream ale, finish it and go get a heavy stout for the next one.... I have very broad tastes. The only style that I don't like is commercial BMC lagers. But a quality lager? Yes please.

I have yet to try a sour, except for one infected (I think) bottle.

 

[Yooper]

Just curious that ale recipe is it a ten gallon or five thanks

My recipe that I posted? Mine was for 5 gallons.

 

[ericbw]

Bittering hops can be quite cheap. You'd need like .25 ounce of magnum, for example, and the rest can be vacu-sealed and tossed in the freezer. I buy them by the pound, and something like $8 per pound (and the willamette was cheaper than that- that's why I used it in that recipe).



Some bittering hops do impart some characteristics- columbus and chinook are notably harsher, for example. But if you use a "clean" neutral bittering hop, you can use very little of it and get a cheap way to bitter beers.

Where are you getting willamette for less than $8/lb?

That's the one i buy a pound of.

 

[ericbw]

I think even light beer drinkers could like a dry hopped cream ale. First you expect bitter from the smell, but it's a nice surprise when it's just smooth and crisp.

Hops at 60/30/0 make it "round" and have depth. Just keep the bitterness low.

 

[Yooper]

Where are you getting willamette for less than $8/lb?

That's the one i buy a pound of.

It was a while ago- my dad died in 2013!

 

[balrog]

This really touched a nice nerve. My late father in law loved Genee and my first attempt at a cream ale didn't quite hit the mark, so thanks for providing the recipe, esp the 1272 mention.

 

[Agtronic]

Yooper, that was a nice story to read. Thanks for sharing. I am fortunate enough to have both my parents around and they both enjoy beer. Over the last 5 years, my dad went from drinking the Canadian versions of BMC to now loving the best IPAs and PAs, and my mother went from the same to now preferring German Pils. I'll be sure to cherish these moments.

 

[Ohiosean]

Reporting from the birth place of Little Kings--I love cream ale and have been doing my own experiments of late.

I should be keging a version this week and will know more about the final result soon. I've been making cream ale for about a year using cluster as the bittering hop. This last batch I opted to find out more about what cluster really has to offer as a flavoring hop so I threw two ounces in at flame out. Maybe it was a mistake because I don't ever see anyone using cluster for anything but boiling, but I'll try to post back and let you know. This past version was a little lighter in grain bill as the following:
6 lbs. 2 row
1.75 lbs. flaked corn
.25 lbs. victory
.2 caramel / crystal 20
Cluster--1/2 oz @ 60
Cluster--1/2 oz @ 5
Cluster--2 oz @ flame out

I used White Labs Kolsch AND US-05. This may also be an oddity, but the guy at the LBS was out of White Labs cream ale blend yeast and that combination was what he suggested as a replacement. Also--the original recipe I figured in 2 lbs. of corn, but they were nearly out when I went ingredient shopping and wound up with 1.75.

Late this week I'm planning a Stella clone for a get-together with friends who really like that beer. I'm going to ferment it as an ale because I don't have the temp control down. Probably use a Kolsch again. Any suggestions--let me know.

 

[Ohiosean]

And yes, Yooper--I enjoyed your story as well.

 

[ericbw]

Reporting from the birth place of Little Kings--I love cream ale and have been doing my own experiments of late.

I should be keging a version this week and will know more about the final result soon. I've been making cream ale for about a year using cluster as the bittering hop. This last batch I opted to find out more about what cluster really has to offer as a flavoring hop so I threw two ounces in at flame out. Maybe it was a mistake because I don't ever see anyone using cluster for anything but boiling, but I'll try to post back and let you know. This past version was a little lighter in grain bill as the following:
6 lbs. 2 row
1.75 lbs. flaked corn
.25 lbs. victory
.2 caramel / crystal 20
Cluster--1/2 oz @ 60
Cluster--1/2 oz @ 5
Cluster--2 oz @ flame out

I used White Labs Kolsch AND US-05. This may also be an oddity, but the guy at the LBS was out of White Labs cream ale blend yeast and that combination was what he suggested as a replacement. Also--the original recipe I figured in 2 lbs. of corn, but they were nearly out when I went ingredient shopping and wound up with 1.75.

Late this week I'm planning a Stella clone for a get-together with friends who really like that beer. I'm going to ferment it as an ale because I don't have the temp control down. Probably use a Kolsch again. Any suggestions--let me know.

I'm curious to ear how the Cluster hops work out late.

 

[Morrey]

Just curious that ale recipe is it a ten gallon or five thanks

I hesitate to speak for Yooper, but her Dad's recipes is almost identical to mine and mine makes 5.5G into fermenter.

EDIT: Sorry I just noted she had answered you already