Mash "cooler" and hot temp safety

[Strangebird]

So I've been researching coolers for mashing. I just went through the Igloo, Rubbermaid and Coleman websites looking for info on whether their 5 and 10 gallon beverage coolers are suitable for hot liquids. In the FAQ on the Igloo site it specifically says that they are not. The other two did not have the info on their websites so I have emails into the customer service departments asking what the acceptable temp range is. I am one of those people that has a general skepticism of plastics used with food/liquids (hence why I use glass carboys despite their weight/awkwardness).

I came across this type of container on Amazon which claims to be for hot liquids, but the distributor's website indicates that they use Bisphenol-A in many of their resins. Of course they refer people to bisphenola.org. Of course the research studyies listed on that site are by plastics/chemical industry organizations so I don't trust them as far as I can throw them.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000XATJ86/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I'm curious whether folks have any mash containers that came with a stated temp range that includes mash temps.

 

[Fletch78]

Not to be a smartass, but thousands, or hundreds of thousands, of people, are brewing with Igloos and Colemans, and have been for some time.

The stuff in beer that will kill you is the stuff you are trying to make: alcohol.

Your question is like asking if the cigarette paper is bleached or natural. If the cocaine is gas or ether based.

 

[Revvy]

I agree with fletch. You're not the first to have brought it up. But it's one of those things that is inconclusive, and since hundreds of thousands of gallons of beer has been done in them, we tend to shrug our shoulders and say, oh well....

 

[Fletch78]

Signature test...

 

[Strangebird]

Fair enough. But there are plenty of people that won't use a Better Bottle for similar reasons and that's involving the wort which has been cooled. I simply want to minimize exposure to possibly harmful chemicals as much as possible. If you choose not to, not my place to judge.

As for people who use these coolers for mashing, that's fine for them. But when a company like Igloo itself says not to use their own product for hot liquids, that at the very least scratches it off my list of acceptable options. They in fact specifically list their Cube cooler as acceptable for use with hot liquids. The only bummer about that one is that it doesn't appear (from the photo and info on their website - I haven't it in person) to have a drain hole.

Regardless, people can use whatever they want to. I'm not criticizing. But I will still look for the best option possible for my own criteria.

 

[Yooper]

Fair enough. But there are plenty of people that won't use a Better Bottle for similar reasons and that's involving the wort which has been cooled. I simply want to minimize exposure to possibly harmful chemicals as much as possible. If you choose not to, not my place to judge.

As for people who use these coolers for mashing, that's fine for them. But when a company like Igloo itself says not to use their own product for hot liquids, that at the very least scratches it off my list of acceptable options. They in fact specifically list their Cube cooler as acceptable for use with hot liquids. The only bummer about that one is that it doesn't appear (from the photo and info on their website - I haven't it in person) to have a drain hole.

Regardless, people can use whatever they want to. I'm not criticizing. But I will still look for the best option possible for my own criteria.

Of course, and that's exactly what you should do. I feel the same way- I don't use certain things because of potential harmful effects. I agree that you should only use things you're comfortable with. Some things are ok with me, some things are not. I think it should be the same for everyone. (Should we start the whole aluminum vs. stainless debate again, just for fun? )

That said, I'm uncertain if the "hot liquids" warning is because of harmful chemicals leaching out, or if it's simply because the inside of the cooler warps at temperatures above 180. (Ask me how I know.......) If the warning is "don't use hot liquids in this cooler because it'll warp....." that's different to me than "may be harmful at high temperatures!" if you know what I mean.

 

[Strangebird]

That's a good point. It obviously doesn't get that specific. It would be interesting to know which it is (or if it's both). They do at least list most of their products as BPA free. Of course one has to wonder that when companies started doing away with BPA what did they replace it with. Something worse? It'll be interesting to see what Rubbermaid and Coleman come back with in terms of temps for theirs. I know there are no guarantees in life, and there is probably no "perfect" solution. So I'm not saying I wouldn't go AG if I can't find it. Just don't want to grab the nearest thing off the shelf that keeps stuff hot and has a hole in it.

 

[Yooper]

That's a good point. It obviously doesn't get that specific. It would be interesting to know which it is (or if it's both). They do at least list most of their products as BPA free. Of course one has to wonder that when companies started doing away with BPA what did they replace it with. Something worse? It'll be interesting to see what Rubbermaid and Coleman come back with in terms of temps for theirs. I know there are no guarantees in life, and there is probably no "perfect" solution. So I'm not saying I wouldn't go AG if I can't find it. Just don't want to grab the nearest thing off the shelf that keeps stuff hot and has a hole in it.

I know what you mean.

You know, since you're concerned about this issue, you may want to go ahead and mash in a converted keg. They are stainless, and you can buy a stainless false bottom for them. They have some disadvantages like not holding heat as well, but you can also direct-fire them and wrap them with a sleeping bag. You may be able to find a keg for about the same price as a big cooler, and then the health concerns would be alleviated.

 

[Reelale]

Not to be a smartass, but thousands, or hundreds of thousands, of people, are brewing with Igloos and Colemans, and have been for some time.

The stuff in beer that will kill you is the stuff you are trying to make: alcohol.

Your question is like asking if the cigarette paper is bleached or natural. If the cocaine is gas or ether based.

Thanks for the buzzkill

I just retired my cooler, which mashed some mighty fine brews. I went with a sanke MLT with a bottom drain. I just didn't like having part of my brewery plastic. Plus, the stainless is so sexy....

 

[Yooper]

Plus, the stainless is so sexy....

ooooh, did you polish it? did ya? Huh?

Speaking of sexy stainless, have you guys drooled at the pictures of lehr's setup the way I have? All shiny, polished kegs. It's a beautiful thing.

Seriously, there are plenty of ways to use stainless if that's your preference. From a seriously wonderful Blingmann MLT to a simple keg with false bottom and ball valve. I still love my cooler MLT, even though I have a keggle for the BK and am switching to a keg for my HLT. But a keg MLT may be just the ticket for you.

 

[Strangebird]

I was just looking at the mash tuns on morebeer.com which would be similar. Either way, the big issue is simply temp management obviously. I assume you don't direct-fire them while they're wrapped in the sleeping bag.

 

[Reelale]

ooooh, did you polish it? did ya? Huh?

Yes, yes I did. Then wrapped it in reflectix. Wait, what are we talking about here.

I was just looking at the mash tuns on morebeer.com which would be similar. Either way, the big issue is simply temp management obviously. I assume you don't direct-fire them while they're wrapped in the sleeping bag.

Yes, without a direct-fire or RIMS/HERMS system, kegs can't hold the temps like an insulated cooler.

 

[BigEd]

So I've been researching coolers for mashing. I just went through the Igloo, Rubbermaid and Coleman websites looking for info on whether their 5 and 10 gallon beverage coolers are suitable for hot liquids. In the FAQ on the Igloo site it specifically says that they are not. The other two did not have the info on their websites so I have emails into the customer service departments asking what the acceptable temp range is. I am one of those people that has a general skepticism of plastics used with food/liquids (hence why I use glass carboys despite their weight/awkwardness).

I came across this type of container on Amazon which claims to be for hot liquids, but the distributor's website indicates that they use Bisphenol-A in many of their resins. Of course they refer people to bisphenola.org. Of course the research studyies listed on that site are by plastics/chemical industry organizations so I don't trust them as far as I can throw them.

http://www.amazon.com/Camtainer-Beverage-Carrier-Insulated-Plastic/dp/B000XATJ86/ref=sr_1_41?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1286840531&sr=1-41

I'm curious whether folks have any mash containers that came with a stated temp range that includes mash temps.

Igloo, Rubbermaid, Coleman, etc make their coolers for icing down the sixpacks for the Fourth of July and filling with Gatorade at football games. They were not designed to fill with barley malt and hot water so it should come as no surprise that those companies are not going to recommend them for that use. My guess is that their legal departments would also not want to deal with some schlub complaining or suing them due to scalding or burns stemming from such activity. Said coolers are made with polypropylene and polyethylene which do not contain Bisphenol-A and are rated to about 175F for low-density polyethylene and around 230-240F for high-density polyethylene and polypropylene. Some warping of the thinner portions of the coolers will be evident after long term exposure to the hot stuff but PP and PE are about the most benign plastics available and are commonly used for many food contact implements and surfaces. If you don't want to use a plastic container for mashing then don't.

The opaque hot coffee servers in your link are likely made of the same basic materials as picnic coolers, polypropylene and polyethylene. The clear container is probably polycarbonate which is the only plastic in this discussion that does contain Bisphenol-A unless specifically stated otherwise.

Stainless steel kettle and keg conversions both commercial and DYI are very popular so if you have any doubts about using plastic that is a simple solution.

 

[Strangebird]

Thanks for the info everyone.

@BigEd are you a plastics engineer? That's great info about the various plastics and definitely more info about what these things are made of than what I've been able to determine from the manufacturer websites.

 

[Palefire]

They in fact specifically list their Cube cooler as acceptable for use with hot liquids. The only bummer about that one is that it doesn't appear (from the photo and info on their website - I haven't it in person) to have a drain hole.

You know, you can always get one of those and drill a drain hole in it. I don't remember off the top of my head what kind of cooler I have (and am too lazy to go out back and check), but it didn't have a drain hole either. Just get a cheap hole saw and you're good to go.

 

[sgillespie]

They do at least list most of their products as BPA free.

Just watch out for plastic #7 and canned goods (which are lined with bpa)