Making a sour

[Jag75]

I'm not personally into them . I've tried a few . The best one was a pomegranate sour from Lengthwise in Bakersfield. My daughter and Nephew have been asking me to make one . I've looked on the forum but really didnt find anything that gave a step by step . I'm also worried about messing up equipment. I read somewhere that people use different equipment then when they brew regular beer. Can someone point me in the right direction and explain the do's and dont's. Thanks for any tips.

 

[bigdawg86]

Start with a kettle sour as there is no real chance of infecting your stuff. Take any base beer recipe (50/50 white wheat / 2-row is a good start), mash like normal, boil beer for a few minutes to pasteurize, cool to about 90°. Take pH. Pitch lactobacillis plantarum of choice. Keep warm. In 24-72 hours the wort will be sour. Going by taste is not gonna work as you still have all the unfermented sugars in the wort, get a pH meter and you will be able to keep better track. I personally like a pH of 3.4 for my sours. Once pH is where you want it, proceed to boil, add anything that tickles your fancy but usually sours have low IBU's, somewhere around 10. Continue the brew day as normal. Ferment with a neutral yeast. US-05 is a good choice. I personally like Voss Kviek for sours. Once beer is at final gravity secondary with fruit or add some juice to flavor. Package. Drink. Repeat.

 

[TwistedGray]

I'm not personally into them . I've tried a few . The best one was a pomegranate sour from Lengthwise in Bakersfield. My daughter and Nephew have been asking me to make one . I've looked on the forum but really didnt find anything that gave a step by step . I'm also worried about messing up equipment. I read somewhere that people use different equipment then when they brew regular beer. Can someone point me in the right direction and explain the do's and dont's. Thanks for any tips.

One of the best resources for souring beer is http://milkthefunk.com.

Kettle Sour: This gives the quickest turn around time, and it's quite easy. You just need a way to hold high temps (100ish) for a few days for the souring process before brewing normally.

Traditional Sour: This is the simplest way to sour; however, it typically takes months for your brew to becomes drinkable again. You brew a beer as you normally would then you sour it (kettle sour is the opposite, for reference).

That is a dumbed down, quick explanation.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Here's my suggested process for beginners for a fast flavorful sour:

70% 2-row
30% white wheat malt
Target OG around 1.050
Soft water, low sulfate.

Mash and boil normal. No hops.
Chill to 70°F.
Pitch WLP644 or any yeast of your choice.
Pitch Lactobacillus plantarum (Swansons, GoodBelly, Renew Life, etc.) after 24-48 hours.
Ferment as normal, allow to free rise.
Dry hopping recommended (0.5oz Czech Saaz per 5 gal is nice).
Package as normal.

Cheers.

 

[Jag75]

Thanks @bigdawg86 for the detailed process . Much appreciated. So after a mash of say 152 for 60 min boil for only a few minutes . Then get down to 90 and add Lactobacillus planetarum. When you say keep warm dk you mean keep at 90 ? Then when ph gets to 3.4 you boil . Do you boil for 60 min? Does it have to get down to room temp when pitching yeast like normal? So whatever sour I do I put that fruit into the secondary?

 

[Jag75]

@TwistedGray & @RPh_Guy thank you .

So using ro water is best . Any salts or acids ? I think I can keep it warm but I dont know about 100. Its fixing to get hot here . Would keeping it outside covered be ok ?

 

[RPh_Guy]

@TwistedGray & @RPh_Guy thank you .

So using ro water is best . Any salts or acids ? I think I can keep it warm but I dont know about 100. Its fixing to get hot here . Would keeping it outside covered be ok ?

RO is good but you can also use dechlorinated tap water. Aim for mash pH anywhere in the 5.2-5.5 range.
I recommend calcium chloride to bump up chloride to at least 50ppm, and at least as high as the sulfate (if using tap water).

If you use the process & yeast I suggested, there's no need to keep it warm. 70-85°F is perfect. I ferment it at 70°F and allow to free rise.

 

[cactusgarrett]

This is like asking "how do you make beer?". There are SO many ways....

Check the bottom of this page for the recipe and steps. Can't go wrong.
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Berliner_Weissbier

 

[Jag75]

I just want the easiest way . I dont want to ruin any kettles, fermenters or kegs . I was under the impression that doing a sour Jack's up your stuff. I will more then likely bottle them .

 

[Jag75]

If you pitch the yeast in a keg do you just open the prv valve or attach an airlock via hose to the gas side?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I was under the impression that doing a sour Jack's up your stuff

It doesn't. Seriously.

Lacto plantarum is just as easy to clean as any yeast you currently use. Furthermore, Lacto plantarum is very hop-sensitive and will do absolutely nothing even if you intentionally add it to any clean beer with hops.

 

[Jag75]

It doesn't. Seriously.

Lacto plantarum is just as easy to clean as any yeast you currently use. Furthermore, Lacto plantarum is very hop-sensitive and will do absolutely nothing even if you intentionally add it to any clean beer with hops.

Good to know thanks for the info !

 

[bigdawg86]

Thanks @bigdawg86 for the detailed process . Much appreciated. So after a mash of say 152 for 60 min boil for only a few minutes . Then get down to 90 and add Lactobacillus planetarum. When you say keep warm dk you mean keep at 90 ? Then when ph gets to 3.4 you boil . Do you boil for 60 min? Does it have to get down to room temp when pitching yeast like normal? So whatever sour I do I put that fruit into the secondary?

Keep warm means 90-100 degrees if you can, but if you can't then that's OK, it just may take longer to sour. I wouldn't leave it outside cause it can pick up wild yeast and start fermenting or get bugs (I woke up to a line of ants to a kettle sour once). The boil post souring is still a 60 minute boil. Post-boil pitching of yeast is unchanged. You need to pitch and keep fermentation within the particular yeasts temperature range. You don't have to secondary if you just want essentially a tart ale, but if you want to add fruit then yes secondary. Good rule of thumb is 1lb fruit per gallon, or if you want to cheat you can just add a organic plain fruit juice of choice to flavor. Tart cherry juice (no preservatives if possible) is a yummy choice.

 

[Jag75]

Just curious but what's the difference in doing the whole boil right after the mash and doing a few minute boil pitching the Lactobacillus and then doing the full boil 3 days later?

If done the latter is it best to just keep inside the kettle for those few days ? I use a Grainfather. It has no tight locking lid .

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

Boiling after you pitch the Lacto will kill the lacto whereas boiling then pitching will keep the lacto alive, preference thing IMO.

You can still saran wrap the Grainfather lid correct? When I have kettle soured before I have just saran wrapped the lid to keep out 02. I think that would be easiest for you since you can brew the beer, sour it right in the kettle and then boil if thats the path you want to take.

 

[jaymosbeershack]

Just curious but what's the difference in doing the whole boil right after the mash and doing a few minute boil pitching the Lactobacillus and then doing the full boil 3 days later?

If done the latter is it best to just keep inside the kettle for those few days ? I use a Grainfather. It has no tight locking lid .

You want to boil after to kill the lacto. Ive seen guys use saran wrap on the grain fatherdurring the souring. I have my first kettle sour planned in the GF in about a month and a half(when the local blackberries are freshest)

 

[cactusgarrett]

A quick boil after the mash (10 min) kills all nasties and prevents something bad taking hold during the 2-3 day souring process.
The boil after souring kills the lacto and also give you the opportunity to add IBU if desired.

Neither one is necessary, but for a kettle sour both are great ideas and go a long way towards ensuring success (or at least avoiding infection).

 

[Jag75]

Saran wrap is a great idea guys !
So boil for a few minutes . Get to 90-100* pitch the Lactobacillus , leave for a few days trying to get a ph around 3.1-3.4 then boil . Bring down to yeast pitching temp , transfer to fermenter and pitch yeast . I think I got it . I agree with big dawg and rph to keep it low ibu . Maybe just dry hop .

 

[Jag75]

Thanks to all of you

 

[RPh_Guy]

Just FYI the post-souring method I suggested has some notable differences:
1. Non-suppressed yeast expression, making a more flavorful beer without dealing with adjuncts. Pre-souring mutes yeast expression.
2. Easier brewing process.
3. Leaving Lacto alive adds complexity to the final beer.
4. Lower risk of spoiling the batch vs kettle souring.

Cheers

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

another good source of info

https://www.themadfermentationist.com/

 

[Jag75]

I think I'm leaning towards the boil first then sour like Rph guy said. I'm just not keen on leaving it in my Grainfather for a few days . I wouldn't leave my Gf running to keep it at 95 degrees anyways. Thank you all for the advice .

 

[cactusgarrett]

I wouldn't leave my Gf running to keep it at 95 degrees anyways.

Plantarum actually sours pretty well above 70°F, so an active heating isn't necessary. FWIW.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Plantarum actually sours pretty well above 70°F, so an active heating isn't necessary. FWIW.

This.

 

[Jag75]

I have a big aluminum pot . That I can sour it in after the mash and boil when ready . However if you can mash then boil and trans to fermenter for sour then drop temp and pitch yeast why would someone want to boil for a few leave in kettle during sour then boil after souring . Is there really any difference in taste?

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

Most people get the heebie jeebies from not killing the Lacto I suppose.

 

[Jag75]

Most people get the heebie jeebies from not killing the Lacto I suppose.

Killing the Lacto?

 

[TwistedGray]

Killing the Lacto?

Boiling after pitching

 

[Jag75]

What are the possibilities of not boiling after Lacto ?

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

It will sour the wort until it can't anymore, which from what I have read and seen seems to around 3pH unless you dry hop to suppress it, which is another option.

If you are aiming for something that is a bit tart I would not let it go without killing/suppressing. Getting down in the low 3's for pH is not for everyone for sure.

 

[Jag75]

Ahhh ok . That's why Rph said dry hopping it .

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

He is the one that first got me into the idea of leaving the lacto alive, unlike you I am a sour lover so it works for me because I like to let the lacto crank the pH down as far as she will go on most of my sours I have done so far.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Killing the Lacto?

Correct. I'm not sure everyone is in agreement that it won't *possibly* contaminate your other brew gear so it's a easy way to avoid that possibility. Cheers

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

That's a fair point, although all the beers I brew fall into one of two categories:

Hopped enough to inhibit lacto
or
Wild/sour/unhopped wort that probably already is scheduled to be inoculated with lacto.

 

[Jag75]

I'm gonna do the post souring method as RPH suggests . Its seems to be the easiest way without having to leave it in my kettle. I have multiple plastic carboys so I will keep the one I use for sours in the future. I have extra hose and siphon so I could dedicate . No biggie . Thanks all !

 

[Blazinlow86]

That's a fair point, although all the beers I brew fall into one of two categories:

Hopped enough to inhibit lacto
or
Wild/sour/unhopped wort that probably already is scheduled to be inoculated with lacto.

As long as your brewing styles don't change your good to go. It's more the brewers that do different beers or still want that option. I don't have a side in that debate fwiw. I brewed a few kettle sours but I drink them so rarely that I've found its better to just buy a few different single tallboys for the times I want them. cheers

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

No doubt it is something to consider for anyone who is going to intentionally infect their beer.

 

[isomerization]

I have a big aluminum pot . That I can sour it in after the mash and boil when ready . However if you can mash then boil and trans to fermenter for sour then drop temp and pitch yeast why would someone want to boil for a few leave in kettle during sour then boil after souring . Is there really any difference in taste?

I don’t think you can kettle sour in an aluminum pot.

“Important note regarding aluminum pots: souring in an aluminum vessel may strip the aluminum of the protective oxide layer. The oxide layer is only stable at a pH of 4.5 - 8.5. Therefore, kettle souring in an aluminum pot is generally not recommended”.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Wort_Souring

 

[Jag75]

I don’t think you can kettle sour in an aluminum pot.

“Important note regarding aluminum pots: souring in an aluminum vessel may strip the aluminum of the protective oxide layer. The oxide layer is only stable at a pH of 4.5 - 8.5. Therefore, kettle souring in an aluminum pot is generally not recommended”.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Wort_Souring

Thank you for that man. I'm just gonna go with RPH guys method .

 

[jmgreen7]

I do extract kettle sours. I do a 10-15 minute pasteurization boil with my grains (1.5lb Pilsen dme, 1.5lb Bavarian dme), then I cool to 90 and pitch lacto.

Lacto is very sensitive to Hops so I prefer this order rather than hopping prior to sour.
I use an inkbird temp controller tied to heating pads wrapped around my kettle. This effectively keeps my temp at 90.

After the appropriate souring period, I brew as usual.