lager yeast washing

[defenestrate]

i've had good success with washing ale yeast. during washing i get good seperation of the dead yeast and trub, then pour off the good yeast and allow to settle. the results havent been the same with lager yeast, however.

i've been brewing some hybrids recently using s-23 dry yeast fermenting in the low 60's. the beers have come out great. when i tried to wash, though, everything settled out extremely quick and the "cloudy" water that i poured off to settle overnight did not result in too much yeast as compared to ale yeasts. is this because the lager yeast is bottom fermenting, and even the viable yeast is dropping?

i went ahead and used the yeast anyway, even though it was not very much. i made 2 back to back starters to grow the yeast before pitching ( both starters took off like champs) and has been working well so far in the current batch. i havent taken i sample yet to check for any off flavors, esters, attenuation issues, etc. i did oxygenate with oxygen for 2 min prior to pitching.

here is a picture of the yeast cake poured off into a gallon jug after kegging the original batch. it all looks like pretty good yeast to me, i cant see any real trub line.

[/IMG]

what do you guys think? anyone else have washing experience with lager yeast?

 

[944play]

THIS is a trub line.

(Harvested 2308.) This ugly crud, in its second and third generations, made two of the best beers I've ever brewed. I'm in ruv with that strain.

 

[defenestrate]

yeah i def see a trub line when i do this with any ale yeasts. when going into the fermenter from the kettle i do let the break trub settle out so i dont pull much sediment into the fermenter at all...

 

[defenestrate]

anyone have any input with washing lager yeast? any different than ale?

 

[messler]

I have the same question as the last poster. I've read that it's better to wash yeast from the secondary, but I'm wondering if the same holds true when you leave the secondary to lager for a month or so.

Thanks.

 

[944play]

I've read that it's better to wash yeast from the secondary

I would never harvest yeast from a secondary. You'd be selecting the least flocculent cells, not what you want.

Lager yeast is really not that different from ale yeast. It just has the ability to metabolize a couple more forms of sugar.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

anyone have any input with washing lager yeast? any different than ale?

I have had similar issues with most lager strains but also with highly flocculent ale strains like WY1968/WLP002.

Only difference is when I add the boiled/cooled water to the carboy I mix it up, let it sit a few minutes, then mix it up again to try and 'break-up' the yeast flocs a little more so it won't settle so fast. Maybe even mix it up a third time. Other than that I just don't let it settle for as long and live with a little trub in the yeast. I almost always will be pitching it the next day anyway.

 

[peterlonz]

Remember that the smaller boutique style breweries, that seem to be everywhere in recent years, typically do not have access to laboratories, & they do just fine harvesting washing & recycling their preferred yeast strains.
For home brewers its fine if you can get rid of most of the trub but it's not essential.
What you should do, is first decide if the yeast you are considering harvesting is good enough. I would need to be sure that it started quickly, fermented quickly (assume ale yeast here) & at the time of "bottling" the brew tasted clean with absolutely no weird or off flavours.
That then is a candidate for harvesting, if you need to keep things very simple, just pour the yeast & trub remains into a couple of clean beer bottles & refridgerate. The yeast will gradually settle above the trub & if you keep your eye on things you can decant the yeast & top layer fluid into another pair of clean bottles - now label carefully.
This will keep for up to 3 months but if any subsequent brew from this harvested batch should show any tendency for off flavour dump the remaining yeast samples. I have not had to ever dump except when I discovered samples older than 6 months.
You can get involved in much more detailed procedures but it's not necessary for the average home brewer who will soon have more yeast than he know s what to do with.

 

[msa8967]

I harvested yeast from my first lager yesterday and the yield seems much lower than what I have harvested from ales before. Is this typical or just random?

 

[Okie12beer]

I was washing some American Lager Wyeast today as I moved it from the primary to the secondary. I am getting good seperation, but I was thinking from my last wash of Ale yeast that the creamy layer in the middle was the yeast. This looks to me like the creamy layer is the bottom. Does lager yeast drop to the bottom or is it still the middle layer and just looks funny?

 

[msa8967]

I would love to know the answer to this question. My washed lager yeast didn't look anything like this so I am wondering if I did something wrong.

 

[beerman0001]

I would love to know the answer to this question. My washed lager yeast didn't look anything like this so I am wondering if I did something wrong.

It all depends on how much trub you get from the boil kettle to the fermenter.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I was washing some American Lager Wyeast today as I moved it from the primary to the secondary. I am getting good seperation, but I was thinking from my last wash of Ale yeast that the creamy layer in the middle was the yeast. This looks to me like the creamy layer is the bottom. Does lager yeast drop to the bottom or is it still the middle layer and just looks funny?

The yeast is indeed at the bottom, and the trub is in the layer above that. Whenever I wash my lager yeast, it falls rapidly to the bottom, within a few minutes. If I let it sit for 20 minutes, the white yeast layer is at the bottom, a very thin trub layer is above that, and the water/beer layer is above that. For me, it doesn't seem possible to practically remove the trub layer since it is so thin (I remove most of the trub before fermentation). So what I do is add sterlized water to the yeast cake in the fermenter, shake it until all the yeast is separated and in suspension, let it sit for no more than a minute or two (during this time, the big chunks of trub will at least settle before most of the yeast) and then immediately pour most of it into Mason jars, leaving the larger chunks of trub behind. This results in yeast with a little bit of trub, and not as clean as washing ale yeast, but not enough to matter. After the Mason jars have been in the fridge for about a week, I decant most of the beer/water off the yeast, and replace it with freshy sterilized water (with some yeast nutrient added) cooled to room temperature. Then to store it for long periods, I make a fresh starter every 6 weeks (again with yeast nutrient added) and refrigerate it again. To keep the yeast strong, the yeast needs the yeast nutrient, even during the storage period. With this method, the yeast stays healthy and vigorous for months (I generally brew 10 gallons every 3 or 4 months). I have reused the lager yeast for well over a year in this manner, and the lagers still turn out excellent.

 

[rookiebrew25]

Hi. I have just put down a Czech Pilsner with s23 yeast. Was interested in washing it and make some lagers. How did you get on with reusing it?

 

[DangerisBrewing]

The yeast is indeed at the bottom, and the trub is in the layer above that. Whenever I wash my lager yeast, it falls rapidly to the bottom, within a few minutes. If I let it sit for 20 minutes, the white yeast layer is at the bottom, a very thin trub layer is above that, and the water/beer layer is above that. For me, it doesn't seem possible to practically remove the trub layer since it is so thin (I remove most of the trub before fermentation). So what I do is add sterlized water to the yeast cake in the fermenter, shake it until all the yeast is separated and in suspension, let it sit for no more than a minute or two (during this time, the big chunks of trub will at least settle before most of the yeast) and then immediately pour most of it into Mason jars, leaving the larger chunks of trub behind. This results in yeast with a little bit of trub, and not as clean as washing ale yeast, but not enough to matter. After the Mason jars have been in the fridge for about a week, I decant most of the beer/water off the yeast, and replace it with freshy sterilized water (with some yeast nutrient added) cooled to room temperature. Then to store it for long periods, I make a fresh starter every 6 weeks (again with yeast nutrient added) and refrigerate it again. To keep the yeast strong, the yeast needs the yeast nutrient, even during the storage period. With this method, the yeast stays healthy and vigorous for months (I generally brew 10 gallons every 3 or 4 months). I have reused the lager yeast for well over a year in this manner, and the lagers still turn out excellent.

Thanks for the nutrient & re-start tip!

I've had starters that wouldn't take off and added the nutrient at that point, kind of late though IMO. Your tip makes sense to keep it active and fed even though it's not being used.

 

[peterlonz]

Maybe I have missed something mentioned earlier. But what exactly is used for yeast nutrient? I don't recall seeing anything like that packaged for sale at my LHBS.
I know the ingredients are fairly basic but without a recipe I don't want to start experimenting or reinventing the wheel.

 

[DangerisBrewing]

Maybe I have missed something mentioned earlier. But what exactly is used for yeast nutrient? I don't recall seeing anything like that packaged for sale at my LHBS.
I know the ingredients are fairly basic but without a recipe I don't want to start experimenting or reinventing the wheel.

You should be able to find this at your lhbs. I've only ever got it there. Ask someone who works there if you still can't find it.

Furthermore, I found this thread on HBT...
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=234880

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Maybe I have missed something mentioned earlier. But what exactly is used for yeast nutrient? I don't recall seeing anything like that packaged for sale at my LHBS.
I know the ingredients are fairly basic but without a recipe I don't want to start experimenting or reinventing the wheel.

I have used both "Andovin Super Nutrient" and "Wyeast Beer Nutrient Blend". The first you should be able to get at a wine or beer store, the second likely only at a beer store.