All things Trappist

[Big Monk]

Does anyone know if the various Candi Syrup Inc. syrups (D-45, D-90, D180) are merely various darkness levels of invert sugar? I.E., can homemade invert sugar #2, #3, and #4 be successfully substituted in their place?

Have you tasted their syrups? I’m inclined to say no. Some of what they say is hype but their sugars are very tasty and of a higher quality than much of the homemade stuff I’ve had.

By the time you get the supplies and put the work in, I don’t think you save anything by DIY, and I don’t believe you can match the quality.

I recommend the D90 and D180 as I don’t feel thier other syrups have any advantage over other commercially available sample or normal hard sugars.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Have you tasted their syrups? I’m inclined to say no. Some of what they say is hype but their sugars are very tasty and of a higher quality than much of the homemade stuff I’ve had.

By the time you get the supplies and put the work in, I don’t think you save anything by DIY, and I don’t believe you can match the quality.

I recommend the D90 and D180 as I don’t feel thier other syrups have any advantage over other commercially available sample or normal hard sugars.

I have not (as yet) tasted them. That said:

I did a quadratic regression of some common home recipe data for the manufacture of Invert Sugar, and from the formula derived thereby I came up with the following nominal times to hold the mix at 245 degrees F. The SRM color of the invert sugar rises exponentially with boil time. White table sugar is presumed.

For SRM = 45, hold the Invert boil at 245 degrees for 129 minutes
For SRM = 90, hold the Invert boil at 245 degrees for 171 minutes
For SRM = 180, hold the Invert boil at 245 degrees for 209 minutes
For SRM = 240, hold the Invert boil at 245 degrees for 226 minutes

For those attempting to achieve the nominal SRM colors (though admittedly all bets are off as to actual taste comparison) of the likes of D-45, D-90, D-180, and D-240 respectfully, these should be good boil hold times for your initial go at it. Then modify times if/as needed from these initial times when gained experience through actual runs dictates that modification is necessary.

Disclaimer: As always, trust but verify, as YMMV

It seems that the easiest thing to do would be to bring the mix to the 245 degree F. mark on the stove top, and then immediately transition the pot to a 245 degree pre-heated oven (this requires an oven suitable pot) for the recommended hold time(s).

 

[Big Monk]

I have not (as yet) tasted them. That said:

I did a quadratic regression of some common home recipe data for the manufacture of Invert Sugar, and from the formula derived thereby I came up with the following nominal times to hold the mix at 245 degrees F. The SRM color of the invert sugar rises exponentially with boil time. White table sugar is presumed.

For SRM = 45, hold the Invert boil at 245 degrees for 129 minutes
For SRM = 90, hold the Invert boil at 245 degrees for 171 minutes
For SRM = 180, hold the Invert boil at 245 degrees for 209 minutes
For SRM = 240, hold the Invert boil at 245 degrees for 226 minutes

For those attempting to achieve the nominal SRM colors (though admittedly all bets are off as to actual taste comparison) of the likes of D-45, D-90, D-180, and D-240 respectfully, these should be good boil hold times for your initial go at it. Then modify times if/as needed from these initial times when gained experience through actual runs dictates that modification is necessary.

Disclaimer: As always, trust but verify, as YMMV

It seems that the easiest thing to do would be to bring the mix to the 245 degree F. mark on the stove top, and then immediately transition the pot to a 245 degree pre-heated oven (this requires an oven suitable pot) for the recommended hold time(s).

I have tasted them. That said:

I did a linear Google search of common CSI, Inc, prices, and I came up with the following formula for saving some time and NOT making your own syrups:

For Simplicity, save your money;
For Golden, save your money;
For their soft sugars, save your money;
For D45, reach into your pocket and pull out $6.99 and hand it to your LHBS owner or online retailer;
For D90, reach into your pocket and pull out $6.99 and hand it to your LHBS owner or online retailer;
For D180, reach into your pocket and pull out $6.99 and hand it to your LHBS owner or online retailer;
For D240, ask yourself: WTH am I using 240 SRM syrup for?

This guide will save you time, hair, boiling sugar burns, etc.

You'll thank me later.

(All in jest of course Larry. We appreciate the info!)

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

For those of you who want the quadratic equation which I used above in order to dial in nominal (initial attempt) boil times for a multitude of other SRM colors of Invert Sugar, it is (rounded to 8 decimal places):

SRM = -3.03296703 + 1.08544566*X - 0.01281970*X^2 + 0.00005649*X^3

Where X = minutes held at 245 degrees F.

Simply copy and paste this formula "exactly as is" into a spreadsheet somewhere (copying it from above beginning with the equal sign and progressing to the to the right, excluding the letters "SRM"). Then pick the random cell into which you want to enter your desired minutes of boil at 245 degrees F., click into that cell, and then look to the upper left corner of the spreadsheet surround and find a box where the cell your cursor is sitting in will be identified within. Enter this box and replace the cell location of the cursor in the box (for example E5, if cell E5 is where your cursor currently happens to be sitting) with a capital letter X. All done. Now you can begin to enter random minute values into your newly chosen cell X (formerly cell E5, or whatever) and the SRM color to expect will instantly appear in the cell to which you pasted this formula.

In this fashion every cell within a spreadsheet that represents a variable can be literally and directly named for the variable. A cell could be named "Minutes" just as easily as it can be named "X". This makes it easy to understand the intent of the cell and the formula it is linked to down the road when you are wondering what its intent is. It also makes it easy to move a formula from one spreadsheet to another without introducing cell misidentification error.

 

[Gregory T]

I have tasted them. That said:

I did a linear Google search of common CSI, Inc, prices, and I came up with the following formula for saving some time and NOT making your own syrups:

For Simplicity, save your money;
For Golden, save your money;
For their soft sugars, save your money;
For D45, reach into your pocket and pull out $6.99 and hand it to your LHBS owner or online retailer;
For D90, reach into your pocket and pull out $6.99 and hand it to your LHBS owner or online retailer;
For D180, reach into your pocket and pull out $6.99 and hand it to your LHBS owner or online retailer;
For D240, ask yourself: WTH am I using 240 SRM syrup for?

This guide will save you time, hair, boiling sugar burns, etc.

You'll thank me later.

(All in jest of course Larry. We appreciate the info!)

in place of simplicity add table sugar?

 

[Big Monk]

in place of simplicity add table sugar?

You can but use less by weight because of the potential extract difference (46.21 to 32 ppg)

Or use one of my favorites: Florida Crystals Raw Cane Invert Syrup.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

wow..bunch of nerds!

 

[Gregory T]

You can but use less by weight because of the potential extract difference (46.21 to 32 ppg)

Or use one of my favorites: Florida Crystals Raw Cane Invert Syrup.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

For D240, ask yourself: WTH am I using 240 SRM syrup for?

I had to ponder this:

1) Maris Otter or Golden Promise plus just enough D-240 to achieve a final color of SRM 21-22 for the worlds most simple Scotch Wee Heavy recipe (along the lines of McEwan's). Shoot for OG = 1.086, and 20-22 IBU's (with only a 60 minute hop addition of Magnum).

2) Russian Imperial Stout along the lines of 'B.O.R.I.S. The Crusher' (my favorite RIS, in all of its iterations).

 

[Miraculix]

Gentleman,

On my quest to find the tastiest session beer (European session, meaning og around 1.026), I found that Belgian yeasts are really promising candidates.

Therefore I am planning to brew a beer with lallemand abbey and the following bill.

30% dark Candi syrup
10% crystal 60l
30% spelt flour (wheat)
30% Marris otter pale

20-25 ibus, mainly bittering hops, a touch of saaz as late addition, maybe I skip the saaz.

Keeping in mind the low og, I increased the flavour giving malts and adjuncts and the spelt to provide good head.

Any comments from the Belgian specialists?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Does anyone know if the various Candi Syrup Inc. syrups (D-45, D-90, D180) are merely various darkness levels of invert sugar? I.E., can homemade invert sugar #2, #3, and #4 be successfully substituted in their place?

The obvious difference between British invert and Belgian candi is that the former uses unprocessed cane sugar, and the latter beet sugar. So they're not direct equivalents even if they are sort of similar.

1) Maris Otter or Golden Promise plus just enough D-240 to achieve a final color of SRM 21-22 for the worlds most simple Scotch Wee Heavy recipe (along the lines of McEwan's). Shoot for OG = 1.086, and 20-22 IBU's (with only a 60 minute hop addition of Magnum).

You say McEwan's in this country and most people will think of their (4.5%) Export. I assume you're referring to Champion? But you can't talk about Wee Heavies without Fowler's Twelve Guinea Ale (which originally had an FG of 1.068 (!), and its spiritual successor Bellhaven Wee Heavy. We talked about it a bit in this thread, as ever Ron Pattinson is your go-to on this stuff - at the very least you want to bump up the IBU to 26 or so.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The obvious difference between British invert and Belgian candi is that the former uses unprocessed cane sugar, and the latter beet sugar. So they're not direct equivalents even if they are sort of similar.



You say McEwan's in this country and most people will think of their (4.5%) Export. I assume you're referring to Champion?

Champion is 8% ABV to my knowledge, and the Wee Heavy that McEwan's exports to the USA as "Scotch Ale" (not Champion) is 9% ABV, so it appears that "Champion" would be the closest match to what we get on this side of the pond.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Gentleman,

On my quest to find the tastiest session beer (European session, meaning og around 1.026), I found that Belgian yeasts are really promising candidates.

Therefore I am planning to brew a beer with lallemand abbey and the following bill.

30% dark Candi syrup
10% crystal 60l
30% spelt flour (wheat)
30% Marris otter pale

20-25 ibus, mainly bittering hops, a touch of saaz as late addition, maybe I skip the saaz.

Keeping in mind the low og, I increased the flavour giving malts and adjuncts and the spelt to provide good head.

Any comments from the Belgian specialists?

Would that be malted or unmalted spelt? And are you talking of a finely milled flour, or grain mill crushed spelt berries? Is there an EBC or SRM color value that you can pin down for the dark candi syrup?

 

[Comfort_Zone]

Gentleman,

On my quest to find the tastiest session beer (European session, meaning og around 1.026), I found that Belgian yeasts are really promising candidates.

Therefore I am planning to brew a beer with lallemand abbey and the following bill.

30% dark Candi syrup
10% crystal 60l
30% spelt flour (wheat)
30% Marris otter pale

20-25 ibus, mainly bittering hops, a touch of saaz as late addition, maybe I skip the saaz.

Keeping in mind the low og, I increased the flavour giving malts and adjuncts and the spelt to provide good head.

Any comments from the Belgian specialists?

Which yeasts in particular are you looking at? Using the term "Belgian" covers a lot of ground.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The obvious difference between British invert and Belgian candi is that the former uses unprocessed cane sugar, and the latter beet sugar. So they're not direct equivalents even if they are sort of similar.

So for a Belgian candi syrup it would be best to invert refined white table sugar. Refined and processed beet sugar and refined and processed cane sugar should be chemically nigh on identical, if not factually identical. Both types (cane and beet) are sold here in the USA as white table sugar, and I can't tell one from the other.

And likewise, for a UK style ale it would be best to invert from a starting point of something along the lines of what is available here as Turbinado sugar, I presume.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Champion is 8% ABV to my knowledge, and the Wee Heavy that McEwan's exports to the USA as "Scotch Ale" (not Champion) is 9% ABV, so it appears that "Champion" would be the closest match to what we get on this side of the pond.

The internet reckons that various beers have carried the name "Scotch Ale" across the pond, but it seems the current version is 8% and is a slightly stronger version of the Champion found in the UK which is 7.3% - the tax in the UK doubles at 7.5% so British beers seldom go over that level.

Martyn Cornell would argue that Champion is actually a Burton Ale, but that's another matter - Wee Heavy is one of those styles that is almost never seen in its homeland but has been adopted enthusiastically in other countries more used to high-ABV beers.

 

[Miraculix]

Which yeasts in particular are you looking at? Using the term "Belgian" covers a lot of ground.

I wrote that I will use lallemand abbey. I got it on hand, so I'll use it.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

I wrote that I will use lallemand abbey. I got it on hand, so I'll use it.

So you did, somehow I managed to miss that [emoji23]

 

[Miraculix]

Would that be malted or unmalted spelt? And are you talking of a finely milled flour, or grain mill crushed spelt berries? Is there an EBC or SRM color value that you can pin down for the dark candi syrup?

It is spelt flour, finely milled flour from unmalted spelt for baking purposes.

Don't worry about conversion or stuck sparges, I've done similar grainbills before, works really well as I do full volume biab and the mash is really thin.

The Candi is really Dark one, the darkest available I think.

Edit: the syrup has 250ebc

 

[Miraculix]

So you did, somehow I managed to miss that [emoji23]

Hahaha, no worries.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

So for a Belgian candi syrup it would be best to invert refined white table sugar. Refined and processed beet sugar and refined and processed cane sugar should be chemically nigh on identical, if not factually identical. Both types (cane and beet) are sold here in the USA as white table sugar, and I can't tell one from the other.

And likewise, for a UK style ales it would be best to invert from a starting point of something along the lines of what is available here as Turbinado sugar, I presume.

I _think_ candi sugar is made with unprocessed beet sugar, but I'm not 100% on that. I believe the darker ones have some date sugar to help the colour.

Looking at Google images of turbinado, a lot of it looks kinda light compared to the demerera that is usually suggested as the starting point here which is more of a dark gold/light brown kind of colour. But some turbinado does look a similar colour, so try to find one of the darker ones.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Looking at Google images of turbinado, a lot of it looks kinda light compared to the demerera that is usually suggested as the starting point here which is more of a dark gold/light brown kind of colour. But some turbinado does look a similar colour, so try to find one of the darker ones.

There is also Demerara here, but it is harder to find. It is indeed a couple shades darker than Turbinado.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Per the packaging, D-90 contains nothing but beet sugar (I.E., beet sourced white table sugar) and water. D-180 contains beet sugar, date sugar, and water.

A quick search of the internet found that date sugar has a sort of butterscotch flavor. It is sold in most health food and whole food type stores. Bob's Red Mill and Now sell it commercially packaged. Per Now it is merely micro-chopped dates with no other processing than to chop the dates extremely fine.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Per Encyclopedia Britannica refined beet sugar and refined cane sugar are chemically identical. They further state that:

The refining process renders the original plant irrelevant as the sucrose is completely extracted from the plant that produced it.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Per the packaging, D-90 contains nothing but beet sugar (I.E., beet sourced white table sugar)

That doesn't necessarily mean it's processed white sugar, surely? Could be unprocessed and it would still be beet sugar, no? For instance, on their website, Candi Syrup say D-45 is made with "raw beet sugar" whereas the picture of the packaging at the top just says "Contents:Beet sugar, water".

Also their spurning of starch-derived sugars (which would be just sucrose) suggests that the stuff that's in unprocessed beet sugar that isn't sucrose is important to them.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Per a "U.S. International Trade Commission" publication:

There is no raw beet sugar because sugar beets are processed into refined sugar through a continuous process. CR at I‐14; PR at I‐11.

https://www.usitc.gov/publications/701_731/pub4467.pdf

 

[Big Monk]

Per a "U.S. International Trade Commission" publication:



https://www.usitc.gov/publications/701_731/pub4467.pdf

Doesn’t matter what it’s made of. It’s delicious and worth the price. I disregard all their marketing stuff and just focus on the taste.

I get no joy out of making my own Syrup products and at $6-7 a pound I consider it worth the time savings.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

It's a bit more complicated than that - whilst processing in the US is done in integrated plants, the process is broadly the same as for cane and so it's not that raw beet sugar doesn't exist, it's just that in the US it is produced and then refined within the same plant. If you read pp56-60 it goes into a bit more detail, including the classifications for international trade in raw beet sugar, and how different parts of the industry have different definitions for what "raw" means in this context. Which obviously doesn't help.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Adding some "date sugar" to a Belgian Trappist ale recipe might be a beneficial consideration to explore. Ditto it should be worth exploring its addition at some quantity to invert sugar as a means to come closer to the Trappist invert.

 

[Gregory T]

For me, I have always used the Candi Syrup. I might consider using table sugar, if there were no difference. But anything else seems to quickly start approaching the $6 per pound then I’m just gonna go with the Candi syrup