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Does anyone know if the various Candi Syrup Inc. syrups (D-45, D-90, D180) are merely various darkness levels of invert sugar? I.E., can homemade invert sugar #2, #3, and #4 be successfully substituted in their place?

The obvious difference between British invert and Belgian candi is that the former uses unprocessed cane sugar, and the latter beet sugar. So they're not direct equivalents even if they are sort of similar.

1) Maris Otter or Golden Promise plus just enough D-240 to achieve a final color of SRM 21-22 for the worlds most simple Scotch Wee Heavy recipe (along the lines of McEwan's). Shoot for OG = 1.086, and 20-22 IBU's (with only a 60 minute hop addition of Magnum).

You say McEwan's in this country and most people will think of their (4.5%) Export. I assume you're referring to Champion? But you can't talk about Wee Heavies without Fowler's Twelve Guinea Ale (which originally had an FG of 1.068 (!), and its spiritual successor Bellhaven Wee Heavy. We talked about it a bit in this thread, as ever Ron Pattinson is your go-to on this stuff - at the very least you want to bump up the IBU to 26 or so.
 
The obvious difference between British invert and Belgian candi is that the former uses unprocessed cane sugar, and the latter beet sugar. So they're not direct equivalents even if they are sort of similar.



You say McEwan's in this country and most people will think of their (4.5%) Export. I assume you're referring to Champion?

Champion is 8% ABV to my knowledge, and the Wee Heavy that McEwan's exports to the USA as "Scotch Ale" (not Champion) is 9% ABV, so it appears that "Champion" would be the closest match to what we get on this side of the pond.
 
Gentleman,

On my quest to find the tastiest session beer (European session, meaning og around 1.026), I found that Belgian yeasts are really promising candidates.

Therefore I am planning to brew a beer with lallemand abbey and the following bill.

30% dark Candi syrup
10% crystal 60l
30% spelt flour (wheat)
30% Marris otter pale

20-25 ibus, mainly bittering hops, a touch of saaz as late addition, maybe I skip the saaz.

Keeping in mind the low og, I increased the flavour giving malts and adjuncts and the spelt to provide good head.

Any comments from the Belgian specialists?

Would that be malted or unmalted spelt? And are you talking of a finely milled flour, or grain mill crushed spelt berries? Is there an EBC or SRM color value that you can pin down for the dark candi syrup?
 
Gentleman,

On my quest to find the tastiest session beer (European session, meaning og around 1.026), I found that Belgian yeasts are really promising candidates.

Therefore I am planning to brew a beer with lallemand abbey and the following bill.

30% dark Candi syrup
10% crystal 60l
30% spelt flour (wheat)
30% Marris otter pale

20-25 ibus, mainly bittering hops, a touch of saaz as late addition, maybe I skip the saaz.

Keeping in mind the low og, I increased the flavour giving malts and adjuncts and the spelt to provide good head.

Any comments from the Belgian specialists?
Which yeasts in particular are you looking at? Using the term "Belgian" covers a lot of ground.
 
The obvious difference between British invert and Belgian candi is that the former uses unprocessed cane sugar, and the latter beet sugar. So they're not direct equivalents even if they are sort of similar.

So for a Belgian candi syrup it would be best to invert refined white table sugar. Refined and processed beet sugar and refined and processed cane sugar should be chemically nigh on identical, if not factually identical. Both types (cane and beet) are sold here in the USA as white table sugar, and I can't tell one from the other.

And likewise, for a UK style ale it would be best to invert from a starting point of something along the lines of what is available here as Turbinado sugar, I presume.
 
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Champion is 8% ABV to my knowledge, and the Wee Heavy that McEwan's exports to the USA as "Scotch Ale" (not Champion) is 9% ABV, so it appears that "Champion" would be the closest match to what we get on this side of the pond.

The internet reckons that various beers have carried the name "Scotch Ale" across the pond, but it seems the current version is 8% and is a slightly stronger version of the Champion found in the UK which is 7.3% - the tax in the UK doubles at 7.5% so British beers seldom go over that level.

Martyn Cornell would argue that Champion is actually a Burton Ale, but that's another matter - Wee Heavy is one of those styles that is almost never seen in its homeland but has been adopted enthusiastically in other countries more used to high-ABV beers.
 
Would that be malted or unmalted spelt? And are you talking of a finely milled flour, or grain mill crushed spelt berries? Is there an EBC or SRM color value that you can pin down for the dark candi syrup?

It is spelt flour, finely milled flour from unmalted spelt for baking purposes.

Don't worry about conversion or stuck sparges, I've done similar grainbills before, works really well as I do full volume biab and the mash is really thin.

The Candi is really Dark one, the darkest available I think.

Edit: the syrup has 250ebc
 
So for a Belgian candi syrup it would be best to invert refined white table sugar. Refined and processed beet sugar and refined and processed cane sugar should be chemically nigh on identical, if not factually identical. Both types (cane and beet) are sold here in the USA as white table sugar, and I can't tell one from the other.

And likewise, for a UK style ales it would be best to invert from a starting point of something along the lines of what is available here as Turbinado sugar, I presume.

I _think_ candi sugar is made with unprocessed beet sugar, but I'm not 100% on that. I believe the darker ones have some date sugar to help the colour.

Looking at Google images of turbinado, a lot of it looks kinda light compared to the demerera that is usually suggested as the starting point here which is more of a dark gold/light brown kind of colour. But some turbinado does look a similar colour, so try to find one of the darker ones.
 
Looking at Google images of turbinado, a lot of it looks kinda light compared to the demerera that is usually suggested as the starting point here which is more of a dark gold/light brown kind of colour. But some turbinado does look a similar colour, so try to find one of the darker ones.

There is also Demerara here, but it is harder to find. It is indeed a couple shades darker than Turbinado.
 
Per the packaging, D-90 contains nothing but beet sugar (I.E., beet sourced white table sugar) and water. D-180 contains beet sugar, date sugar, and water.

A quick search of the internet found that date sugar has a sort of butterscotch flavor. It is sold in most health food and whole food type stores. Bob's Red Mill and Now sell it commercially packaged. Per Now it is merely micro-chopped dates with no other processing than to chop the dates extremely fine.
 
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Per Encyclopedia Britannica refined beet sugar and refined cane sugar are chemically identical. They further state that:

The refining process renders the original plant irrelevant as the sucrose is completely extracted from the plant that produced it.
 
Per the packaging, D-90 contains nothing but beet sugar (I.E., beet sourced white table sugar)

That doesn't necessarily mean it's processed white sugar, surely? Could be unprocessed and it would still be beet sugar, no? For instance, on their website, Candi Syrup say D-45 is made with "raw beet sugar" whereas the picture of the packaging at the top just says "Contents:Beet sugar, water".

Also their spurning of starch-derived sugars (which would be just sucrose) suggests that the stuff that's in unprocessed beet sugar that isn't sucrose is important to them.
 
It's a bit more complicated than that - whilst processing in the US is done in integrated plants, the process is broadly the same as for cane and so it's not that raw beet sugar doesn't exist, it's just that in the US it is produced and then refined within the same plant. If you read pp56-60 it goes into a bit more detail, including the classifications for international trade in raw beet sugar, and how different parts of the industry have different definitions for what "raw" means in this context. Which obviously doesn't help.
 
Adding some "date sugar" to a Belgian Trappist ale recipe might be a beneficial consideration to explore. Ditto it should be worth exploring its addition at some quantity to invert sugar as a means to come closer to the Trappist invert.
 
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For me, I have always used the Candi Syrup. I might consider using table sugar, if there were no difference. But anything else seems to quickly start approaching the $6 per pound then I’m just gonna go with the Candi syrup
 
Very interesting thread ( I'm Belgian :) ) . Rochefort 8 is my favorite beer it is well balanced. I brew dubbel and tripel at least once a year. Wyeast 1762 abbey II for the dark and Wyeast 3787 Trappist high gravity for tripel. I make my own candi syrup.
 
Very interesting thread ( I'm Belgian :) ) . Rochefort 8 is my favorite beer it is well balanced. I brew dubbel and tripel at least once a year. Wyeast 1762 abbey II for the dark and Wyeast 3787 Trappist high gravity for tripel. I make my own candi syrup.

Thanks for sharing that. Would you please shed some light on how real Candi Syrup should be made, for a few of the more important darkness levels?
 
Very interesting thread ( I'm Belgian :) ) . Rochefort 8 is my favorite beer it is well balanced. I brew dubbel and tripel at least once a year. Wyeast 1762 abbey II for the dark and Wyeast 3787 Trappist high gravity for tripel. I make my own candi syrup.

Worked in Liège for several weeks a couple years ago. I miss the frites and the beer, of course
 
Worked in Liège for several weeks a couple years ago. I miss the frites and the beer, of course

Now I live in Canada,. It is difficult to buy imported Trappist beers here in Quebec because the liquor stores are a monopoly government owned so you'll find on the shelves what they decide to sell , not what you would like to drink. On the other hand one brewery producing some of the best trappist style beers is located here in Montreal, it is the Unibroue brewery. Their first headbrewer was from Belgium.
 
Now I live in Canada,. It is difficult to buy imported Trappist beers here in Quebec because the liquor stores are a monopoly government owned so you'll find on the shelves what they decide to sell , not what you would like to drink. On the other hand one brewery producing some of the best trappist style beers is located here in Montreal, it is the Unibroue brewery. Their first headbrewer was from Belgium.

In Indiana in the middle of the US of IPA you can find a Westamalle and occasionally a Rocherfort. But only at a couple places and they’re pricey
 
I guess I am lucky that I got westmalle in my local supermarket in the UK. From the higher gravity beers that's probably one of the better ones for me but unfortunately I seem just not to like higher abv beers... I tried German bocks, weizenbock, Belgians, Imperial stouts... Now I am a happy session beer drinker :)
 
My favorite recipe is the black scapular dubbel from Jamil Zainhassef's book . Strangely enough the dark strong recipe doesn't include any candi syrup.
Is there any trappist brewery producing dubbel or dark strong without any candi syrup ?
 
Last week I removed the activated carbon filter of my kitchen because it was leaking. So I treated the brewing water by adding literally 1 pinch of potassium met .And I discovered the Low Oxygen Brewing website.
 
There is an excellent thread about homemade candi syrup here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/20-lb-of-sugar-and-a-jar-of-yeast-nutrient.114837/

It is not difficult to produce.

You'll need a good thermometer ( I own a thermoworks ) , some DAP ( diammonium phosphate ) or some yeast nutrient and ... a lot of patience.

It’s the patience part that k
My favorite recipe is the black scapular dubbel from Jamil Zainhassef's book . Strangely enough the dark strong recipe doesn't include any candi syrup.
Is there any trappist brewery producing dubbel or dark strong without any candi syrup ?

Most of them aren’t as far as I know. Rochefort and Chimay don’t.
 
My grocery store carries all three Rochefort, both Westmalle, the whole Chimay line, the whole St. B line, Duvel, Chouffe, etc.

Plus I’m only an hour from a Ommegang. Gotta love Central NY
 
A few months ago I was in a hurry and brewed a tripel using malt extract, steeped aromatic malt, homemade clear candi syrup and cane sugar. It was fermented with Lallemand abbaye yeast. I was pleased with the result. I prefer liquid yeast ( I have slants of of wyeast that I reculture every 3 months ) . but Lallemand abbaye yeast works well and create typical esters found in Trappist beers.
 
Per a "U.S. International Trade Commission" publication:



https://www.usitc.gov/publications/701_731/pub4467.pdf
I think a big spoonful of both would provide a lot of empirical data. I would do the honor but I dont have any candi sugar around. Interesting discussion though. @Rpi yeah me to, I dont like making syrups, but last summer made a bunch of simple syrups with mint from the garden for mojitos. Highly reccomend that. I have used a lot of candi syrup then I heard was it mosher, say that cane sugar or was it turbinado was acceptable so I stopped. The candi syrup isnt much but the table sugar makes a nice trappist and save 6.50.
 
my sack of weyermann extra pale pilsner just came in. gonna try that out next week. Brewed a blonde yesterday and cold crashing another
 
It appears that the invert sugar method which I was focused upon is not at all the method that leads to Belgian Candi Syrup. The method I have focused upon requires the addition of an acid (most often in the form of lemon juice or citric acid), and the Belgian method appears to be based upon the use of DAP and/or caustic. Two completely different beasts.
 
Random, but I've been seeing Westmalle Dubbel on tap the last few months. Back in the day, the only place to get it on draft was at the Oude Arsenaal in Antwerp. That said, I had one at lunch the other day and the bartender poured it in a 16 oz glass, filled it up to the rim. Normally that's a no-no, but for $7, I'll take that every day. I wonder if I can buy a keg of it.
 
It appears that the invert sugar method which I was focused upon is not at all the method that leads to Belgian Candi Syrup. The method I have focused upon requires the addition of an acid (most often in the form of lemon juice or citric acid), and the Belgian method appears to be based upon the use of DAP and/or caustic. Two completely different beasts.
Disclaimer I never made Candi syrup myself. From what I gather - you were on the right track though. Sugar needs to be inverted first with acid, as Maillard reaction requires reducing sugars, which sucrose isn't. Then a base is added to neutralize the acid and bring pH higher to facilitate browning, together with some aminos (DAP, DME, date sugar or syrup or whatever).
 
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