PVC Tower Cooling Solution

qvantamon · Nov 6, 2009

I have made this mod, but I found it's very sensitive to the fridge's air temp, which sucks in a Sanyo 4912M (due to the cold plate on the back design). Right now I have about 1' of each tube into the fridge, but opening it for a few minutes is enough to bring it back to almost room temp, since there's nothing to keep the cold. And I'm opening it a lot right now, since I just made it and am still tinkering.

I had a few ideas for this:

1) Elbow back at the top, then run about 6" close to the cold plate. This might cause the beer line to freeze. I could use a T instead of elbow, but the the tube would still reach sub-freeze temperatures and conduct that to the beer line, so it would be close to the same thing. Also, this is still sensitive to air temperature. If I open the fridge when the compressor is off, it'll be the same problem

2) Tape a blue ice pack (the bag one, not the brick one) to the tubes (inside the fridge). The easy way is to just tape it around them just as they are now, and hope it's enough. The really overengineered way is to make a copper "manifold shelf" about 1" from the top, and place the pack on top of that, maximizing contact surface. That might be overkill...

Right now my plan is to get a pack, do the lazy tape thing and see how it goes. If I do end up needing to change the tubing, I'm gonna end up mixing these up and making a manifold + ice pack close to the cold plate.

Edit: OK, I may have done something stupid. Instead of drilling a big hole I just drilled 2 5/8" holes to fit just the tubes, snugly (my idea was to avoid leaving the tower open into the fridge... my tower insulation starts on top of the plastic cover). But this means the tubes are directly touching the metal on top of the refrigerator, and the wood on top of that. And that's 2 inches from the hot spot from the freon line. The freon line might be heating the tubes from the top. I think this weekend I'm gonna have to go ahead and use the hole saw.

tcklord · Nov 6, 2009

qvantamon said:
I have made this mod, but I found it's very sensitive to the fridge's air temp, which sucks in a Sanyo 4912M (due to the cold plate on the back design). Right now I have about 1' of each tube into the fridge, but opening it for a few minutes is enough to bring it back to almost room temp, since there's nothing to keep the cold. And I'm opening it a lot right now, since I just made it and am still tinkering.

I had a few ideas for this:

1) Elbow back at the top, then run about 6" close to the cold plate. This might cause the beer line to freeze. I could use a T instead of elbow, but the the tube would still reach sub-freeze temperatures and conduct that to the beer line, so it would be close to the same thing. Also, this is still sensitive to air temperature. If I open the fridge when the compressor is off, it'll be the same problem

2) Tape a blue ice pack (the bag one, not the brick one) to the tubes (inside the fridge). The easy way is to just tape it around them just as they are now, and hope it's enough. The really overengineered way is to make a copper "manifold shelf" about 1" from the top, and place the pack on top of that, maximizing contact surface. That might be overkill...

Right now my plan is to get a pack, do the lazy tape thing and see how it goes. If I do end up needing to change the tubing, I'm gonna end up mixing these up and making a manifold + ice pack close to the cold plate.

Edit: OK, I may have done something stupid. Instead of drilling a big hole I just drilled 2 5/8" holes to fit just the tubes, snugly (my idea was to avoid leaving the tower open into the fridge... my tower insulation starts on top of the plastic cover). But this means the tubes are directly touching the metal on top of the refrigerator, and the wood on top of that. And that's 2 inches from the hot spot from the freon line. The freon line might be heating the tubes from the top. I think this weekend I'm gonna have to go ahead and use the hole saw.

Let us know how that turns out. Mine could be colder on the first pour as well.

bradsul · Nov 6, 2009

qvantamon said:
...The freon line might be heating the tubes from the top. I think this weekend I'm gonna have to go ahead and use the hole saw.

It sounds to me like this is probably the case, the heat would definitely beat out the cool for the temperature of the pipe. Making the hole large enough to eliminate any direct contact should make a huge difference I would think.

or31acres · Nov 6, 2009

I'm planning on doing this with my Danby. I've got a couple of ideas I want to throw out there for comments:

1) use an adpater to increase the size of the pipe at the faucet end, and actually have the copper contact the shank to help keep it and the faucet cold (my setup is a box on top of the counter under which the little fridge sits, so I've got room to make the bend.)

2) use a T at the lower end where the beer hose comes into the fridge and run copper from the side branch -- I was going to just put it in front of the cold plate, but I hadn't thought about freezing. Now I'm thinking it would work well to immerse the copper in bucket of water set on the compressor shelf next to the CO2 tank -- this would eliminate the effect of the air temp on the copper.

BigJay13 · Nov 22, 2009

Sorry to reopen an old thread--has anyone tried this with a T tower? I'm building a T tower right now out of PVC and was going to cool it with copper. I am wondering if I will have to put 90 degree elbows in the tower and a short piece of copper to cool the beer line all the way to the shank or if it will be just fine to stop the copper where it enters the T. I plan on using some attic insulation in the top part and blow in insulation in the tower. I have a Danby kegerator with the cold plate in the back if that helps at all.

MacBruver · Nov 23, 2009

BigJay13 said:
Sorry to reopen an old thread--has anyone tried this with a T tower? I'm building a T tower right now out of PVC and was going to cool it with copper. I am wondering if I will have to put 90 degree elbows in the tower and a short piece of copper to cool the beer line all the way to the shank or if it will be just fine to stop the copper where it enters the T. I plan on using some attic insulation in the top part and blow in insulation in the tower. I have a Danby kegerator with the cold plate in the back if that helps at all.

You won't have to, but if it's not too much trouble you might as well do it. The problem is that the beer that sits in the lines there warm will just turn into foam when you crack the lever open. Now if you're only going to have an inch or two of exposed hose, then it won't be too bad... maybe only the first 1/4 to 1/2 of a pint would be pretty foamy. If you have more exposed than that, I'd go with the bends and extend the copper as far as you can go.

BigJay13 · Nov 24, 2009

MacBruver said:
You won't have to, but if it's not too much trouble you might as well do it. The problem is that the beer that sits in the lines there warm will just turn into foam when you crack the lever open. Now if you're only going to have an inch or two of exposed hose, then it won't be too bad... maybe only the first 1/4 to 1/2 of a pint would be pretty foamy. If you have more exposed than that, I'd go with the bends and extend the copper as far as you can go.

It looks like I'll have between 2 and 3 inches of exposed hose after it travels through 15 inches of pipe. I tried to put elbows on the end of the pipe but it looked like it bent the hose too sharply--I'm headed to home depot so I'll pick up a 45 degree and I'll see if that can get me closer.

DavidP · Nov 24, 2009

The gradual bend created by a spring bender might be the only way to get beer line around the bend.

AllanMar · Jan 31, 2010

Not sure if this thread is too old....but

This will be my second kegerator build, the first was a small chest freezer (2years or so ago). The freezer died so now I want something nicer looking/smaller (apartment). I got a DAR440 4.4cuft mini fridge and I've put my dual tap tower on. In my previous build i rigged up a small pc fan blowing directly up some 3"? dryer type tubing it worked...sorta.

That defiantly wont fit in the smaller fridge so i'm looking for something smaller/cleaner. This copper tubing idea would be great. I was planning to run it back toward the cold plate (thinking I could remove insulation at the top of the tower to combat freezing).

My real question however is, the only one who reported any results was Brad, and he serves his beer a 55oF. Anyone have any tower temps/results when serving at ~38oF?

Running a fan/blower for me is no problem, I already have a micro controller for temp/flow monitoring (originally, adding more to the new kegerator). But I like how clean/simple the copper is.

DrinksWellWithOthers · Jan 31, 2010

I haven't taken any temp readings of my beer but the copper tubing set up is pretty effective. My beer is cold enough to the point where the beer is probably colder than I prefer and I drink it slowly so it can warm up. I need to adjust the thermostat but I just haven't gotten around to it.

AllanMar · Jan 31, 2010

Whats your setup like? Is it a mini-fridge or chest freezer? How/how much copper did you run inside?

Any pictures?

RC0032 · Jan 31, 2010

did this yesterday so far so good! Thanks for the idea.

DrinksWellWithOthers · Jan 31, 2010

AllanMar said:
Whats your setup like? Is it a mini-fridge or chest freezer? How/how much copper did you run inside?

Any pictures?

No pics, sorry. I have an Oster 5.0 cf mini fridge with a single tower with 2 Perlicks. I believe I used 22" or 24" sections of copper and fit about 12" into the tower and the other 10-12" in the fridge. My set up looks similar to Keithsipa's pics earlier in this thread only my fridge is smaller so everything's a bit cramped but it fits and I don't have any problems.

BigJay13 · Feb 1, 2010

I did the copper tubing thing and it has worked great. The tubes stick about 2 inches down into the kegerator and end at the top of the T tower where the lines have to change direction. I'm very happy with this solution and wouldn't even consider using a fan and a hose.

Wingnutj · Feb 1, 2010

Props for this post Brad!
I read all the info from everyone and agree on your rig. I had planned to do the same thing on mine. I have an older mini and was going to run som tube over to the freezer part since I plan on moving and relocated this I have thought maybe even taking some tube and cutting a notch out of the tube and slide it (the freezer foil part between the tube) to have it not freeze the tube but make it conduct the colder temps and pass it on to the tower/lines. Mind you I plan on running a little more tube since its gonna be colder running between the freezer foil.

thanks again on the thread and everyones OP's are welcome!

bradsul · Feb 2, 2010

Glad to be of service! :mug:

My setup is still chugging away happily after all this time so it's definitely passing the longevity test so far.

mosquitocontrol · Mar 5, 2010

bradsul said:

Could anyone tell me what the piece is called that connects the 3" PVC to the fridge? Preferably a link to something comparable at Home Depot or Lowes for someone with my non-handyman status. I've heard it referred to as a toilet ring before, but any search of that gives me no results.

I just hate going into those giant stores not knowing exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks.

HomeBrewFoSho · Mar 5, 2010

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

They have more options in the store that are not the threaded type.

Jhenjum · Mar 5, 2010

mosquitocontrol said:
Could anyone tell me what the piece is called that connects the 3" PVC to the fridge? Preferably a link to something comparable at Home Depot or Lowes for someone with my non-handyman status. I've heard it referred to as a toilet ring before, but any search of that gives me no results.

I just hate going into those giant stores not knowing exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks.

It's called a closet or toilet flange.

babalu87 · Mar 5, 2010

I just use ice but mine is a daily/weekend use item

Its pretty popular at campgrounds

RatCity · Apr 18, 2010

Bradsul - just jerry-rigged a similar setup for my kegerator. Struggled for weeks with too much head on the first, second even third pour, and this fixed it COMPLETELY!

The tower is cold to the touch, the beers are pouring perfectly. Thanks man!

jeffmeh · May 23, 2010

I just rigged this up in my two tap kegerator. I used about 12" of copper for each line, with tees oriented like so: -|

The horizontal leg of the tees face the back, and come within a couple of inches of the top of the cold plate running up the back and extending a bit across the ceiling of the refrigerator.

I suspect this will work well, but given that I just finished the job I will have to give it some time to find out.

Thanks to Bradsul for the great idea.

BrewBeemer · May 23, 2010

jeffmeh said:
I just rigged this up in my two tap kegerator. I used about 12" of copper for each line, with tees oriented like so: -|

The horizontal leg of the tees face the back, and come within a couple of inches of the top of the cold plate running up the back and extending a bit across the ceiling of the refrigerator.

If you add a brass or copper plate, I used 3/8" x 3 5/8" wide brass soldered the full length on the horizontal copper tubes 17" long each leg. Nylon standoff spacers above the plate for air circulation. You'll increase the surface heat transfer area by a vast amount. American Iron and Brass happened to drop in the street a 16' x 3/8" thick x 3 5/8" slab of brass in front of my dads house, fell off their delivery truck so a freebie for us. A I & B had it insured as it was damaged and to keep it. This I put a piece to use as a increased heat transfer worked great plus used a 3" muffin fan to prevent temp stratification within the keezer as well helped cool the brass plate. First pour the same as others that follow. The electricity used by a muffin fan, the microwave oven or stove run for 5 minutes is way beyond the useage of a 3" muffin fan. Just one traffic light drag race eats more gas money than that muffin fan running for months, you have a night light in your bathroom wasting electricity? Come on if a few pennies breaks your brewing budget your in the wrong hobby.

bradsul · May 23, 2010

Why spend the money on electricity if you don't need to? That's just being wasteful when it's not at all necessary. My kegerator has been going strong with the original setup since this thread was posted almost 3 years ago without any issues at all.

BrewBeemer · May 23, 2010

A 3" muffin fan is a drop in the ocean difference in my electrical bill, the Tig welder can eat 131 amps cranked up plus the 1 HP lathe running by hours a week. Ya gots to be kidding me Brad, I don't live under candle light either.
just had to throw this back at ya bro. Leave the house with the front porch lights on for 5 hours eats 14 times more than a small 3" muffin fan. Bring on California's "Brown Outs" yeah baby I have my gas generator to leave my large carbon footprint.

bradsul · May 23, 2010

Do what you like, I have no interest in arguing with you. Those of us who enjoy being able to conserve our money and resources whenever possible will continue to do so.

jeffmeh · May 23, 2010

BrewBeemer said:
If you add a brass or copper plate, I used 3/8" x 3 5/8" wide brass soldered the full length on the horizontal copper tubes 17" long each leg. Nylon standoff spacers above the plate for air circulation. You'll increase the surface heat transfer area by a vast amount. American Iron and Brass happened to drop in the street a 16' x 3/8" thick x 3 5/8" slab of brass in front of my dads house, fell off their delivery truck so a freebie for us. A I & B had it insured as it was damaged and to keep it. This I put a piece to use as a increased heat transfer worked great plus used a 3" muffin fan to prevent temp stratification within the keezer as well helped cool the brass plate. First pour the same as others that follow. The electricity used by a muffin fan, the microwave oven or stove run for 5 minutes is way beyond the useage of a 3" muffin fan. Just one traffic light drag race eats more gas money than that muffin fan running for months, you have a night light in your bathroom wasting electricity? Come on if a few pennies breaks your brewing budget your in the wrong hobby.

If it does not work as is, I am thinking that I could put 7" brass rod in each of the tees to increase the thermal mass. Alternatively, I could run the copper pipe so that it touches the cold plate (or do the same with brass rod), but I would be a bit concerned that the lines would freeze. Should I be concerned about this, or are they unlikely to freeze?

Also, I really would like to avoid the fan, and keep this entirely passive.

Thanks for the input.

BrewBeemer · May 23, 2010

bradsul said:
Do what you like, I have no interest in arguing with you. Those of us who enjoy being able to conserve our money and resources whenever possible will continue to do so.

That's why we below ya Brad have an eye on your oil reserves, LOL!

On another note when we started to have power shortage problems in Calif. years ago we went on minimum energy useage, water, gas and electric in the household. Later on they wanted everyone to cut back by 10% more. I was already at the bare minimum and hammered by going over this reduced demanded amount many times with multi tier rate increase fines. For being a Mr. nice guy I got big overcharge utility bills way over the amounts used vs being wasteful in the first place. Being a IBEW wireman I understand how these idiots think hence I use what I damn well please in energy. Sorry not to start a pissing war or OT, had to state my reasons. BTW the 3" muffin fan I use draws 190 mA a big energy wasting fan of 22.8 watts or three 7 1/2 watt night lights. Add a few cell phone chargers plus the TV's red off LED i'm way over the top. Thanks Brad, not to be OT. Carl.

Catt22 · May 23, 2010

BrewBeemer said:
That's why we below ya Brad have an eye on your oil reserves, LOL!

Not to mention all that lumber they got up there. I think we could invade and take over without even firing a shot. Do they even have an army? There aren't even many people up there at all. It would be like exploiting the new world a second time. And Beaver too! Now, tell me, is there a man among you that doesn't like beaver? Let's roll, it'll be a cake walk.

BrewBeemer · May 24, 2010

Well catt, if they're from the eastern part just take their small sample plates they call dinner and pour some Heinz 57 all over the top, they will drop like flies in shock, not a shot fired.
Beautyful country but too wet for my liking riding scooters.
I telling ya I got hammerered big time with utilities being Mr. Nice and i'm not a tree hugger or hater. If one wants to save energy how many BTU's are wasted during a boil or the fermenting fridges, carbon foot print big time.
We can't have coal fired electricty in Calif but buy electricity from out of state that does, makes no sense. I stiil romp on my 68 F250 PU, 520" MPI in the planning stages the 482" is too small. I must go run over a few more electric cars, i'm off.

PVC Tower Cooling Solution

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