Is a wort chiller necessary?

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impatient

impatient

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According to what I have read, a wort cooler is used to bring the wort down to pitching tempurature as quickly as possible. By infecting the wort with yeast asap the yeast will be able fight off any wild yeast or contaminates.

How would the wort get infected if you left the wort covered during cooling?

Are there other reasons besides infection that you want to cool the wort asap?
 
it's not an absolute have to have if you're doing smaller batches and use an ice bath. But once you step up to full 5+ gallon boils it's the only way to cool the wort fast enough so something doesn't get into it.
 
impatient said:
How would the wort get infected if you left the wort covered during cooling?

Are there other reasons besides infection that you want to cool the wort asap?
Click to expand...

Covering the wort while cooling can easily cause DMS to condense into very noticable levels in your finished product. MMM! Creamed corn beer anyone?

Slow cool also = poor cold break = poor protein coagulation and sedimentation = cloudy beer in glass

These two reasons are plenty enough for me to make sure I cool asap. Actually either one is plenty reason enough. THEN there is the increased chance of contamination.
 
Used one for the first time on my third brew, I will never go back, so much easier and in the long run cheaper then buying bags of ice.
 
DMS, a distinctive cooked corn/cabbage aroma, is another concern if the wort is not cooled to below 140° as quickly as possible. Also, a strong hot and cold break are necessary to precipitate various proteins and tannins that contribute to stability issues in the final beer.

Think of another way: wort is a food product, and as such, must be brought out of the 'danger zone' (cue Kenny Loggins) as quickly as possible to prevent bacterial contamination. Lactobacillus and other spoilage organisms can quickly infect- temperatures around 120° are perfect incubation temps for these nasties, not to mention botulism.

There are absolutely no negative consequences in rapid cooling, only positives. Think about it.
 
I did a full boil on my first batch, and cooled with nothing but sanitized gallon milk jugs that had been filled with water and left to freeze. My batch turned out fine. I suppose I'll get one eventually, but I'm not in a hurry. Plus, If you're handy (I'm not) I've heard they can be easy to make.
 
impatient said:
How would the wort get infected if you left the wort covered during cooling?
quote]

Cooling causes a lower pressure to exsist inside the cooling wort, thus causing air to be drawn into the cooling vessel which could contain contaminates. This combined with the right temperture for airbourne contaminates to flourish could make your brew go bad, especially when you factor the time that the wort is in this temperture range.

Did you note the word thus? Never get to use that much.:mug:
Click to expand...
 
hcarter said:
I did a full boil on my first batch, and cooled with nothing but sanitized gallon milk jugs that had been filled with water and left to freeze. My batch turned out fine. I suppose I'll get one eventually, but I'm not in a hurry. Plus, If you're handy (I'm not) I've heard they can be easy to make.
Click to expand...

Most people do an ice bath to start with, and then move to an Immersion chiller, which it basically coper hose coiled up with hoses clamped to each end and one of those hoses has an faucet adapter so that you can run cold water through it.

VERY simple to make.

Some advanced IC's feature a pump which can pump icewater from the sink through the chiller, and back into the ice water. This will get you colder, faster. The coiled copper is placed inside the pot and the wort is swirled around to allow the cold tubing to cool the wort.

A counterflow chiller is similar in design, but the copper tubing is inside a piece of garden hose. This time the wort runs through the copper tubing, while the cold tap water runs through the garden hose. This is def. a more complicated device, but can bring your temps down very fast. The additional fittings to make it work raise the cost a bit, and require a little more skill in putting together.
 
flyangler18 said:
DMS, a distinctive cooked corn/cabbage aroma, is another concern if the wort is not cooled to below 140° as quickly as possible. Also, a strong hot and cold break are necessary to precipitate various proteins and tannins that contribute to stability issues in the final beer.
...
Click to expand...

Gah, I was happy taking my time cooling my wort, infections have never been an issue but this is definitely something to think about, and more money to spend!
 
You should be able to lower a 3 gallon rolling boil to ~90F in an aluminum pot using ice
and water in about 15 min. I used 3-4 gallons of cold water and about 25 pounds of ice.

John Palmer On DiMethyl Sulfides (DMS):

"DMS is continuously produced in the wort while it is hot and is usually removed by
vaporization during the boil. If the wort is cooled slowly these compounds will not be
removed from the wort and will dissolve back in. Thus it is important to not completely
cover the brewpot during the boil or allow condensate to drip back into the pot from
the lid. The wort should also be cooled quickly after the boil, either by immersing in
an ice bath or using a wort chiller. "
 
If the primary flavors in a batch are diacetyl and DMS, will it taste like buttered corn-on-the-cob?

:p
 
Homercidal said:
Some advanced IC's feature a pump which can pump icewater from the sink through the chiller, and back into the ice water. This will get you colder, faster. The coiled copper is placed inside the pot and the wort is swirled around to allow the cold tubing to cool the wort.
Click to expand...

Are these available commercially, or are the IC's of this design homemade only? I like an IC better than a CFC because of cleaning and sanitation reasons, and had never thought to recirculate the water from an icebath. That would save tremendously on my water bill. The one I have was homemade from 1/2" copper tube, one coil around the other.
 
Nice! Well, off to the Depot tonight to pick up more parts. Honey, honestly, I NEED it, really bad. :)
 
flyangler18 said:
Homemade! If you currently have an IC, you just need a suitably sized pond pump to recirculate the water. See below:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/recirculating-ice-water-chiller-38235/
Click to expand...
Until recently I used a pond pump to circulate cold water through an IC. When this was my method, I did not re-circulate the water back into the cold water reservoir. I just allowed the warmed water to exit to the drain. It seemed counter-productive to warm the cooling water. My $.02
 
I am very new to this since I have only been brewing for over a month but I got my chiller the first day and I wouldn't want to brew with out it! I have only done 5 gallon boils and my little chiller will take it down to 75 in 12-15 minutes. You just cant beat that. Its worth it to me just for the time savings. I just wish I new about this site before I got mine so I could have saved some cash! Still its my favorite piece of equipment so far.
 
Hugh_Jass said:
Until recently I used a pond pump to circulate cold water through an IC. When this was my method, I did not re-circulate the water back into the cold water reservoir. I just allowed the warmed water to exit to the drain. It seemed counter-productive to warm the cooling water. My $.02
Click to expand...


That's exactly what I do during the first couple of minutes, then recirculate.
 
Just for clarification:

DiMethyl Sulfides, doesn't it make sense to keep the lid on during cooling to prevent
infection, and off during boil to facilitate evaporation?

I leave the lid on during cooling due to fear of contamination. With my aluminum pot,
I cool 3 gallons to pitching temp within 20 minutes using an ice bath.
 
StoutFan said:
Are these available commercially, or are the IC's of this design homemade only? I like an IC better than a CFC because of cleaning and sanitation reasons, and had never thought to recirculate the water from an icebath. That would save tremendously on my water bill. The one I have was homemade from 1/2" copper tube, one coil around the other.
Click to expand...

I have a cooler I fill with ice water and I use a sump pump ($50 at Harbor Freight) to recirculate the water through the IC. I leave the outlet hose in the driveway for the first gallon or so through the chiller which is boiling hot and then when the outlet water is cooler I redirect the flow back into the cooler and add ice until I get to pitching temp.
 
Also if you are brewing near your laundry room you can use the run-off water to wash clothes later, so you don't waste water. Also useful for cleanup. I hope when my rig is up and running that I won't need to waste any cooling water.
 
0202 said:
Just for clarification:

DiMethyl Sulfides, doesn't it make sense to keep the lid on during cooling to prevent
infection, and off during boil to facilitate evaporation?

I leave the lid on during cooling due to fear of contamination. With my aluminum pot,
I cool 3 gallons to pitching temp within 20 minutes using an ice bath.
Click to expand...

From everything I have read DMS is produced anytime the wort is above 140*; so, if its below 140 then go ahead and put the lid on!

edit: I can't find anything to support my theory of 140*; but, I think it's right.
 
My first two batches (AG) I did not have an IC so I used ice baths on 2.5 gallons at a time.

On my third AG batch, I used my homemade IC with a recirculating ice bath for the first time, and will never go without it.

The cold break that it created was phenomenal, actually freaky looking, but in a good way.

Necessary? No. Exceptional if you have one? Yes.
 
StoutFan said:
Are these available commercially, or are the IC's of this design homemade only? I like an IC better than a CFC because of cleaning and sanitation reasons, and had never thought to recirculate the water from an icebath. That would save tremendously on my water bill. The one I have was homemade from 1/2" copper tube, one coil around the other.
Click to expand...

Many people prefer the IC to the CFC for this reason, but honestly, there isn't much difference in cleaning methods. I run hot water through my CFC after use, and then some cleaner and starsan before using again. Only slightly more work IMO.

If you go with a pump and IC, then you added enough extra stuff to make up the difference. I just screw onto faucet and slip hose from spigot onto CF, other hose on drain into fermenter, and run cold water from faucet for a minute or two to cool the copper and then open the spigot.

When it's done, I run hot water through the hoses and flush out the wort, and then auto-siphon some starsan in there and let sit for a couple of minutes. Tip the CFC so the starsan runs out and put back on shelf.

Again, I think that an IC is a great device and certainly loads better than an ice bath method if you want to drop the money on some copper tubing, but the CFC was fun to make and IMO cools faster and easier. I can turn it on and not have to stand there swirling the thing like I would with an IC. I can already be washing up my equipment and getting ready to pitch the yeast.
 
DiMethyl Sulfides, doesn't it make sense to keep the lid on during cooling to prevent
infection, and off during boil to facilitate evaporation?
Click to expand...

If the wort is hot enough to produce vapor, the vapor condensing on the lid is laden with DMS compounds which are falling right back into your wort. We have to remember that we are not working in sterile conditions, so the risk of infection is never eliminated only mitigated by good sanitary practices. Many older breweries on the other side of the pond have open fermenters (not just with the funky Belgians, mind you) and rely on a very robust vigorous yeast strain to effectively eliminate infection issues.

Consider as well length of exposure. A small colony of lactobacillus that falls into your cooling wort isn't going to instantly ruin it- but wort that is sluggishly cooling is far more susceptible to infection simplly as a function of time and exposure. You want to cool as rapidly as possible to pitching temps so you can get the wort into the fermentation vessel and pitch your yeast.

This is why pitching an appropriate amount of healthy yeast is important; any microbes that find their way into the wort are quickly outcompeted by ravenous brewer's yeast.

Some comments,
Jason
 
nealf said:
From everything I have read DMS is produced anytime the wort is above 140*; so, if its below 140 then go ahead and put the lid on!

edit: I can't find anything to support my theory of 140*; but, I think it's right.
Click to expand...

It might not be being produced below 140 but it is still being vaporized and eliminated between 140 and 80 and it is still critical that the vapor is not recondensed and dropped back into the wort during this period.

This is much more critical for obvious reasons for lightly flavored beers because the DMS will stand out all the more.
 
I'm looking into an Immersion Chiller as well.

Currently only doing a partial 2 gal boils. So what we do is sanitize 2 extra 1.5 gallon pots (ya know the one you use for spaghetti) and put one on each side of the split sink and fill that with a water/ice bath. When the wort boil is done I then pour the boiled wort into each of these pots. I have to be very careful to not burn the sh*t out of myself, as well as controlling the pour to avoid splashing mess. However it is very effective, I average 18 min to pitching temp (Ale's only currently).

When I asked the LHBS store about the IC that suddenly was gone, he said why bother your already at 18 min. I can appreciate that but sorry to try and give you money, lol. I do want to move to an IC because I know one of these days I am going to pour bad and lose my wort or worse, burn myself or swmbo.
 
im an hvac guy so i had the necessary stuff to make myself one and i love it! i'll post some pics when i can. made it out of 3/8 copper and vinyl tubing and fits perfectly in my 5 gal. pot. what i do is fill up my sink with cold water, then put about 4 or 5, 20 oz. frozen water bottles in it. i do this about 10 minutes before time to cool, then move my pot to the sink and start the process. works great for me and pulls it down in no time.
 
think of the No-Chill method
Click to expand...

Makes perfect sense that this would work as you are putting into an airtight sanitary environment. It is the same prinicipal as getting those kits that have premade wort, or even frozen food. If you really wanted you could vacume seal it instead of turning it upside down (which i image is to kill any airborn baddies left in there with hot wort steam) and store for a good while longer I am sure. I think the cool quick and pitch is just to reduce infection chances from airborn baddies...
 
I bought 25 feet of 1/2 inch copper tubing and some hose clamps. I had some 5/8 tubing and a garden hose repair kit laying around.

So, I threw this together. I plan to try it out tommorow.

IMG_0901.JPG
 
conpewter said:
What do you all think of the No-Chill method that some Aussies are employing now?

HyperFox - The No-Chiller Method / Using A Cube

I have not tried it, and flies against a lot of common practices, but seems to work for lots of folks.
Click to expand...

I think it is a terrible practice that will bite you in the butt the first time you taste a beer with cooked corn or cabbage taste to it. Until you experience it you can't imagine how bad this is. But once you do you will not forget it.

This practice would actually encourage and enhance the production of DMS.

EDIT: Also Forget about aroma hops with this method. They would have absolutely ZERO chance of contributing anything useful to your beer.

Honestly, I would rather put my uncovered kettle in an icebath in the middle of the shower room at my local YMCA than to utilize this ill-conceived idea.

Contrary to what salepeople for the cube would want you to believe, I don't believe it works for lots of folks.
 
I'm going to try the no-chiller method. The Aussies seem to be in to this huge. I like the idea of being able to pitch stored wort on a just-been-racked yeast cake. Seems like you could get into a pretty productive cycle and shorten the brew day down a bit.

Couple the no chiller method with full volume AG brew-in-a-bag for added controversy and a considerably shortened, cheaper, less equipped brew day which might like this:

EQUIPMENT/INGREDIENTS:

  • beer in the primary that's ready to be kegged.
  • a previously stored 'cube' of wort
  • a keggle, a big ass grain bag and a burner
  • grain, hops, full volume of water

BREWING:

  • conduct brew in a bag technique as usual
  • while that's mashing and boiling rack your beer from primary to secondary, keg, or bottling bucket
  • Pitch stored wort on to that yeast cake (style, recipe, taste permitting)
  • wash and sanitize the now empty cube
  • transfer your near boiling wort to empty cube

Now all you have to do is wait a week or so and repeat the process!

Here's the 3 year old 60+ page thread on the topic that has a lot of results, questions, answers.

Users Of The "no Chiller Method" - AussieHomeBrewer.com

Disclaimer: I'm a new AGer with 5 batches under my belt and just hit my targets for the first time last batch. So yes, I'm knee deep in the discovery phase of my brewery and tend to over-simplify ****.
 
conpewter said:
What do you all think of the No-Chill method that some Aussies are employing now?

HyperFox - The No-Chiller Method / Using A Cube

I have not tried it, and flies against a lot of common practices, but seems to work for lots of folks.
Click to expand...

Probably works fine with an ale malt and ale fermentation since there isn't got to be detectable DMS in these beers no matter how you cool them (see Fix, Principles of Brewing Science). Personally I would prefer to get the cold break but I am not sure how important that is if you don't need the beer to be stable (you are going to drink it fast).

I wouldn't try it with a lager.
 
The first AG batch I did was in a 7.5 gallon aluminum turkey fryer pot. I was used to doing the icebath method since I had up until now been doing 2.5 or so gallon extract boils then adding ice and water to it. With the full boil AG though the icebath was taking FOREVER.. being drunk and tired, I just put it in the beer fridge, lid on top, thermometer that came with the flier in the hole at the top. The next morning I put it in a primary, pitched yeast.. best beer I had ever made.. I did this about two more times until I got my keggle setup. Now Ive only done one batch via keggle (will my second tomorrow woohoo) so I made a 50ft immersion chiller since it wouldve taken THAT forever, and I dont have a fridge big enough for 11ish gallons :p

SHOULD I have left the pot in the fridge?.. all I know is it worked fine and I had no problems..anyone Ive told this to said i just got lucky..whatever it is. Much easier and faster though with a chiller, the one you made looks great!
 

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