is steeping oats with specialty grain the same as cerial mashing?

Hi all, new to the forum but have been reading this forum for about 6 month.

I am new to brewing and so far extract with specialty grain only.

I have a queston, I bought a kit for a cream stout that I plan to brew up tonight but I want to add oatmeal to it, I am taking the old fashion rolled oats that I eat for breakfast and using this. My research tells me that I need to do a cerial mash or just plain cook the oats first to convert the startchs.

One source tells me to just follow the cooking instruction on the box, other source tell me to cerial mash, which I guess is just basicly a seperate small mash that isolates the oat grains (I am guessing) from the rest of the mash for a more thurrow process?

Anyway, long story short. I am not mashing I am only steeping the specialty grain for 60 minutes at 155F, this seems to be the same as "cooking" or "cerial mashing"

Can I just add my old fashion rolled oat to my other grain and steep away with out pre-cooking?

I have also read about putting the oats in the overn to get more flavor or change the flavor not sure which, what advantage would this do for me and could I consider baking the oats the same as cooking the oats. And at what temprature should I bake @ if I descide to bake the oats? 155F?

Thanks for any advise and forgive bad spelling.

thanks

Welcome to HBT!

I think you answered your own question in there: "I am not mashing I am only steeping" Steeping is steeping, mashing is mashing. If a recipe calls for a cereal mash, then you're going to have to perform a cereal mash. I haven't done one myself, so I can't give you the gritty details. I did read up on one at one point, in preparations for a brew that never actually happened, and I do recall that it wasn't anything akin to steeping.

As to pre-cooking the oats - I believe that's about toasting the oats, correct? In that case, it certainly wouldn't take the place of any kind of mash - there's no water involved, so no medium for enzymatic activity to perform any conversion. Kind of the opposite of steeping, where there's TOO much medium (water) for effective enzymatic activity for conversion to occur.

Cereal mashing is a way to mash the cereal grains with base grain, then cooking the cereal (oats, corn, etc), so it's very different than steeping.

You do want to cook the oats before using in your beer. An easy way to use oats is either to use "quick oats" or instant oats, or oats from the brew store. If they are old fashioned oats, they must be cooked. You can cook them, simply by making oatmeal. Make the oatmeal, and then use in a mash.

Yes, I said mash! You should not steep oats, as they would only add starch to the beer. Some people do it, and if you're making a dark beer and the starch haze isn't visible than it doesn't seem to bother them. Since this is a cream stout, you may not notice a starch haze but you probably won't get the nice silky mouthfeel you're looking for when you use oats.

What I would do in this case is add a pound of crushed base grain to the rest of the grains, and mash (steep) them in a bag at 150-155 for an hour in 2 quarts of water per pound of grain. (That's a mash, and that can use your oats (oatmeal) and give you a partial mash.

If you're brewing tonight and can not get a pound of base grain, you can try steeping the cooked oats. It might just be a thick blob of oatmeal, though.

Thanks for the quick reply. Ok, here is what I think I understand:

Too me steeping Oatmeal would be the same as mashing as in BIAB method at 155F, so I was thinking that steeping oats and mashing oats would be one in the same with this thought process. But the difference being I am doing two things at the same time? Steeping the specialty grain and mashing BIAB the oats all in the same bag with the specialty grain acting as the base grain though it really isn't base grain, just thought I could get away with it, seems this is not the case.

You can cook them, simply by making oatmeal. Make the oatmeal, and then use in a mash.

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This sounds to me that I should cook the oatmeal then just add the liquid to the wort and leave the solid behind as in a traditional mash?

What I would do in this case is add a pound of crushed base grain to the rest of the grains, and mash (steep) them in a bag at 150-155 for an hour in 2 quarts of water per pound of grain. (That's a mash, and that can use your oats (oatmeal) and give you a partial mash.

Click to expand...

This is sort of what I was thinking, so in order to cereal mash I need a pound of base grain to add to my oats and specialty grain, if I plan on using 8oz of oats + 1 pound of base grain I need 1-1/2 quarts of water for my mash? I can't consider my specialty grain as base grain for a cereal mash, huh?

If I go to the store and buy some instant oatmeal I can bypass all this and just add it to my steep bag? I am not sure I have ever seen instant oatmeal that didn't have all that extra stuff added to it, you know peach, bananna, blueberry etc. can you give me a good instant oatmeal to look for that will work right out of the box/package?

This is all good stuff thanks for the education.

Clarke said:

Thanks for the quick reply. Ok, here is what I think I understand:

Too me steeping Oatmeal would be the same as mashing as in BIAB method at 155F, so I was thinking that steeping oats and mashing oats would be one in the same with this thought process. But the difference being I am doing two things at the same time? Steeping the specialty grain and mashing BIAB the oats all in the same bag with the specialty grain acting as the base grain though it really isn't base grain, just thought I could get away with it, seems this is not the case.


This sounds to me that I should cook the oatmeal then just add the liquid to the wort and leave the solid behind as in a traditional mash?

Click to expand...

No, the BIAB/mashing thing is not the same as steeping specialty grains. That's where your logic is flawed.

In order to have a mash (BIAB or otherwise), you must have base grain that can and will convert. You can steep specialty grains for a year, and not get conversion (starch to sugar). Base grain is THE key in a mash. Without it, you're just soaking grains.

Cooking oatmeal and then using the liquid is not going to work, as the idea of the mash is to convert the starches to fermentable sugars. Using the liquid out of oatmeal (and there isn't any, anyway, if you've ever eaten oatmeal you'll notice it's very thick) wouldn't work.

And since Yooper didn't explicitly state it - no, you cannot use your specialty grains as base grains. Base grains are base grains specifically because of the amount of enzymes they contribute to the mash - those enzymes in turn break down starches and complex sugars into simpler sugars that yeast can ferment. Without the enzymes that the base grains would contribute, you'd wind up with too much residual starch left over from the oats - the siuation Yoop originally described.

Some specialty grains do contribute some of those enzymes, but you really need some true base grain (2-row, pale malt, etc) to really ensure that you've got enough enzymes there to ensure that all the starches will be processed correctly.

Yooper's explanation is much better than I can do. She is spot on here.

(deleted part of post, I understand what I didn't before)

My last question, can someone tell me what to look for at the grocer for instant oatmeal that doesn't have all the added junk. Brand name, off brand name, I don't care just a name so I don't have to think or research "instant oatmeal" and get it wrong, what would you guru's use?

Thanks again all, you are all very helpful.

Let me see if I understand before I claim to..

Basicly if I don't use a base grain I get oatmeal, a clump. I need to mash the oats with a base grain to get a mini wort to add to my main wort.

I guess my confusion was I am using an extract not making a mash, so I don't know how to add the cerial mash to a mash that doesn't exist, and since not using a base grain and only oats will make oatmeal, no liquid I need a base grain to make a mini wort to add to my main wort.

I promise this will be the end of it...

thanks

For flaked or quick oats you don't need to cereal mash, they have already been gelatinized (a hydration process that prepares starches for chemical cleaving) in the process of making them into flakes. All that means is they are prime for conversion when put in the presense of enzymes under the right conditions (i.e. mashing with base grains). Oats on their own have no diastatic power..they have no starch conversion enzymes. You can tell to what extent a grain contributes enzymes by it's diastatic power, measured in Lintner. Here are some common values:

■American 2 Row Pale Malt: 140 °L
■American 6 Row Pale Malt: 160 °L
■British Pale Malts: 40-70 °L
■Maris Otter Pale Malt: 120 °L
■Belgian Pale Malt (2 row): 60 °L
■German Pilsner Malt: 110 °L
■Munich Malt (10 SRM): 70 °L
■Munich Malt (20 SRM): 25 °L
■Vienna Malt: 50 °L
■Wheat Malt, German: 60-90 °L
■Wheat, Unmalted (flaked, Torrified): 0 °L
■Crystal Malt (all): 0 °L
■Chocolate Malt: 0°L
■Black Patent Malts: 0 °L

Malt extract actually does have some distatic power also.

My ah-ha moment, thanks Helibrewer

Diastatic power refers to the enzymatic power of the malt itself – its ability to break down starches into even simpler fermentable sugars during the mashing process.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/diastatic-power-and-mashing-your-beer/

So I do need to cereal mash old fashion oat to convert the starch to suger and the base grain contributes to the Diastatic of the oats, in a round about uneducated assumption of the definition.

I am getting closer to understanding... awsome

One thing...if you are just doing an extract recipe using oats it is fine to steep them, in fact I think Midwest Supplies pre-mixes the oats with the steeping grains in their Oatmeal Stout kit...you're not looking for fermentable sugar, you're looking for body and mouthfeel in this case.

So close. The cereal mash gets the starches ready. The mash converts the starch to sugar.

One thing...if you are just doing an extract recipe using oats it is fine to steep them, in fact I think Midwest Supplies pre-mixes the oats with the steeping grains in their Oatmeal Stout kit...you're not looking for fermentable sugar, you're looking for body and mouthfeel in this case.

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you're looking for body and mouthfeel in this case

Click to expand...

This is exactly what I am looking for... So I hate ask this again, do I need to cook or cereal mash my old fashion oat to achive body and mouthfeel? (not to start all over again )

So close. The cereal mash gets the starches ready. The mash converts the starch to sugar.

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Thank you Woodland...

Do you have to? No, you don't really have to do it any one way. Will it make a better beer? I think so. I don't like starch in my beer.

Cook the oats to gelatinize. Mash them with a base malt to convert the starch to sugar.

I think the part you are getting hung up on is that there are several ways to gelatenize the starches, and also several ways to convert them into sugars. Also they are two different things, but have some things common.

Thank you all...

Sorry to dig up an old thread and risk disturbing the trub ...but I had the exact thought this fella did, and the search function brought up this one...and I think I almost understand this (my brewing kits in in the mail..hence Im not even a noob yet.)

I have the Midwest Irish Stout kit coming and like the main character here, I thought *maybe I can add oats to the steep*, I also noticed their Oatmeal stout kit includes them in the specialty grains, sooo what the hey.

But, Im feeling realisitcally confident, and if I were to do a mini-mash of oats (quick oats) and base grain, I would simply add the resulting mash to my main boil at the beginning and go from there?

SO..I would 1) Cook the oats 2) add them with the appropriate amount of water for my oat / grain weights 3) Go for 150 degrees (I will double check mash temps) for the appropriate amount of time 4) add to my boil pot when adding the DME and take it from there?

(I know I should just brew the kit as it, but I am quite comfortable in the kitchen and this doesn't seem like rocket science so long as I can grasp this one painfully simple concept.)

You might want to rinse the grains and the oats (a mini sparge) to get some more residual sugars but with only 1 pound of each it might not be worth your trouble. Check the brew in a bag (BIAB) tutorial in the all grain section for more detailed info on partial mash.