Partial Mash vice Steeping - What's the difference?

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Verio

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So, as the title states, what's the huge difference? When can I click the "Partial Mash" button in Beer Smith? The instructions in a recipe clone I want to use, talk about "steeping" the grains at a certain temperature, and then pouring water over the top to rinse the grains. Isn't that essentially what mashing is?

I know you need specific grains to convert the enzymes to sugar, but how do I know what those grains are, and when I've gone from steeping to mashing?

I can post a list of the grains in the recipe and perhaps I'll technically be doing a partial mash. Specifically, it calls for Flaked Oats, which I've heard numerous times is non-fermentable unless it's been mashed and not steeped.

Thanks
 
check this out: click here

read the section about steeping, and the section about mashing.

Theres also a list of different specialty grains. It does a nice job of describing characteristics, as well as indicating which need to be mashed and which can be steeped.

Basically, mashing differs from steeping in that you are trying to get fermentables via the breakdown of starches to sugars. It requires a certain balance of temp/time/and percentage of grain with enzyme potential.

Steeping, on the other hand, extracts the flavor and color from grains that have already been "converted" during the kilning process. You dont usually get a high percentage of fermentables from specialy grain, if any.

When you steep grains, the bulk of your fermentables are comming from your extract... whereas when you mash, you are basically making your extract.

hope that helps.. check out palmers book for more info.
 
Verio said:
So, as the title states, what's the huge difference? When can I click the "Partial Mash" button in Beer Smith? The instructions in a recipe clone I want to use, talk about "steeping" the grains at a certain temperature, and then pouring water over the top to rinse the grains. Isn't that essentially what mashing is?
Click to expand...

Keep in mind if you have Beersmith, it has right on the recipe which grains must be mashed and which can be steeped. Put your recipe as an "extract" batch and if you have grains that must be mashed you get a red ! next to the items that must be mashed. Plus, it tells you in the ingredients list which grains must be mashed.

The technique for steeping and mashing is nearly identical. The differences lie in the water volume- due to the necessary pH for conversion, you want to mash with a precise volume of water. Like 1.25-1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain. Not "about 2 gallons", like in steeping. Also, temperature is much more important. The precise volume of water and grain must be kept at 150-155 degrees for 45-60 minutes. Otherwise, the technique is very similar.

I've mentioned before that when I was starting out I always did the same technique whether the recipe was for a PM or extract with steeping grains. Bring the water to 165. Add the steeping grains, stirring well. Check the temperature- it should be 150-155. Stir well again, cover, and set the timer for 45 minutes. After the timer beeps, lift up the grain bag, put it in a strainer, and pour 170 degree water over the grains.

That works with either PM or steeping grains, so it's just good practice to do it all the time.

As far as which grains need to be mashed, and which can be steeped, it's easiest to just remember that any grains with the words "cara-", "crystal" or "chocolate" can be steeped. Crystal malts can be steeped, and the words cara-anything are caramel/crystal malts.
 
Yooper said:
Keep in mind if you have Beersmith, it has right on the recipe which grains must be mashed and which can be steeped. Put your recipe as an "extract" batch and if you have grains that must be mashed you get a red ! next to the items that must be mashed. Plus, it tells you in the ingredients list which grains must be mashed.

The technique for steeping and mashing is nearly identical. The differences lie in the water volume- due to the necessary pH for conversion, you want to mash with a precise volume of water. Like 1.25-1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain. Not "about 2 gallons", like in steeping. Also, temperature is much more important. The precise volume of water and grain must be kept at 150-155 degrees for 45-60 minutes. Otherwise, the technique is very similar.

I've mentioned before that when I was starting out I always did the same technique whether the recipe was for a PM or extract with steeping grains. Bring the water to 165. Add the steeping grains, stirring well. Check the temperature- it should be 150-155. Stir well again, cover, and set the timer for 45 minutes. After the timer beeps, lift up the grain bag, put it in a strainer, and pour 170 degree water over the grains.

That works with either PM or steeping grains, so it's just good practice to do it all the time.

As far as which grains need to be mashed, and which can be steeped, it's easiest to just remember that any grains with the words "cara-", "crystal" or "chocolate" can be steeped. Crystal malts can be steeped, and the words cara-anything are caramel/crystal malts.
Click to expand...

Okay, this makes sense.... but I'm a bit confused about the grains that "can" be steeped. So, I have Flaked Oats, that MUST be mashed, but I also have a lot of crystal-type grains that can be steeped.

Can I mash them all together, or should I do the calculation of the PM just for the Flaked Oats, and then steep the other grains separately? This will be my official "first" mash, and I have some anxiety over the correct way to do this.
 
Verio said:
Okay, this makes sense.... but I'm a bit confused about the grains that "can" be steeped. So, I have Flaked Oats, that MUST be mashed, but I also have a lot of crystal-type grains that can be steeped.

Can I mash them all together, or should I do the calculation of the PM just for the Flaked Oats, and then steep the other grains separately? This will be my official "first" mash, and I have some anxiety over the correct way to do this.
Click to expand...

They all go in together. No need to separate the grains.

But you have to have some grain to convert the flaked oats. Like 6-row or 2-row, or maris otter. Adjuncts like corn and oats don't convert themselves.
 
Yooper said:
They all go in together. No need to separate the grains.

But you have to have some grain to convert the flaked oats. Like 6-row or 2-row, or maris otter. Adjuncts like corn and oats don't convert themselves.
Click to expand...

Hmm... this complicates things immensely :)

I have a spare cooler, but I'm not terribly excited about trying to make a Mash Tun out of it. Most of the online videos I've seen are too daunting or way too complicated.
 
Verio said:
Hmm... this complicates things immensely :)

I have a spare cooler, but I'm not terribly excited about trying to make a Mash Tun out of it. Most of the online videos I've seen are too daunting or way too complicated.
Click to expand...

You don't need a mash tun! A grain bag would work just fine. You can either mash the grain in a pot, or even your bottling bucket, without any problems.
 
Yooper said:
You don't need a mash tun! A grain bag would work just fine. You can either mash the grain in a pot, or even your bottling bucket, without any problems.
Click to expand...

Can I just adjust the amount of DME/LME for 2-row (or a similar fermentable grain) and adjust accordingly in Beer Smith? I'll do the research on the flavor profiles and the correct substitute, I just want to make sure I'm going down the right road here.
 
Verio said:
Can I just adjust the amount of DME/LME for 2-row (or a similar fermentable grain) and adjust accordingly in Beer Smith? I'll do the research on the flavor profiles and the correct substitute, I just want to make sure I'm going down the right road here.
Click to expand...

Sure. A good way to do a partial mash is to make your specialty grains "equal" to the amount of two-row. So, if you have 2 pounds of specialty grains altogether, use 2 pounds of 2-row to ensure conversion. Use 2-row for any LME/DME in a recipe, as a rule. If you're subbing for a dark DME, that's trickier because only the manufacturer knows what's in the "dark" extracts.

If you use a grain bag in a pot (or in any container), make sure the grains are loose in the bag, and not tightly packed. Don't jam 4 pounds of grain in a three pound sack, for example! Use two grain bags, or however many you need, so that the grain is very loose in the bag and can easily be stirred and thoroughly wetted. Those paint strainer bags work great, and are much cheaper than the grain bags at the LHBS.
 
Yooper said:
Sure. A good way to do a partial mash is to make your specialty grains "equal" to the amount of two-row. So, if you have 2 pounds of specialty grains altogether, use 2 pounds of 2-row to ensure conversion. Use 2-row for any LME/DME in a recipe, as a rule. If you're subbing for a dark DME, that's trickier because only the manufacturer knows what's in the "dark" extracts.

If you use a grain bag in a pot (or in any container), make sure the grains are loose in the bag, and not tightly packed. Don't jam 4 pounds of grain in a three pound sack, for example! Use two grain bags, or however many you need, so that the grain is very loose in the bag and can easily be stirred and thoroughly wetted. Those paint strainer bags work great, and are much cheaper than the grain bags at the LHBS.
Click to expand...

This sounds much easier than I thought it would be. I'm planning a Stout, but would be using just Amber LME with Light DME. I think a substitute of *some* 2-row should work well.
 
Yooper said:
If you want to post your recipe, we can all take a look and give you some advice!
Click to expand...

I appreciate all of the help so far!!

6.6 lbs. (3.0 kg) Briess light, unhopped, malt extract
1.7 lbs. (0.77 kg) light dry extract
22 oz. (0.62 kg) flaked oats
1.0 lb. (0.45 kg) chocolate malt (350 °L)
12 oz. (0.34 kg) roast barley malt (450 °L)
9.0 oz. (0.25 kg) debittered, black malt (530 °L)
7.0 oz. (0.19 kg) crystal malt (120 °L)
2.0 oz. (57 g) ground Sumatran coffee
2.0 oz. (57 g) ground Kona coffee
2.5 oz. (71 g) dark, bittersweet baker’s chocolate
1.5 oz. (43 g) unsweetened chocolate baking nibs
14.3 AAU Nugget pellet hops (60 min.) (1.1 oz./ 31 g of 13% alpha acid)
2.5 AAU Willamette pellet hops (30 min.) (0.5 oz./ 14 g of 5 % alpha acid)
2.5 AAU Willamette pellet hops (0 min.) (0.5 oz./ 14 g of 5 % alpha acid)
1⁄2 tsp. yeast nutrient (last 15 minutes)
1⁄2 tsp. Irish moss (last 15 minutes
White Labs WLP 001 (American Ale) or Wyeast 1056 (American Ale) yeast
 
Verio said:
I appreciate all of the help so far!!

6.6 lbs. (3.0 kg) Briess light, unhopped, malt extract
1.7 lbs. (0.77 kg) light dry extract
22 oz. (0.62 kg) flaked oats
1.0 lb. (0.45 kg) chocolate malt (350 °L)
12 oz. (0.34 kg) roast barley malt (450 °L)
9.0 oz. (0.25 kg) debittered, black malt (530 °L)
7.0 oz. (0.19 kg) crystal malt (120 °L)
2.0 oz. (57 g) ground Sumatran coffee
2.0 oz. (57 g) ground Kona coffee
2.5 oz. (71 g) dark, bittersweet baker’s chocolate
1.5 oz. (43 g) unsweetened chocolate baking nibs
14.3 AAU Nugget pellet hops (60 min.) (1.1 oz./ 31 g of 13% alpha acid)
2.5 AAU Willamette pellet hops (30 min.) (0.5 oz./ 14 g of 5 % alpha acid)
2.5 AAU Willamette pellet hops (0 min.) (0.5 oz./ 14 g of 5 % alpha acid)
1⁄2 tsp. yeast nutrient (last 15 minutes)
1⁄2 tsp. Irish moss (last 15 minutes
White Labs WLP 001 (American Ale) or Wyeast 1056 (American Ale) yeast
Click to expand...

I don't know anything about chocolate (hate the stuff) so someone else will have to give advice on that but it seems ok from what I know.

For that recipe, I'd simply remove the DME and replace it with 3.5 pounds two-row, or even with maris otter malt. Hopefully you have enough pots/bags to mash that amount of grain- a bit over 7 pounds.

I like to use 1.25 quarts of water per pound of grain, which means you'd use 8.75 quarts of water in the mash- and keep it at 153-155 degrees. When you're done mashing, you can lift out the grain bag(s) and either pour 170 degree water over it, to reach your boil volume, or stick it in another pot with a gallon of 170 degree water and dunk it lots and lots to "rinse" the sugars off. Combine those two volumes, and you should be good!
 
Yooper said:
I don't know anything about chocolate (hate the stuff) so someone else will have to give advice on that but it seems ok from what I know.

For that recipe, I'd simply remove the DME and replace it with 3.5 pounds two-row, or even with maris otter malt. Hopefully you have enough pots/bags to mash that amount of grain- a bit over 7 pounds.

I like to use 1.25 quarts of water per pound of grain, which means you'd use 8.75 quarts of water in the mash- and keep it at 153-155 degrees. When you're done mashing, you can lift out the grain bag(s) and either pour 170 degree water over it, to reach your boil volume, or stick it in another pot with a gallon of 170 degree water and dunk it lots and lots to "rinse" the sugars off. Combine those two volumes, and you should be good!
Click to expand...

That sounds great... and cheaper than the DME. So I guess I'm about to start my first adventure in Partial Mash. Thanks again!
 

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