NOOB: Extract vs Partial vs All Grain

Ok,

I just spent quite a bid of time reading various posts on these forums. I want to make sure I understand this correctly. Doing an extract requires no grains or hops. It is basically a pre-made kit that has everything you need kinda like a betty crocker cake mix right? A partial mash uses some extract but also adds grains and hops. This is kinda like using a Betty Crocker cake mix but making homemade icing right? Finally a full mash uses no extract at all correct? Basically making a cake from scratch right?

Obviously the partial mash and the all grain take longer than the extract. However, does the all grain take longer than the partial mash or do they basically require the same amount of time?

I also understand that the partial mash and the all grain give you more flexibility because basically you are only limited by your imagination. However, besides control, what are the other benefits? If I made three batches of a basic pale ale using an extract, a partial mash, and an all grain, would you notice a difference? In other words, does the partial mash and the all grain give you a better tasting and higher quality beer versus the extract or does it just give you more control? Also, is the all grain even higher quality than the partial mash?

I guess what I am asking is this. I am not knowledgeable enough and my pallet isn't good enough to create and discern the minor nuances of beers. I know what I like but I couldn't tell you why I like it or what it is in the beer that I like. So, is there a benefit to partial mash and all grain to a beer novice like myself?

Thanks!
Jeremy

An extract kit is a simplified version of the whole brewing process. You get malt extract, so you do not have to mash it yourself. You'll also get grains in a muslin bag and hops to add.

Since it is an extract, generally you will not do a full 5 gallon boil. I usually boil 2.5 gallons of water then add the rest when I am done.

You'll start off by soaking the grains, then bring the water to a boil and add the malt extract and hops (whenever the recipe calls for you to).

Since your a novice i would start with extract brewing, it gives you a good feel of the whole process. If you don't know what to brew, pick up a clone kit of a beer you like.

More options, more challenge, more chances to mess something up.

Think of it like spaghetti sauce. You can buy sauce in a jar, pour it out, and heat it. You can buy cans of tomatos and some fresh herbs, do a little more work, but not too too much, or there is Grandma crushing her own tomatos, fresh herbs, boiling the sauce down all day long kind of sauce.

Each has their advantages and disadvantages. Its just how much difficulty do you want to add. The more you go towards all grain, the more control you have over variances in color, flavor, bitterness, strength, etc...

Some people are perfectly fine with sauce out of a jar, and others like the craftsmanship of homemade stuff.

I think if you get away from the extract and move towards the grain, you can work on refining you pallate. For example you might say 'every time I brew using Cascade hops, I really like it' or 'I just don't like the way such and such grains taste'. When you are adding specific ingredients you get to know them a little better. You may end up liking the results Belgain yeasts get you, and it helps you refine a style. Bottom line is, yeah, its more work to step it up a notch, but it brings you more in touch with what you are doing, and it sort of forces you to learn about what you are using, and helps you discover what you like and what you don't.

Hope that helps.

Extract brewing comes in several flavors: pre-hopped kits, unhopped extract kits where the brewer adds hops, and extract with hops and steeping grains added by the brewer.

The difference between extract with steeping grains and a partial mash is that a partial mash uses base malts that are converted to sugars by the mashing process.

I would suggest brewing a few extract kits to gain familiarity with the brewing process in general. Some of the key concepts are done in an extract kit and it will allow you to get "a flow" with your process. Keep in mind you can always "tweak" extract kits by adding additional hops, flavors, or dry hopping (adding blueberries or chocolate chips to pancake mix.)

Partial mash kits are a great way to get used to steeping grains and adjusting temperatures for that process. They typically do not take nearly as long as a complete AG process.

Your pallet will begin to identify flavors more as you continue brewing. I would suggest tasting throughout the process to see which flavors dominate. As Iron City said....process of elimination and the desire to duplicate things you like in a beer you make will drive you to pick out the what now seem like subtleties in the flavor.

I would say that AG can have a fresher taste than extract....I use the analogy of fresh veggies to those found in the can. An extract goes thru a process and whether its a DME (dry) or LME (liquid) it has to live in a can and be shipped while mashing releases sugar that are converted much more quickly.

The great news is no matter which way you go or how ever you mess something up you typically end up with beer. I haven't dumped a mess up yet!

For me it all came down to how much control and how complex you want to make the brewing process. The amount of control is inversely proportional to how complex it is.

Pre-hopped extract - as simple as you can get, but you also have very little control over what goes in your beer. The only control you have is probably during fermentation.

Un-hopped extract - a little more complex as you are actually doing a long boil, but you get the added control of choosing your own hops.

Un-hopped extract w/ steeping grains - a little more complex yet, but now you can add a little extra flavor via crystal and roasted malts as well as choose your own hops.

Partial mash - Now you're moving away from extract and have more control over your grain bill as opposed to having the extract manufacturer determine it for you. It is quite a bit more complex than pure extract, though, as you now have to build an MLT, mash, vorlauf, sparge, etc. More control can be gained by using different mash methods (single infusion, decoction, etc.) and sparge methods (batch, fly).

All grain - You have total control. You can determine the body of your beer by how you mash. You have greater control over the color of the beer. But it is as complex as brewing can get. Water chemistry matters more. You have to deal with all the things partial mashing deals with except bigger. Partial boils just aren't done due to the amount of sparging necessary.

I think those are really the main points. Taste is arguable, but I think everyone will agree that a good extract brewer will make better tasting beer than a poor all grain brewer. I think, really, what you want to do depends on how deep into the hobby you want to get. I eventually went all grain simply because I love brewing so much and wanted to learn as much as possible. However, many people enjoy it more as a passing hobby and stick with some form of extract brewing. Find out what suits you best and stick with it!

I would actually stay away from the pre-hopped kits. Some of them probably aren't bad per se, but let's face it, at that point you're looking at essentially dumping a pack of yeast into sugar water. You might as well be buying beer at the store at that point.

If you want to brew, start with the extract kits that come with hops separately. Start learning the science behind what you're doing.

I do partial mashes when I'm feeling lazy and don't want to bother with a full all grain recipe. I think I've only done 2 of those though. Turned out decent however.

I know people say go from partial mash to all grain, but really you can skip the partial mash. The three really important things you need to go all grain is a mash/tun lauter (the cooler with a sieve option that you can build yourself serves perfectly well), a second pot to boil your mash water in, and a thermometer. It helps to know what the f*ck you're doing, but if you read up some you realize you're just heating grain and water up to certain temperatures for certain amounts of time. Software out there takes all the guesswork and math out of it and makes it stupid, stupid easy.

Thanks guys! I appreciate all the info. It makes a lot more sense now.

Jeremy

You got to try extract a few times to find out how expensive and awful it is and to have a good laugh. The good tasting kits cost as much as domestic beer so what's the sense. Then you will have and appreciation that you made the right choice to go all grain.

A good Extract kit costs $40 for 5 gallons. When brewing all grain I buy grain and hops in bulk. I've learned to farm liquid yeasts so the second use cost is free. I spend $8 in 2 row grain for 7 pounds- About $4 for two ounces of hops- farmed yeast is free- so the bill for a 5 gallon brew is $12 for some of the best tasting and unique beer. For a bolder taste a couple more pounds of grain and a few more ounces of hops is just dollars. Some grains and hops cost more.

But, my brew day is 4-5 hours. An extract brew day is easily half the time. Mashing in, Wort runnings, and the boil can be up to 3-4 hours alone for an experienced brewer. The work isn't constant, although you have to be around to tend to it. Time does most of the work.

dvdfnzwbr said:

You got to try extract a few times to find out how expensive and awful it is and to have a good laugh. The good tasting kits cost as much as domestic beer so what's the sense. Then you will have and appreciation that you made the right choice to go all grain.

A good Extract kit costs $40 for 5 gallons. When brewing all grain I buy grain and hops in bulk. I've learned to farm liquid yeasts so the second use cost is free. I spend $8 in 2 row grain for 7 pounds- About $4 for two ounces of hops- farmed yeast is free- so the bill for a 5 gallon brew is $12 for some of the best tasting and unique beer. For a bolder taste a couple more pounds of grain and a few more ounces of hops is just dollars. Some grains and hops cost more.

But, my brew day is 4-5 hours. An extract brew day is easily half the time. Mashing in, Wort runnings, and the boil can be up to 3-4 hours alone for an experienced brewer. The work isn't constant, although you have to be around to tend to it. Time does most of the work.

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Sweet post! Thanks for the info....very helpful. Speaking of extract kits, what are some of the better brands of extract kits that I should use?

Thanks!
Jeremy

I had success and beer that was drinkable and that I was proud and willing to offer to friends and relatives with Brewers Best boxed complete Kits. Look for one with liquid extract, seeping grains, and hops additions. $40 for 5 gallons

I once tried an organic boxed kit made from dry malt extract (powder form of extract), seeping grains, and hops additions. Which I didn't like as much. $32 for 5 gallons

The cheap can only kits from Muntons with pre hopped extract and yeast under the lid were a big disappointment for me. $15-20 for 5 gallons If I remeber right you also had to buy 2 pounds of corn sugar, or dry malt extract to add to this kit. These are so cheap that the yeast given with these kits made the beer smell and taste more like wine. Some people swear by them though. ?????????

I make my own beer because its a rewarding experience, but mostly to save money because import and craft beer at the grocery store is too expensive for me to drink liberally on a daily basis. I now sample imported lagers from time to time and sometimes think that if I made these I would not serve them to my friends. lol

If Brewers Best Kits and higher end kits could make their kits for $20 I would be an extract brewer. But once I figured out that all grain is cost effective I had to go that route and it has been the best decision in my beer drinking life. They smell and stink like beer and have that burning malt/ bread after taste which is what I love most about beer. I now am trying to grow hops and am thinking about malting my own barley from an animal feed store to bring the cost down even more.

Look to youtube for video on All grain brewing. Yeast propagation, streaking yeast, and making a yeast starter. These boards also help fill in the gaps .

Check out this free online book: http://www.howtobrew.com/intro.html

Northern Brewer kits usually get rave reviews, as do Austin Homebrew Supply. Brewmasters Warehouse website has a feature where you can build a kit to your liking...

all reputable sources...

I think it is a bit silly to say that all grain is better than extract, or one way is the "right" way.

Beer taste may be affected by that choice, but I feel it is much more dependent on the brewer and ingredients. A poor quality brewer will produce poor beer regardless of if he brews extract or all grain. Likewise, poor quality ingredients will produce poor beer. Often, the pre-hopped extract kits use poor quality ingredients. There are a lot of high quality extracts out there, though, and great beer can be made using extract in the hands of a great brewer.

So, which way is "right" depends on the brewer. If you don't have much time or energy to put into brewing, but you enjoy doing it from time to time, extract is probably right for you. Such a brewer might not care that extract batches cost quite a bit more than all grain batches because their time is worth more to them. If you are really into it and want to invest more time, go all grain.

I agree with you all. I went right into AG after one PM batch. Of course I read just about everything I could find about AG.

It really does boil down to individual tastes! Cost, effort, knowledge, technique, those are all just avenues to achieve the taste we want or like.

I like AG but would just as happy with the most basic extract kit when it comes time to drinking the beer cause I like beer! I love good beer!!

Start with what you are comfortable with and take it as far as you want from there!

Keep on brewing

dvdfnzwbr said:

When brewing all grain I buy grain and hops in bulk. I've learned to farm liquid yeasts so the second use cost is free. I spend $8 in 2 row grain for 7 pounds- About $4 for two ounces of hops- farmed yeast is free- so the bill for a 5 gallon brew is $12 for some of the best tasting and unique beer.

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I get my hops for about half what he's paying and I could brew that same beer but with extract for about 16.00 so it's really only a 4.00 difference. These debates about what's better and how much cheaper AG is always turn into a flame war.

AG is cheaper but it's not that much cheaper. The only savings is in the grain. All the other ingredients cost the same. And the beer quality from extract can be just as good or even better then that from AG.

It's up to you to decide what is more fun or a better way to brew. Extract can make fantastic beer. AG does not make better beer. Better brewers make better beer.

Anyone flying the extract flag must have a hand in selling it. I would pick out an extract beer in any blind taste test. Kool Aid Kits don't come close to brewing with fresh cracked grains and liquid yeast.

dvdfnzwbr said:

Anyone flying the extract flag must have a hand in selling it.

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That's a bit of an obtuse statement. There are a lot of people who simply don't have the time or equipment to bother with AG brewing. In some cases it might be doing extract/PM or nothing.

One method is not inherently better than the other, only better suited for different circumstances. The quality of a beer ultimately comes down to quality ingredients and the process used. There are extract brewers who win medals and there are AG brewers who create a new and improved version of satan's anus.

So just because more experienced brewers tend to move on to AG brewing that doesn't automatically discount extract entirely. It may not be what you like doing, but that's fine. There are plenty of reasons that others do.

I think it is a bit silly to say that all grain is better than extract, or one way is the "right" way.

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I would love to argue with you, but you're right so I won't.

"Right" is the way you make beer that you enjoy. On one hand, brewing with extracts is easier and quicker. On the other hand, AG is cheaper, and offers a lot more flexibility.

Me, I recommend to beginners to go AG as soon as they know they are serious and will make beer consistently for the foreseeable future. Why? Because it's not hard and you have complete control over what you get. And oh yeah, it is cheaper. Homebrew somehow tastes even better when the quality is high and the price is lower.

On the other hand, if you want to make your beer relatively quickly and you don't mind the additional expense, then extracts are the way to go.

I'm quite happy doing PM brews. It gives me all the flexability that AG does, but I don't have to deal with the volumes.

TheFlatline said:

I know people say go from partial mash to all grain, but really you can skip the partial mash.

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Agree.


The only difference between Partial mash and AG is you can have a smaller mash tun with Partial Mash.

It doesn't take any less time, and it isn't any easier.

dvdfnzwbr said:

Anyone flying the extract flag must have a hand in selling it. I would pick out an extract beer in any blind taste test. Kool Aid Kits don't come close to brewing with fresh cracked grains and liquid yeast.

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I guess the judges for this beer must have had been extract dealers,
this beer won 3rd place at the Minn state fair in 2004 despite the
use of extract:
http://beer.tzo.com/beer/asp/report_recipe.asp?RegNum=1120&DB=beer&VersionNum=20020916

Good site for recipes:
http://beerdujour.com/AwardWinningRecipes.htm

http://beer.tzo.com/beer/asp/recipe.asp (this is where the
above recipe came from).

Quality beer imo comes from the proper yeast, proper fermentation
temps and conditioning/lagering temps. My own American pale ale
uses 2 cans of light liquid malt extract and 1 pound of light dme,
and I get infinite variety by varying the hops. Suits my taste
anyway.

Ray

Extract, partial mash, all-grain, batch sparge, fly sparge, decoction, whatever you do just read all you can and ask questions and then do it!

If the beer comes out great then that is a plus and if it doesn't, then troubleshoot it and try again!

Just keep brewing!

dvdfnzwbr said:

I would pick out an extract beer in any blind taste test.

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I'll take that challenge.

ChshreCat said:

I'm quite happy doing PM brews. It gives me all the flexability that AG does, but I don't have to deal with the volumes.

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This I will have to disagree with on technical ground.

When you use extracts you are ceding control of the body of your wort to whoever makes your extract. If a given extract has been mashed at say 150°, it would be by definition different than a beer mashed at a higher temperature. That's a simple decision to make for an AG brewer but one that an extract brewer can't make, because it's too late. For example, high temperature saccharification, typically at 155°F, makes for less fermentable wort and a sweet finish. That's good for an Oktoberfest, for example.

Additionally decoction mashing and other techniques that are simply impossible to replicate with extracts.

So yes, you can control a lot of the flavor by steeping grains. But no, that will not allow you to control its body.

ForRealBeer said:

When you use extracts you are ceding control of the body of your wort to whoever makes your extract. If a given extract has been mashed at say 150°, it would be by definition different than a beer mashed at a higher temperature. That's a simple decision to make for an AG brewer but one that an extract brewer can't make, because it's too late.

So yes, you can control a lot of the flavor by steeping grains. But no, that will not allow you to control its body.

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Thats not really true though. Different brands of extract have different fermentability. Now, figuring out how fermentable each one is would be a lot of work.

Synovia said:

Thats not really true though. Different brands of extract have different fermentability. Now, figuring out how fermentable each one is would be a lot of work.

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I guess you could also add malto-dextrin, etc., but I think Mr. Wizard hits my point home far better than I can here. And he is right about there are people who are snobs about it all, which is something I definitely am not. If you like extracts, more power to you and pour me a pint too.

ForRealBeer said:

This I will have to disagree with on technical ground.

When you use extracts you are ceding control of the body of your wort to whoever makes your extract. If a given extract has been mashed at say 150°, it would be by definition different than a beer mashed at a higher temperature. That's a simple decision to make for an AG brewer but one that an extract brewer can't make, because it's too late. For example, high temperature saccharification, typically at 155°F, makes for less fermentable wort and a sweet finish. That's good for an Oktoberfest, for example.

Additionally decoction mashing and other techniques that are simply impossible to replicate with extracts.

So yes, you can control a lot of the flavor by steeping grains. But no, that will not allow you to control its body.

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The majority of my wort comes from my grain, not my extract. My PM technique is basically to brew a 3.5 gallon (give or take) all grain batch with extra hops (calculated, not just guessed at of course) and then add in a few lbs of LME at the end of boil so I can top it up to 5 gallons.

Sure, may be that I just haven't came across a style I can't brew this way, but they've came out great so far. A PM doesn't have to be 2lbs of grain and a big tub of extract. You can shoot for as much grain as you can boil the runnings from and then just use extract to boost the volume.

I can confidently say that it makes great beer. Yeah, once I can get set up for it, I'll move on to all grain to get the cost savings but I can't see it making my beer taste any better than it does now.

ChshreCat said:

I can confidently say that it makes great beer. Yeah, once I can get set up for it, I'll move on to all grain to get the cost savings but I can't see it making my beer taste any better than it does now.

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Like I said above - if it works for you, then it works period. And pour me a pint while you're up.

Seriously, I am not a snob about it. I have my opinions, but YMMV and I have been proven wrong before. (As in every time I say a thing to my wife.)

FRB: If you're ever in the neighborhood, you're more than welcome.

I think the most important thing about extract is getting the right extract. Good fresh extract beats the dusty can sitting on the back shelf of your LHBS anyday. I get mine in bulk at my shop. They get it straight from the company that makes it and they go through a barrel of it every couple days so it never sits around.

ChshreCat said:

I think the most important thing about extract is getting the right extract. Good fresh extract beats the dusty can sitting on the back shelf of your LHBS anyday

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Agree. I don't think some people realize how old the canned LME is at most shops. If its a small shop, its probably years old.

rayg said:

I guess the judges for this beer must have had been extract dealers,
this beer won 3rd place at the Minn state fair in 2004 despite the
use of extract:
http://beer.tzo.com/beer/asp/report_recipe.asp?RegNum=1120&DB=beer&VersionNum=20020916

Good site for recipes:
http://beerdujour.com/AwardWinningRecipes.htm

http://beer.tzo.com/beer/asp/recipe.asp (this is where the
above recipe came from).

Quality beer imo comes from the proper yeast, proper fermentation
temps and conditioning/lagering temps. My own American pale ale
uses 2 cans of light liquid malt extract and 1 pound of light dme,
and I get infinite variety by varying the hops. Suits my taste
anyway.

Ray

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You can type all day until your fingers bleed. Get GOD himself to agree with you. But I will tell you NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY will ever convince me that a refined, canned, commercial food product is equal or better than a fresh ingredient. You forgot to mention the entry fees that are taken at beer contests for every beer style entered. They are happy to fill your ego in exchange for your CASH! Give me money and I will tell you that the swill created from a can and water tastes good and that your such a brewing genius for figuring out how to use a can opener. You really think they would refuse cash from the Kool aid crafters. Just remember to come back next year because we have plenty of ribbons and our local economy relies on your Weekend stay. Oh, and tell your friends to enter to.

Wow, someone's touchy about their opinion of other people's beer.

LOL

dvdfnzwbr said:

You can type all day until your fingers bleed. Get GOD himself to agree with you. But I will tell you NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY will ever convince me that a refined, canned, commercial food product is equal or better than a fresh ingredient. You forgot to mention the entry fees that are taken at beer contests for every beer style entered. They are happy to fill your ego in exchange for your CASH! Give me money and I will tell you that the swill created from a can and water tastes good and that your such a brewing genius for figuring out how to use a can opener. You really think they would refuse cash from the Kool aid crafters. Just remember to come back next year because we have plenty of ribbons and our local economy relies on your Weekend stay. Oh, and tell your friends to enter to.

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Since when does all extract come in a can? I think even most extract fans would be the first to agree that the canned extract is about the bottom of the barrel in terms of quality, so of course you can make a valid argument with that.

But in all honesty, it's attitudes and comments like yours that have no place in the home brewing community. It goes against everything this hobby is about. Why belittle people who use a method that's different than yours? Why on Earth would someone who loves this hobby want to trash talk the perfectly acceptable methods that others use, and probably most "experts" even used when they got started with the hobby?

If anything, we should be embracing the fact that people are interested enough to get started in the hobby even if it is with a Mr. Beer kit and then work with them to improve their techniques and knowledge so they are comfortable to take on more advanced techniques and challenges. But no, people like you would rather talk **** and discourage so many people who are simply trying to find a hobby that gives them a break from the daily grind and create something they enjoy and are proud of.

marubozo said:

Since when does all extract come in a can? I think even most extract fans would be the first to agree that the canned extract is about the bottom of the barrel in terms of quality, so of course you can make a valid argument with that.

But in all honesty, it's attitudes and comments like yours that have no place in the home brewing community. It goes against everything this hobby is about. Why belittle people who use a method that's different than yours? Why on Earth would someone who loves this hobby want to trash talk the perfectly acceptable methods that others use, and probably most "experts" even used when they got started with the hobby?

If anything, we should be embracing the fact that people are interested enough to get started in the hobby even if it is with a Mr. Beer kit and then work with them to improve their techniques and knowledge so they are comfortable to take on more advanced techniques and challenges. But no, people like you would rather talk **** and discourage so many people who are simply trying to find a hobby that gives them a break from the daily grind and create something they enjoy and are proud of.

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Lies and Disney Land Wishes and Dreams like yours have no room in the brewing community. Conformist! He commented to my post and I was commenting to his. Let the Court of Popular Opinion be the Judge.

Usa! Usa! Usa!

ChshreCat said:

Wow, someone's touchy about their opinion of other people's beer.

LOL

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This level of anger often stems from other, deep seated issues...I'm seeing it every day!

-Brought to you by the Court of Popular Opinion

Can anyone say EAC?

Please don't feed the troll... unless you feed him canned extract!

dvdfnzwbr said:

blah blah blah blah blah blah. now that i'm through giving you all my amateur opinion.. i admit i don't know what the phuck i am talking about!

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the authority speaks now? every grain "seeps" maybe you meant "steeping". restatement drivel doesn't cut-the-mustard. so you make beer with "animal feed" do you? how "great" does it turn out? BAD TROLL!


op: you have the idea. i recommend many extract-only batches to get the concept of sanitation, fermentation, bottling, etc down. then i would try a few partial mash to get a feel for temp control and handling of grains. then i would, if the equipment can be gotten, do some method of all grain, depending of course the equipment you have access to.

dvdfnzwbr said:

You can type all day until your fingers bleed. Get GOD himself to agree with you. But I will tell you NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY will ever convince me that a refined, canned, commercial food product is equal or better than a fresh ingredient.

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So I take it you don't package your own homebrew then, you just
leave it in a tray or something?