Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

One of the challenges of stopping the cider with some residual apple sweetness is knowing when to start checking the SG.

On this last batch, I tried out a new method – using some brew balls to monitor the progress. There is a company that makes these for beer, and they were good enough to make me a custom set for cider. So far, they seem pretty useful for cider and I’ll probably be getting some more of these for the next round of batches. Here’s the website: http://www.brewballstore.com/



The basic idea is that each of the balls drops at a certain SG, so you can tell how your ferment is progressing without repeatedly opening your carboy to take SG samples. I’m not certain how useful this is for beer, but for cider it is really handy, because you can minimize the number of times that you need to take hydro samples to determine the optimal point to crash.

Say you are planning to crash around 1.010, and want to check the taste around 1.015 to make sure the sugar/acid balance is about right – you can just sanitize the 1.010 and 1.015 balls, put them in the primary when you pitch the yeast and then don’t worry about taking hydro samples until the 1.015 ball drops.

For this round of batches, I expected the S04 batch with no sugar to be ready to crash first. I figured I’d crash around 1.008 and I put four balls in the primary to measure the progress: 1.020, 1.012, 1.010 and 1.008.

The 1.020 ball dropped on Thursday, seven days after the pitch, so that gave me a sense of how fast the ferment was moving and about when I would need to plan on crashing. Normally, I wouldn’t take a hydro sample at this point but I did just to double check the accuracy – it was spot on. The 1.012 ball dropped yesterday and I tasted again. The finish was a little more sour than I expected so I decided to crash at 1.010 instead of 1.008, which I did today. So I only took two samples prior to the crash and really only needed to take one.

I put the 1.025 and 1.015 balls in the natural fermenting batch so I could monitor that one as well. The 1.025 ball hasn’t dropped yet, which is a good sign for a natural ferment, so I havent taken any samples yet. When the 1.025 ball drops, I’ll take a reading and decide if I still should let it go to 1.015, or I might toss the 1.020 or 1.012 balls in, based on the taste of the sample at 1.025. If all goes well, I should only need to take one or two hydro samples from the natural yeast batch to nail the optimal crash point.

These things arent quite the perfect solution – they don’t yet have a stock set for common cider values, and I’d rather have numbers for the SGs, rather than colors that I have to remember. Also, if the cider kicks up some krausen and gunks up the top of the carboy, it can be tough to see the balls. But they can definitely reduce the number of times you need to take hydro samples in order to nail a good crash point, which means less cleaning and less air getting to the cider. I’m hoping these folks will continue to improve them for cider use.

Wheat yeast test batches are on the left hand side. The ones on the right are four of the six that I saved from the DME batches. The other nine gallons from the DME test batches I gave away for making vinegar, which should come out great using the malted cider as a base.



The DME wasn’t really what I was looking for in a cider, but its pretty good in its own right. Its more like a slightly weak bodied brown ale with an apple finish. I could see a keg of this being pretty popular at a party. If I had used a little more than 6oz of DME per gallon and less tart apples, I think it would have been better.

I saved the light malt and wheat malt with 3068 yeast, dark malt and light malt with US05, dark malt with nottingham and light malt with S04. Of these, I prefer the US05 batches. These were all decent tasting and fairly distinctive. The other nine batches were all pretty much lesser imitations of these six. It will be interesting to see what other folks think of them at the next couple of tastings.

CvilleKevin said:

That does seem like a slow ferment for 66 degrees. Did you let your yeast rehydrate slowly? Check out bottom of page 15. Best practice would be to use a starter. I skip this step to save time, but you still have to be careful with the pitch. I usually pitch in my kitchen, which is a warm room, so it is about 70, then move the jugs to the basement about an hour later.

The juice should still be fine. I've had natural ferments take up to a week to get started. Next time you take a sg reading, you could take a taste just to make sure. You should be seeing pretty good activity on all of these if you pitched more yeast last night. When they get going fairly strong, you can drop the temps again.

When you said that the one with S04 filled the airlock three times, do you mean that it pushed foam up into the airlock? Did that batch also drop only 0.004? Once an S04 ferment gets going, it likes nice low temps, so that would be strange. I would expect something like 4-8 points a day for several days once it gets to the point of foaming the airlock. Did it ever get real cold in the past 4 days?

Click to expand...

I think I pitched too cold and no I did not rehydrate the yeast I just dumped it in and let it sit for a few minutes and then shook it. I have a feeling that the juice was still too cold coming from the fridge a few hours earlier and the yeast never had a chance to get going. However now that I pitched more and raised the temp all are bubbling. I haven’t had a chance to check the gravity this weekend but I will tonight and hopefully it will be lower! Before I turned on the room heater the lowest it got was about 64. My basement is 3/4 below grade so the temp stays pretty constant all year.

CvilleKevin, are those 750ml flip-tops, or 1L?

Where is your source?

They are one liter source is: http://www.ebottles.com/showbottles.asp?familyid=1314

CvilleKevin said:

They are one liter source is: http://www.ebottles.com/showbottles.asp?familyid=1314

Click to expand...

Awesome. Thanks!

love the brew balls. I'd be the company is pretty much willing to make any density ball you ask, might have to check into this myself. . . I can see how these are cool to fool around with and are a lot easier but, for example, exactly how many sets would you need kevin? That is one spot the hydrometer has them beat, you only need one at any given time. I also love those bottles. What is your experience with them holding carbonation?

Yes, they will make custom densities on request.

How many sets I would need is a good question. Probably not too many. You can actually tell a lot with just one ball.

Its hard to predict the best sg to crash a given batch, because it is dependent on acid balance, the yeast profile, etc which is a little different each time. But you generally know about when you want to start checking. For example, I generally crash an S04 batch at 1.010 or lower, so there is no point in checking the SG until I get to 1.012 or so. Having the 1.020 ball is nice for measuring the time between 1.020 and 1.012 and thus predicting the time to get to a given final SG, but it would be possible to get away without it because S04 is fairly predictable. I've currently got one set that I am using to monitor two batches. I probably could have monitored three batches at a time with a more judicious set of balls, and I will reuse the ones that I took out of the batch I crashed yesterday.

These definately dont replace the hydrometer, but if they can cut the hydrometer use in half, and I can get away with 1-3 balls to monitor each batch, they will be worth it. It will still take some experimenting to figure out the best values and it would be a lot easier if they had numbers when managing 8 batches at once.

The bottles hold carb fine, although out of the box they are not quite as tight as a grolsh and after a few years of use, some of the swing tops lose their tightness. Every now and then you'll have to take one of the swing tops off and bend it with a pair of pliers and then it will be good for several more seasons. If you take these on a plane, definitely make sure all the tops are tight and bend any that feel even a little bit loose.

Check again and dead! Another .002 drop and stop. Then I read the fine print on the label and they have two preservatives listed! So I assume that is the issue and this juice will not work. Real bummer man $40 down the hole. I guess my only option would be to drive all to the fresh pressed orchard.

@thatguy--Before I threw away $40 worth of juice I think I'd make up a healthy starter with an aggressive yeast, get my temp just right and re-pitch. A little bit of time & money for some more yeast and a chance at rescuing the batch versus tossing the whole thing seems like worth a try. Most preservatives in AJ aren't poisons, just growth inhibitors. If you can get your yeast all worked up into a feeding frenzy you might be able to plow on through.

jcobbs said:

@thatguy--Before I threw away $40 worth of juice I think I'd make up a healthy starter with an aggressive yeast, get my temp just right and re-pitch. A little bit of time & money for some more yeast and a chance at rescuing the batch versus tossing the whole thing seems like worth a try. Most preservatives in AJ aren't poisons, just growth inhibitors. If you can get your yeast all worked up into a feeding frenzy you might be able to plow on through.

Click to expand...

You know I just got 4 more kegs in yesterday and I was thinking about moving all of the juice out of the 1 gallon jugs into a keg and pitching a butt load of yeast last night but I just drank my sorrows away! At this point I am ready to try anything. The samples still taste fine to me so its worth a shot. I also have three beers that are ready to rack I wonder if I should just pull some yeast from them and pitch. So pitch more and more yeast to the 1 gallon jugs. Or mix all the juice together and pitch all of the 5 different yeast mixed together. Or ix all the juice and get one kind of yeast and pitch again. And the final option would be to pull the yeast cake off a beer and pitch that!. So many options!

I've been able to get juice with preservatives to ferment out on several occasions, but it never tasted very good. Probably because since the yeast were not reproducing, the ones that were left at the end of the ferment were old and probably demented as well

I'd go ahead and mix all the juice together because at this point you are no longer trying to find the optimal recipe for your juice - just trying to salvage the juice - and it will be easier to manage in one carboy.

Since you have beers that are ready to rack, I would definitely use those cakes, unless you were planning to use them for something else. They will be strong and healthy. Rack one one of those beers into the keg now, pour the ciders into that carboy and use the yeast cake to give your cider a kick. When that batch starts to die off, rack the next beer and add that cake to the cider. If you need to, you can do the same with the third keg. You will probably want to stop the cider fermentation on the sweet side to mask any weird flavors that you might pick up from the preservatives, but hopefully you can end up with something that is drinkable

Here is a link for some orchards in your state. Hopefully you can find one that is closer and get some good juice for your next batch
http://www.allaboutapples.com/orchard/il.htm

If I've lost too much of the apple flavor during fermenting can I add some sweet cider to the carboy after racking and let is age for a while? Will it keep alright when bottled?

Thanks!

phawley said:

If I've lost too much of the apple flavor during fermenting can I add some sweet cider to the carboy after racking and let is age for a while? Will it keep alright when bottled?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

If you can find a way to stop the wild yeast in the sweet cider from fermenting then that will make it sweeter for sure. I know k sorbate is one way to kill off wild yeast/bacteria.

Sorbate is effective, but it leaves a very discernible taste. Some people are OK with the taste. Most not. I'm not crazy about it. Also you must use k-meta before the sorbate or it will really taste bad.

Cold crashing can be used remove the yeast if you use an ale or wheat yeast. Search on cold crash, or read the whole sticky for more info on cold crashing.

You can backsweeten with sweet cider or concentrate, sugar, agave, etc. In my experience, the best sweetener to use depends on how your batch turned out. Pour some 4oz glasses and experiment to find out what is the best sweetener for the batch you have. However - you must either remove the yeast with cold crashing or stop it with k-meta/sorbate or else your cider will not be stable

The key to getting really good cider is not to let all of the natural apple sugar ferment out in the first place. Backsweetening is OK to salvage a failed batch so that it is drinkable, but it wont be as good as if you had stopped the cider when it still has the natural apple sugar

For the first batch I used Coopers - not sure what kind of yeast that is.

Sweet cider I'm using has run through UV so there is no concern for wild yeast.

Are their any ways to maintain natural apple sweetness and raise the alcohol above 6%? Add extra juice from very sugary apples?

BTW - thanks for your help. Not many people here in Cincinnati are interested in cider - despite our Johnny Appleseed history - and I've had a heck of a time getting my questions answered.

you could always try it and let us know how it turns out. I'll let cvillekevin handle your apple sweetness plus ABV quesion but you can search this very thread and find some info on what type of sugars work well to maintain the apple taste. IMHO people, myself included, worry about ABV way too much. In theory if it tastes good it'll go down faster, resulting in about the same level of drunkness. I guess I'd rather have an outstanding tasting cider at 4% ABV than a so-so tasting cider at 6%. anyone second that?

Thanks, rjschroed! I'm not looking to get stupid quick. I thought I had read somewhere that ciders under about 5.5% or so did not age well. About 6 months or so. I'm hoping to save some for a year from now or so and see how the aging changes the flavor. I've got a batch at about 5% right now and if I'm wrong on the aging thing I'll go ahead and rack it right now because the taste is about where I want it.

Do you happen to know much about the requirements in longer aging?

I'm not sure what you meant by get stupid quick but I wanted to clarify that I wasn't implying that you were stupid. This brewing thing we do requires constant experimentation or else we wouldn't ever find new things or what we like best. Don't know much about aging cider under 5.5% but I think I remember reading somewhere that you were alright for at least 6-9 months.

Some mills sweat the apples to increase the sugar content. You can also freeze concentrate before you ferment it.

Higher ABV cider does seem to keep a little better in my experience, but thats not really an issue until late next spring. 4 percent will keep fine til then.

The easiest way to bump the ABV and not affect the apple taste is to use a small bit of sugar. I've found that a mix of 2/3 turbinado to 1/3 dextros is the closest to the original apple sugar taste. You will lose a bit the apple taste, but as long as you dont use more than a couple pounds of sugar in 6 gallons and dont go over 1.070 regardless (if you are starting with sweet apples, cut back on the sugar) it will be hard to notice unless you have two batches side by side.

I'm pretty sure that if you dont add real heavy sugars, the yeast will go to work on the added stuff and not go after the longer chain apple sugars until the very end of the ferment. The season still has a ways to go so you could do one with just the apple sugar now to drink on and then make another one with the sg bumped up a little bit for keeping.

rjschroed said:

I'm not sure what you meant by get stupid quick but I wanted to clarify that I wasn't implying that you were stupid. This brewing thing we do requires constant experimentation or else we wouldn't ever find new things or what we like best. Don't know much about aging cider under 5.5% but I think I remember reading somewhere that you were alright for at least 6-9 months.

Click to expand...

No offense taken. What I meant was that I was not looking to increase the ABV in order to get drunk/tipsy/"stupid" with the least amount of drinking possible. I'm sure there are a number of people that try home brewing with those intentions and you've probably read their questions on this site. I assumed you thought I was one of them and that is why I responded that I'm not trying to "get stupid quickly."

I enjoy a good cider and am hear to learn the craft and enjoy the results. Unfortunately, I have few funds right now so I am trying to understand as much as possible before I do something that may severely alter my cider.

I appreciate your quick responses to my questions.

CvilleKevin said:

One of the challenges of stopping the cider with some residual apple sweetness is knowing when to start checking the SG.

On this last batch, I tried out a new method – using some brew balls to monitor the progress. There is a company that makes these for beer, and they were good enough to make me a custom set for cider. So far, they seem pretty useful for cider and I’ll probably be getting some more of these for the next round of batches. Here’s the website: http://www.brewballstore.com/

Click to expand...

Hi CvilleKevin,
I would like to thank you for starting this thread, I used your methods to do my own 5 gallon/5 yeasts test with some good results. Thank you!

On the subject of brew balls I emailed Tom at the Brew Ball site and told him your comments on numbering them as well as getting my own custom set and he said
"We are looking at future sets with numbers laser-engraved."

I can see where the numbers would be much better then the colored dots if you get a lot of custom balls.

Thanks again for all the great information in this thread!

Mcduff

phawley said:

No offense taken. What I meant was that I was not looking to increase the ABV in order to get drunk/tipsy/"stupid" with the least amount of drinking possible. I'm sure there are a number of people that try home brewing with those intentions and you've probably read their questions on this site. I assumed you thought I was one of them and that is why I responded that I'm not trying to "get stupid quickly."

I enjoy a good cider and am hear to learn the craft and enjoy the results. Unfortunately, I have few funds right now so I am trying to understand as much as possible before I do something that may severely alter my cider.

I appreciate your quick responses to my questions.

Click to expand...

I assume nothing and after your explanation, your comments make perfect sense but I wanted to make sure things were clear before something stupid happen. I don't need to make any enemies here and have no reason to treat anyone on any online forum like an idiot. There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers. reading this sticky on this forum is a great start on making some great cider. Have you ever homebrewed before?

Not sure if this is the best place to ask but instead of yet another thread it seems like a good idea to ask here...

Got 3 gallons of pure (no preservitives, non pasturized etc) apple cider and added 3 campden pills, let it sit over night, added 1 lb of light brown sugar (after boiling for 15 mins), sprinkled some Star wine yeast and it's bubbling away in the fermenter. At this point I am not sure what to expect

-How long will it take to ferment?
-How long should I let it age in the bottle?
-Should I carbonate? (and how would I properly do it, priming sugar just like ales?)
-How long is this type of bottled cider good for, typically?
-Is that stinky odor normal while fermenting?
-anything else I should expect?

CvilleKevin, i can't thank you enough. I am very new to homebrewing and I went out to Nelson County this weekend and picked up 6 gallons of cider from Dickie Bros (UV pas., no preserv.) with not much more of a plan then throw it in a carboy and pitch some champagne yeast. After reading I have changed that more than a bit.

I am planning on using the 2/3 turbinado to 1/3 dextros split to up it to 1.060 and pitch with either Coopers or US05 after I re-taste the cider to see if I think it's got enough bite as is. You have also convinced me to get the rest of the stuff I need to keg, as i know the girlfriend will want it bubbly even if i don't.

A few questions though. Has anyone played with adding spices during fermentation? Like mulling but not after it's done? How about mulling after the fact, I'm sure you couldn't really go wrong with that.

Also, I'm in Richmond, any recommendations for cider supply, the closer the better. I went to Nelson County simply because i know the area from camping at crabtree, and it's not that bad a drive. I plan on getting at least one more batch going this year, so anyone putting out a particularly good cider right now?

There is no way to guess how much money, time, and horrible cider you have saved me, kudos!

There's lots of recipes with spices - if you search the main forum, you'll find a ton of them. I havent done anything with spices yet

I've been getting my cider from Showalter's, which is near Harrisonburg. They make great cider. They're even further from you than Dickies, but they sell a lot in Central VA - you might want to check with their Cville distributer and see if there is a place that is closer to you. The distributer is: http://www.cavalierproduce.com/

I'll be going to the press again in mid-Nov and will post something on HBT before I go. I usually pick up for a half dozen friends when I go.

If you're thinking about a kegging setup and up for a trip to the DC area, you might want to check out this craiglist ad - seems like a pretty good deal for everything you need to start kegging: http://martinsburg.craigslist.org/for/1408987960.html

BTW - On Sunday, Nov 8th, I'm having some friends over to check out the some of the experimental batches from this season - the better of the DME batches and wheat yeast batches. If you're close to C'ville and want to drop by, PM me and I'll send you the details - cheers!

Above and beyond, thanks again! I actually had two tanks and a regulator from serving standard retail kegs, so i only needed the corny and quick connects, which i picked up yesterday from Weekend Brewer in Chester. Now just need to convert the extra mini fridge i got sitting around.

I started that batch of cider last night as well. The cider i got from dickie bros was labeled as Millers Orchard, so i guess that is their supplier. But for those curious the OG was 1.052, adding 10oz turbinado (sugar in the raw) and 5 oz dextrose upped that to 1.060, adding another 6oz turb & 3 oz dex took it up to 1.064, so your 18/9 split would have pretty much hit the money for 1.065, but i wanted to play it safe. This is a 5 gallon batch btw. I pitched one packet of coopers (dry, no starter) when the cider was around 63F before i went to bed. It is bubbling very slowly but steadily this morning, hope that continues and i didn't pitch too cold, i got another packet in case.

I noticed the temp range of coopers is 69-79F (weekend brewer site), have you had any problems since you seem to ferment at temps lower than that? I think this may actually help me have a slower ferment since mine will be kept at around 70.

Will update with results.

rjschroed said:

I assume nothing and after your explanation, your comments make perfect sense but I wanted to make sure things were clear before something stupid happen. I don't need to make any enemies here and have no reason to treat anyone on any online forum like an idiot. There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers. reading this sticky on this forum is a great start on making some great cider. Have you ever homebrewed before?

Click to expand...

I'm brand new to home brewing though many friends and family have been into it for a while. I enjoy the process of creating something yourself so this seems like a logical hobby for me.

Once the weather gets cool, my basement is usually around 55-60F and I've never had a problem with any of the yeasts at that temp, although they will take a lot longer to ferment out - which I view as a plus. I'm pretty sure that the recommend range is for fermenting a regular ale in a short (week or less) amount of time. Coopers will go pretty fast at 70F, so you'll need to keep an eye on it.