Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

CvilleKev,

on some of these wild yeast strains that you are getting have you considered harvesting and washing some of the yeast, with that you could try to reproduce some of your more favored brews?

RugenBrau said:

When you tried the 4184 sweet mead yeast what was the FG? I am reading where this yeast is suppose to die out early and I was wondering how sweet the cider would be.

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Rugen,
the 4184 stopped at 1.010 for me. the cider was left tasting sweet and appley. i had boosted with two pounds light brown sugar so im thinking its still close to 8% abv (didnt take OG). regardless, i am wicked happy with the result and recommend the sweet mead yeast.

Kev, I was wondering just how exactly you got the S-04 batch to stop fermenting. I've started a batch that is 3.5 gallons of grape juice and 1 gallon of apple. I want to keep it above 1.006. Did you just rack it to a secondary, crash cool, and then keg it. Did you get it to completely stop?

Rugen – I’m glad to hear that your S23 improved. I finished off mine at a party a couple of weeks ago and it was great! It was the first keg to float (although we had already made a decent dent in it before the party). It was tough to stop fermenting though. Cold crashing it slowed it down, but it took 2 additional rackings to stop it at 1.002. I just started another batch. I crashed my 4184 batch at 1.002, and it dropped another couple of points over the next two weeks to 1.000. That was further than I wanted it go go and it started out pretty dry and raw tasting. That was a couple of months ago. It is just starting to get decent tasting now

Cheeto – I’ve considered harvesting and washing the wild yeast and probably will at some point, but for now I’m just experimenting with what happens naturally. I’ve only got a few wild batches to come out good so don’t have much basis of comparison for what makes one wild batch better than another. I started my first attempt to do a wild keg batch about 6 weeks ago. It came out pretty good. I crashed it at 1.014 and it is currently clearing in the secondary. It took a week for fermentation to start and I was just about to give up and add some ale yeast, but I’m glad I waited. I just started another wild keg batch yesterday.

Bwright – I usually rack to a spare 6gal carboy, then crash cool for one or two days and then rack into a 5 gal secondary. Usually I let the secondary sit a few weeks to continue clearing, but sometimes I go right into the keg - depending on how clear it is, how good it tastes, and whether I need something to tap. The S04 always stops right away, which is one of the reasons I like using it. Sometimes I will see some airlock activity with S04, but I’m pretty sure that is malolactic fermentation because the sg never drops. One thing that is a little puzzling to me is that last year I did a lot of different yeasts in gallon batches and they all cold crashed with no problems, even at fairly high sg. In 5 gallon batches, the S23 and 4184 sgs kept dropping after crashing. I’m not sure why. Maybe the larger volume and fermentation activity keeps some of the yeast warm enough to keep going. Come to think of it, I might try to make some sort of stand to make sure that the bottom of the carboy gets cold when I crash the S23 I just started. But the ale yeasts I’ve been using (S04, US05 and Nottingham) all crash with no problem, as did the 3068 and wild batch.

Hi Folks - Here are some preliminary results from 21 experimental batches I started at the end of October, to check out the effects of k-meta and k-sorbate. All were done using the same juice which was a mix of Staymans and Winesaps, unpasteurized, with an unsweetened sg of 1.050 and pH of 3.7:

I made 16 single gallon batches that were all variations of the same recipe, plus another 5 gallons that were wild yeast batches, with different methods for stopping fermentation. I bottled three liters from each batch. My goal was to taste one liter from each batch as soon after bottling as possible, then again sometime in the Spring and then next Fall, to see how they hold up over time.

Much to my surprise, the wild batches finished fermenting first. I didn’t check them until they got to 1.002, which was a little too dry, but they were still drinkable. The five wild batches were finished as follows:
- One just cold crashed with no additives.
- One with half the recommend dose of k-meta (1/40tsp) after fermentation and then cold crashed.
- One with the recommended 1/20tsp of k-meta after fermentation and cold crash.
- One with a half dose of k-meta and half a dose (1/4tsp) of k-sorbate after fermentation, no cold crash
- One with a full dose of k-meta and half a dose of k-sorbate after fermentation, no cold crash.

I didn’t have time to set up a dedicated tasting for these so we opened them at the beginning of a party a few weeks ago and checked them out. I had rating sheets, but it was kinda hectic and there was better stuff on tap so most people only tasted 2 or 3 before moving on and they all got mediocre scores. So I dont have much of a consensus opinion on these, just my own impression. This was about a month after bottling and at this point, the k-meta and k-sorbate both had easily discernible tastes. The k-meta had the sour bite, even in the half dose and the k-sorbate has a sweeter, sort of spicy taste, that I cant really describe, but if you put a little bit of fresh k-sorbate on your tongue, that’s the taste. It doesn’t change much after reacting with the cider for a month. Fortunately the two additives are somewhat complimentary. My favorite of the five was the one with the ½ dose of k-meta, plus the k-sorbate, but that was partly because the ciders didn’t have a whole lot of taste to start with – most of the sugar was gone. The k-sorbated batches were also noticeably clearer than the ones I cold crashed, so it acts somewhat as a clearing agent.

While the wild yeast batches were fermenting away, I was keeping a closer watch on the 16 S04 batches. All of them had 3oz of organic cane sugar and 1.5oz of corn sugar to bump the sg to 1.060. I tried to stop them all at 1.006, but I wasn’t able to check them every night so one finished at 1.008 and a few went to 1.004 and 1.002. The batches were as follows:

- No k-meta added before or after fermentation - cold crash
- No k-meta before fermentation, ½ dose afterwards - cold crash
- No k-meta before fermentation, 1/3 dose afterwards - cold crash
- No k-meta before fermentation, regular dose afterwards - cold crash
- 1/3 dose k-meta before fermentation, none afterwards - cold crash
- 1/3 dose k-meta before fermentation, 1/3 afterwards - cold crash
- ½ dose k-meta before fermentation, none afterwards - cold crash
- ½ dose k-meta before fermentation, ½ afterwards - cold crash
- regular dose k-meta before fermentation, none afterwards – cold crash

- No k-meta before fermentation, 1/3 dose afterwards – sorbate, no cold crash
- No k-meta before fermentation, ½ dose afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash
- No k-meta before fermentation, regular dose afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash
- 1/3 dose k-meta before fermentation, 1/3 afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash
- 1/3 dose k-meta before fermentation, 2/3 afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash
- ½ dose k-meta before fermentation, ½ afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash
- ½ dose k-meta before fermentation, regular dose afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash

When I sorbated these, I used the full recommended 1/2tsp dose. I tried the first few with 1/4tsp but that was not enough stop the fermentation of the S04. For the wild batches ¼tsp was enough to stop fermentation. As with the wild yeast batches, the ones with sorbate cleared up more than the ones I cold crashed.

After I bottled these, I realized that 16 different batches would be really tough to compare all at once, but by then it was too late to go back and re-think this. Last weekend a good friend had a birthday, so we had a critical mass for a tasting. Amazingly, besides myself a half dozen folks made it through all of the batches and scored them and several folks got partially through the list, so I have a few other opinions to go on besides my own taste.

The batch with no k-meta before fermentation, a full dose of k-meta afterwards and cold crashed scored the best across the board. Generally, the batches that had no k-meta in the beginning, some k-meta at the end and cold crashed scored better. The sorbated batches generally didn’t score as well, except for the batch with 1/3 dose of k-meta in the beginning, and 1/3 dose of k-meta at the end, just before sorbating. Maybe this is the optimal taste balance of k-meta to the sorbate, but I suspect the real reason was that this was the one batch that I stopped at 1.008, which was higher than all the others – in which case the lesson is that it doesn’t matter much what you do, just don’t let the sugar drop too low. For some reason, no one else liked the first batch that had no additives at all - just the cold crash, although it was one of my favorites

I didn’t like the sorbate as much on these batches as I did with the wild yeast batches, and most folks seemed to agree with the scoring I think part of it was because I had to use the full dose of sorbate to get the S04 to stop fermenting. Also, because these batches had a higher FG, they had a little more apple taste than the wild batches, and the sorbate stomped on that a bit. I was hoping that I could use sorbate as an alternative to cold crashing because its easier and it helps the cider to clear, but at this stage at least, I didn’t care for it as much. Maybe it will get better as time goes on. A few people really liked though, so I’d still recommend at least trying it and see if you like the taste, as it is easier than cold crashing.

Another thing that I found interesting and useful is that the k-meta taste wasn’t nearly as prominent when the k-meta is added after fermentation, compared to the same amount of k-meta added before fermentation. The tartness is still there, but its not as harsh. That would lead me to believe that in addition to having some taste of its own, the k-meta must also affect the fermentation – otherwise adding it earlier in the process ought to cause the taste to fade more. I’m hoping that this means that the preservative effects of the k-meta can be gained afterwards, so one could make a batch and then either drink it right away or add k-meta for storage.

So after you crash cool and rack it, do you leave it in the fridge or can you bring it back to room temp to clear? I really don't have room in my kegerator for a 5 gallon carboy to be clearing. Also, would it be any harder to stop fermentation at like 1.006 as compared to 1.002?

I usually bring it up to room temp to clear (room temp being my basement which stays between 58 and 65 these days). I've crashed S04 batches as high as 1.010 and they have always stayed stable. One thing I have learned is on the last rack after cooling, dont try to get every last drop of clear cider because when you get close to the bottom is when you are most likely to accidentally suck up some yeast. On the rack before the cooling, you can afford to be a little more sloppy because any yeast you accidentally suck up will precipitate out in the fridge.

Why all the effort to stop an active fermentation. Why not just let it ferment to dry then back sweeten to the desired taste and force carbonate if desired?

After all it appears that the ones with the highest residual sugar tend to be preferred.

"Residual sugar" is not back sweetening with lactose or splenda. To me its not even comparable. The natural sugars in the grape juice are what makes it taste good. Lactose is made from milk. It's just not the same. Also, if let it ferment out all the way, it's going to be dry regardless of whether or not you back sweeten.

I'm not talking about lactose or splenda. I'm talking about back sweetening with either beet, cane, or corn sugar. Maybe it's just me, but I can't taste the difference between cider with residual sugar and cider that has been back sweetened with cane or beet sugar.

After all, many people here seem to be adding sugar to increase the alcohol content anyway. How do you know if it is the naturally occurring sugars that remain or the added sugars when you have residual sugar?

phred_02 said:

I'm not talking about lactose or splenda. I'm talking about back sweetening with either beet, cane, or corn sugar. Maybe it's just me, but I can't taste the difference between cider with residual sugar and cider that has been back sweetened with cane or beet sugar.

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Good luck getting that to not ferment out.

Evan! said:

Good luck getting that to not ferment out.

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Yep, that is what I was just thinking. Every time I've done this that is what happens.

So here's my plan, correct me if I'm wrong. I've had this fermenting about 4 days now. I'm gonig to check the gravity and when it reaches 1.007 I will rack it to a 5 gallon carboy. I'll still have an active fermentation if I left it at that. Then I crash cool it to about 35? to get the rest of the 04 to drop out. Leave it there a couple of days and then rack into another 5 gallon carboy and let it clear in my basement (60F). At this point, if I was careful while racking, the fermentation should have held at 1.007.

Cold crashing works..but you risk some yeast restarting after you bring it in and take it back up to 60F. Even some lagers that has been cold crashed, then bottled has quite frequently "self carbed" itself after the fact.

I'd play it safe and if you want to stop it...take frequent Hydro readings..and then add sodium metabisulphite and sorbate to it, and wait for it to clear.

Dan

what flyweed says. The only way you're going to safely backsweeten with fermentables and keep them from fermenting is to cold-crash, then back sweeten while it's cold, then add K-meta (campden tablets), then send it to a keg and keep it cold the whole time. Maybe Kevin can correct me here, but I just wouldn't trust it, especially if you're bottling.

Alright, you've beaten me into submission. I have to see if this initial batch works though. Kevin is talking about a specific yeast US-04. He was only able to do this with one other yeast. That's why I used it. I don't want to back sweeten at all. That's my whole point here. To not HAVE to backsweeten. But, since my experience is limited, maybe I'm going about this wrong anyway. I've got it in my head that to allow the fermentation to go its course will take my gravity to around 1.000. Now, I started at 1.070 to beging with, so its going to be dry as hell. Which is exactly what I DONT want. And even if I back sweeten, it will still have a bit of a sharp taste to it. Am I wrong about this? I've never back sweetened anything. It always seemed to me that back sweetening is a technique used to try and mask that sharp bite that dry wines have. I was trying to avoid that all together. Acording to Kevin, it can be done with a specific yeast (US-04), multiple rackings, and cold crashing. Apparently everyone else completely disagrees. I think it would be possible if kept it cold after cold crashing. My intent wasn't to bottle, although I would love to bottle some. If back sweetening will result in the same taste as leaving some residual sugars at 1.007, then that's what I'll do. Otherwise, I've got to give this a try. And if I do add the chemicals, I can still only back sweeten with unfermentables right? lactose, splenda......

Well it's entirely up to you how you do it..but the best way is probably to let it ferment out and backsweeten. I've backsweetened Apfelwein and it doesn't take away anything from the original taste, other than being sweeter to my liking. So I don't think sweetening after fermenting causes any problems..it does take away the "dryness"...but that's about it.

IF you DO add the K-meta and sorbate..you can backsweeten with anything...I used K-meta and sorbate in my apfelwein let it sit a good 48 hours, then backsweetened with 2 cans of apple juice concentrate and 1/4 wildflower honey....this took my apfelwein from a S.G. of .998, to right around 1.013 at 66F. I now have it kegged and carbonating at 25psi for about a week.

Anyway..like I said, it's totally up to you on how you do it, but if you go the cold crash route, crash it, and keep it cold until it's ALL gone..otherwise you will have fermentation likely restart on you.

Good luck and keep us posted
Dan

Sounds good. One last thing though, I've read differing opinions on whether or not the k-meta and sorbate adds flavor (notably acidity) to the apfelwein. Lactose seems to be the easiest route to backsweeten, but being that it comes from milk makes me pause. Although, I've never used it. Keep you posted.

So, can you go thru the cold shock process, rerack, let settle, then bottle like beer with priming sugar?

Possibly, and only if you keep it cold. I wouldn't bottle without a full fermentation and chemicals.

What you do is up to you, but I can assure you that cold crashing works if you do it right. I've made well over 400 gallons of cider in the past 10 years, cold crashed most of it, store at room temp and never had a problem. I do mostly kegs, but I've also done close to 300 liter bottles, also stored at room temp. The only time I've ever cracked a bottle was with a wild yeast batch that I made last year and crashed at 1.020. One of the bottles cracked over the summer, sometime in July. I knew I was pushing the envelope with that batch, usually I crash at 1.010 or lower.

I've never had a problem cold crashing gallon batches, regardless of the yeast, other than the aforementioned bottle of wild yeast. I've also never had a problem with 5 gal batches of Nottingham, S04, US05 or 3068. 5 gal batches of 4184 and S23 have been a little tougher to stop.

Pasteurized juice does take longer to crash. Probably because the yeast binds to the pectin, which is slow to fluctuate. I forgot to mention that before. I havent used pasteurized juice in a while.

At any rate, its easy enough to test this yourself. Rack it, chill it for a day or two, rack it again and let it come back up to room temp. Let it sit for as long as you want. If the sg stays stable, you're good. If not, you can drink it, keg it or sorbate and bottle it. Either way, you havent lost anything.

If you cold crash and bottle it though, its going to be still. All the priming sugar is going to do is sweeten it.

k-meta and k-sorbate both leave easily discernible tastes. The k-meta is less obnoxious if added after fermentation, but still has some taste. k-sorbate leaves a more prominent taste, but it is less objectionable than the k-sorbate. This is something you can easily verify yourself if you are bottling - bottle a few before you add any chemicals. Then add the chemicals and bottle the rest. Then you can compare them later. You may find that you like the taste of the sorbate, but you will definitely notice a difference.

I have backsweetened kegs with a mix of organic cane sugar and dextrose if I accidentally let one ferment out too far. You can get an acceptable taste, but its not the same as the natural sugar. The last half a percent or so is where most of the complex sugars in the apple juice get fermented and those complex sugars are what gives you the apple taste. Cane and corn sugar can get you back to something that is drinkable, but its not the same flavor - at least not if you are starting with fresh pressed apple juice.

so, if i understand right, cold crashing following this method would effectively stop fermentation and stabilize your drink for backsweetening, without the need for chemicals?

Yes, but if you cold crash before the yeast ferments out all the apple sugar - somewhere between 1.002 and 1.010 according to taste - you wont need to backsweeten

oh, i know about the fact that not fermenting all the way will give you with a sweeter cider, i wanted to know if cold crashing would really stabilize your brew and prevent any future yeast activity.

I suppose the theory behind it is linked to dramatically lowering the yeast cell count in your batch by racking it all off..?

well its the kind of question i will be able to answer on this forum in a couple of weeks, i'm undertaking oenology studies to become an assistant winemaker in the local wine industry... first course was yesterday... wish me luck!!!!

That clears up a lot. Now I'm satisfied. I'm going to give it a try.

I typically use potassium sorbate to stabilize my ciders and wine. I don't really notice much of a taste from it, but maybe it is just me.

In theory cold crashing should cause all of the yeast to settle out in a relatively short amount of time. However I have never tried it YMMV.

Another method that is used is sterile filtering, which is common in wine making.

Steve

Sterile filtering might be a worthwhile option. Buon Vino makes a home sized unit that can filter a gallon a minute, which is a whole lot faster than cold crashing. The rub is that the cider has to be pretty clear before you run it through the filter and it would be still fermenting and cloudy at this point. It would be interesting to see if adding some Bentonite to a fermenting batch could clear it long enough to then run it through a filter, and what effect that would have on the taste.

Ideally one of the yeast suppliers will come up with a yeast that naturally finishes at 7 or 8 percent abv. That would really cut the time it takes to make a keg of semi-dry and you could even bottle carb. Maybe one of us will get lucky and find a wild yeast that has a naturally lower abv tolerance than ale yeast. Until then I’ve resigned to cold crashing for at least another season. I’ll probably try k-sorbate again next season to see how it works with different yeasts. The taste isnt bad, just different, and it might go better with Nottingham or US05. It did clear the cider nicely – better than cold crashing. It may also fade by the next tasting.

I’ve become more of a fan of cysers this season, partly because I made some better tasting ones and partly because they crash and clear so fast. I’ve gotten best results so far with S04, Stayman blends and Basswood and Orange Blossom Honey that I got from Northern Brewer. Also I made two cysers with Jonathan juice and clover honey that I let ferment out and they cleared very fast. I just crashed two more cysers last week that did not clear as well as the previous ones this season. They cleared a lot in a couple of days and have got more clear since sitting in secondaries for a week, but didn’t get the overnight glass finish that the first ones did. I’m not sure if this is because of the juice (Staymans and Romes) or honey (NB Clover and Wildflower) or possibly even brewing temps (lower and slower than usual).

kevin,

Very informative thread you've got going here...I think I am going to try my first batch shortly and I am going to try a Cyser with the S04 yeast on your recommendation.

I'm in central NC and I was planning on just getting some cider from a local grocery store - what would you suggest I do to find some locally mashed cider like you are using?

Should I just find the closest apple orchard and give them a call? It seems most of the orchards are in the Appalachians which is too long of a drive for me. However if they have a distributer that is local I would like to find it. I would prefer to know the blend of apples used and know that the cider I get is UV pasteurized only, as I have a keg system and would like this drinkable ASAP!

Much thanks for all of your good work and contribution, hopefully I can provide some insight in the future.

Hi Czerewko – The website “all about apples” has pretty good listings for orchards in each state, as well as info about a lot of apple varieties. Here is their listing for NC. You also might want to check with your local Farm Bureau.

All About Apples | North Carolina Apple Orchard and Farm Listings

My guess is that you are going to have a tough time finding fresh pressed juice this late in the season, but you might get lucky, especially if someone close is pressing from apples in cold storage.

You can use unpasteurized juice and still drink it fairly quickly – just cut back on the dose of k-meta. If the juice is already pretty tart, don’t use any k-meta and if it is not very tart, add a half dose. Make sure the juice is really fresh though if its unpasteurized.

If you go with store bought juice, you might want to check out what is available and see how it tastes fresh, before fermenting anything. I tried fermenting some Orchard Valley juice, which Whole Foods carries. It was decent, but not as good as the fresh pressed stuff. You also might want to consider stopping it earlier, say between 1.010 and 1.020. The big commercial presses around here tend to use a lot of red delicious apples for table juice. It is good when it is fresh, but not as much taste left when you ferment most of the sugar off.

ok im in the middle of my winery assistant courses now and one important thing about kmeta i've learned is that the effective levels are below the tasting threshold.
When you add KMS, a huge part will get bound right away with many organic constituant of your wine/cider (around 90%, as bisulfate ions) leaving an amount of molecular SO2 that is relative to the pH of you juice/brew. Its that molecular SO2 that is antimicrobial, the rest aving antioxydant properties atfter a certain amount... 50 ppm if i recall....
So, if you are not in a financial position of buying a pH meter, i would suggest that if you can taste it, there's too much.

cheers