Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

CvilleKevin · Sep 28, 2011

motobrewer - I have never found aeration necessary for cider and suspect that it would increase the likelihood of picking up acetobacter, so I dont do it.

smyrnaquince - interesting... I've had OK results with 71B but not with the WLP720, which I think goes to show that it is all somewhat juice dependent, although I got the same good results (if you like it dry) with the D47.

The ale yeasts are probably not the best for taking to dryness. I tried this with five keg batches three years ago, using S04, Notty and US05. Three ciders and two cysers. They were undrinkable for well over a year. By the 2nd year, they were OK for dry ciders. I still have some left in the kegs and break them out now and then for parties. Wine drinkers like them a lot, but obviously not that much because there is still some left.

I like to have at least one dry cider on tap for a party but aside from those 5 batches I did in 2008, I havent intentionally fermented a cider to dryness in the past 10 years (although I've unintentionally fermented plenty to dryness). S04 makes a great dry cider if you catch it around 1.002, at which point you would swear it is dry by the taste and finish, but it has a lot more flavor than truly dry.

How was the finish on your S04? In my experience, if the cider has a decent finish, then it will almost always get better with age.

I believe the best dry cider I've made was with 3056 yeast last year. I usually crash this yeast at 1.010 or higher, but I waited too long and didnt catch it til 1.002. At first it didnt have much taste, but it had a nice tail. Five months later it was really nice. I tapped the keg at a party and it floated before several of the sweet ones, which really surprised me because normally the dry cider dont get much love from my friends.

Jrod · Sep 30, 2011

Took me the better part of 2 days to read all of this thread. Wow tons of info. Kevin thanks for all of the notes. I love the tasting notes and cider party scoring system in particular.

I was inspired and started a 3 gallon batch on Tuesday night. Pasturized cider (pretty lame tasting actually) with a mix of turbinado and dextrose and Nottingham yeast. The good tasting cider at the local store has preservatives. I may hit up a local orchard to see what I can find.

I think I tossed the yeast in too cold (50ish) and I still have no visible airlock activity after 60+ hours. It's sitting upstairs in the 70 degree living room.

I going to wait it out and see what happens. If nothing in the next day or so. I'll repitch.

Thanks again for sharing all of the info.

-Jared

smyrnaquince · Oct 2, 2011

CvilleKevin,

My goal was to make a sweet cider, I just didn't know how until reading your postings in this thread.

I can now refer to my notes. All were fermented to dryness except as noted.

Cold-crashed S-04 OG=1.051, crashed at 1.012): sweet, apple/cherry/fig juice notes, nice flavor all the way through. This carbed a fair bit on its own, so I probably need to do a better job of racking, but we liked the fizz.

S-04 (dry): aroma of grass/pear, mild, close second to D47

For dry ciders, as I said, the D47 came in first. Interestingly enough, the batch that I added sugar to to carbonate was better than the one that I did not. For the latter, the notes are: flat, a little sour, vinegar, acid

The Oddball:

1/2 gal WF apple juice, 1 qt R. W. Knudsen "Just Black Cherry" juice, 1 qt 365 (WF brand) organic lemonade, 1/4 tsp tannin, 1 tsp yeast nutrient, 1/3 vial WLP720
OG 1.061, FG 1.005 at bottling 11 days later (I was new and didn't realize it would go further)
Best cherry flavor at 1 (sweet), 5 (dry), and 6 (dry) months
Months 2 & 3: sweet, lost a lot of cherry (that then came back in month 5)
Now (@10 months): cucumber, "Japanese", vegetal, cherry (a little), hint of astringency, would be good with sushi

I plan to use the S-04 this fall for a sweet cider and the D47 for a dry cider.

CvilleKevin · Oct 4, 2011

I just crashed the last of the batches that were pressed on Sept 19th. It was the WLP041 batch, and I stopped it at 1.015. This has been a great yeast to work with for early season apples. Even with the relatively high temps in my basement, it fermented out nice and slow, which is a real plus when everything else is dropping like a stone. Ever since it hit 1.022, its tasted great - nice and appley although the finish was just a tad sticky until tonight. I thought about letting it go another few points, although I decided not to because I'm trying to get something that tastes close to an experimental batch from the last tasting, which was more of a sweet cider. I'll probabaly be using this again later in the season to check out how it works a little drier.

I kegged the Brupaks and Wy3056 batches a few days ago. These are my two favorites of the bunch and the Wy3056 is SWMBO's favorite. The Brupaks make a tasty pub cider that has a lot of flavor but still manages to feel dryer than it is (1.010). The Wy3056 is a little sweeter and more appley. The finish is a little sweet at 1.016, but not clingy. I took a couple liters of each to a party on Saturday and they were gone in no time.

Man its nice to have fresh cider on tap again! Last season I did manage to save a few kegs through the summer, so I never really ran out, but nothing I had saved is as good as these kegs.

I kegged the US05 with raspberry batch yesterday at 1.000. Thats a lot drier than I meant for it to go. In retrospect, doing an early season batch with ale yeast and raspberries probably wasnt the best idea. Usually I add the raspberries a few days before the crash when the cider is at about 1.010. The sugar bumps up the sg and in a couple days it is back down to 1.008 to 1.010. But with the temps being warm, the cider was already at 1.008 when I added the raspberries. When I checked it again the next day, it had dropped all the way to 1.000. That's pretty much how I make dry ciders these days - by accident. But for a dry cider, its really good. You get a lot of apple tannins at first in the taste, then the raspberry kicks in, then the rest of the apple and it’s a great finish. I havent tried it out on any of my dry drinking friends, but I'm thinking it will be fairly popular. It could use a little more time to mellow, but might not last that long.

The Wy3333 batch didnt come out quite the way I wanted. I've been using Wy3333 and honey to make a bottle conditioned cider using nitrogen reduction. That recipe is succesful in that I've been able to reliably bottle carb with it for two years now without breaking any bottles (knock on wood). The resulting cider is very drinkable, but not my best cyser recipe. A keg carbed Wy1010 cyser tastes a lot better IMHO. So this time I decided to try bumping the WY3333 with sugar instead of honey. It tastes great, but I would not trust this stuff in a bottle. During the crash, it kept blowing the bung out of the carboy. Its still real cloudy. Its at 1.010 and tastes the way I always expected a hefe cider to taste - appley, but also a bit orangy, with some clove. A little yeasty, so I've racked it once already while keeping it in the fridge. I might rack one more time before kegging it. I think this is going to be fairly popular and I really hope thats the case, because this is one that is probably going to have to keep cold to keep from refermenting. Fortunately I can do that now. I'm really liking this fridge. I dont know why I didnt buy something like this 15 years ago - would have saved me from all sorts of cider worries.

I crashed the Wy3068 last night at 1.018. That's another one of SWMBO's favorites. Its nice and juicy. Lots of apple with a hint of clove.

The US05 and S04 batches have finished the crash and have been bulk aging for a few days. The S04 smells real carmelly, good apple with lots of skin in the taste. The US05 batch is a little lighter all around even though both are at the same sg 1.006. Both are nice semi dry pub ciders which I'll probably keg later this week.

All of the ale yeast batches and the Wy3056 got nice and clear in the crash. That's usually what happens although last year it seemed that the ciders took forever to clear for some reason. I'm glad not to see a repeat of that. WY3333 and Wy3068 stayed cloudy, which was not too surprising.

Staymans should be ready in another week or so and I'm already thinking about the next round of keg batches. For the next round, I'm going to try out a technique that I picked up from the guy who runs the cider press. He lets his cider clear a few days and then siphons it off the trub before pitching the yeast. His finished ciders are always crystal clear. I'm not sure how that will affect the taste, so I'm planning on doing 4 batches with cleared cider and 4 batches the regular way. Two batches each of Brupaks, S04, Wy3056 and Wy3068.

CvilleKevin · Oct 7, 2011

Kegged the WLP041 batch last night and the Wy3333 batch tonight. Both taste great!

The fermentation on US05 and S04 batches started up again so I crashed them again. Planning on kegging these and the Wy3068 batch tomorrow.

All 8 kegs from the last pressing fit in the fridge. I picked up a 4 way CO2 distributer so I can force carb 4 kegs at once. Life is good, slightly hazy.

I'm planning on tapping these at a party here on Sunday. If you live near central VA and want to check them out, PM me.

just realized this is my 1000th post. Not sure if I should celebrate or check myself in somewhere. Nah.... celebrate wins hands down. that W3333 batch is growing on me

BWN · Oct 9, 2011

I just read the whole thread, I had to work the night shift so it kept me occupied throughout the night

. I started reading just to figure out what to do with some fresh pressed unpasteurized cider. Now I want to buy more carboys and cider and start my own experiments.

Before reading this thread all the way through I went to the lhbs and picked up some 71B-1122. I wanted us 05 but they were out and the guy working talked me out of the s -04 because it was 4.95 compared to 1.25 for the 71B. Since I am only doing 2 1 gallon batches I guess it made sense at the time.

Here is my plan: I added a campden tablet to each jug yesterday(after reading this whole thread I see it might not have been necessary). I am going to bump up the OG to 1.060 to 1.065 using corn sugar and brown sugar(its all I have at home) then pitch the yeast and put the jugs in the basement. I am reading the 71B is good for a dry cider, if I stop the fermentation early by cold crashing and racking how will it taste? I wanted to get semi sweet to sweet cider as I was trying to get something similar to woodchuck. Would I be better off letting it ferment out then try and backsweeten with more cider or apple juice and just keep it cold? Or should I back sweeten and pasteurize, or pasteurize when it tastes the way I like it?

After reading this whole thread I am planning on getting 5 gallons and using the s-04 or notty and doing a whole batch but I am ready to get started on these smaller ones now. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

CvilleKevin · Oct 9, 2011

Now I want to buy more carboys and cider and start my own experiments

You should do it! Its hard to find comparative info on using various yeasts for cider, even though yeast is generally the greatest determining factor for cider - at least as far as the raw ingredients are concerned. The more data points the better so let us all know how they come out.

the guy working talked me out of the s -04 because it was 4.95 compared to 1.25 for the 71B.

Ouch! My LHBS sells S04 for 3.50. Fermentis and Danstar have really jacked their yeast prices in the past couple years. Two years ago S04 was $2.00 and Notty was $1.25. Brupaks is still a good deal, even with shipping from UK

I am reading the 71B is good for a dry cider, if I stop the fermentation early by cold crashing and racking how will it taste?

If you are just doing gallons, that could work. In general, champagne, lager and wine (including 71B) dont crash very well, but gallon batches seem to do better. I think maybe because there is less thermal mass they chill faster and deliver more of a shock to the yeast. I doubt you could stop a carboy of 71B by cold crashing.

Would I be better off letting it ferment out then try and backsweeten with more cider or apple juice and just keep it cold? Or should I back sweeten and pasteurize, or pasteurize when it tastes the way I like it?

Since you only have 2 gallons, I would just crash them when they are at an SG that tastes good to you, and then just keep them in the fridge. Maybe stop them at different point for comparative purposes. Since 71B is tough to crash, there is a good chance they will still pick up a bit of carb, so you probably should use PET bottles for first few batches.

BWN · Oct 9, 2011

CvilleKevin, Thanks for the replies. I think I will be trying more batches as I have cider mill about 20 minutes from my house. I will have to wait a few weeks though because I don't have the fridge space to cold crash a carboy so I need to wait and take advantage of the cold weather. I will continue to play around with the 1 gallon batches for now. I have a bunch of empty plastic apple juice bottles that I used to make apfelwein still laying around, is there any reason I can't use those to rack to and store it in? I doubt it will last long if it is even slightly drinkable.

CvilleKevin · Oct 9, 2011

I have a bunch of empty plastic apple juice bottles that I used to make apfelwein still laying around, is there any reason I can't use those to rack to and store it in? I doubt it will last long if it is even slightly drinkable.

Those are fine for fermenting and short term storage as long as you clean and sanitize them

frydogbrews · Oct 9, 2011

just bought 30 gal's of fresh juice from local orchard. mainly mutsu apples with some blushing golden and rome's. 3.7 pH, 7% alcohol/sugar conversion through the refractometer. added acid to three batches, made two batches into cyser with 5 pounds local honey, one cyser with k1v, and one with ec-1118. other batches of dry cider i used k1v, s-04, ec, and the liquid wyeast cider yeast. i want everything dry, as dry as possible. used go ferm hydration nutrient and will be doing staggered nutrient additions with fermaid o. this method has always worked great for me. i also always aerate before pitching and several times throughout the fermenting process. hydrogen sulfide sucks, and by doing this, i seem to avoid it. i do worry about acetobacter, but i do what i can to minimize the chances of that. if it happens, big deal, i have 5 gallons of delicious apple cider vinegar, which i can bottle and use for the next several years.

hit everything with camden, sit for 36 hours before innoculation.
next year i am probably going to do one big batch, around 40 gallons, and then 2 small batches. i drink this stuff like its water and i always have at least one on tap.

favorite part of the weekend is ending the night with a small pour of dry cider. i'll have beer during the day, dry red wine all night, then get tired and a big wine glass full of cider hydrates me and wipes away the dry mouth. wake up, no hangover. it's magic!

BWN · Oct 10, 2011

CvilleKevin,
Somewhere in this thread you posted a link to the website where you bought those clear swing tops. I tried searching the thread but can't find the post would you mind posting that link again?

Jrod · Oct 10, 2011

I also posed this question in the fermentation forum but wanted some cider input.

So I've been messing around with cider for a few weeks and I have a nagging question that I need answered.

Does yeast metabolize sugar in order of complexity?

So in a cider could you end up with more apple flavor by adding a sugar that was less complex than the apple sugar? Example being dextrose...

Or in the same line of thinking could you brew 2 gallons of beer and allow the yeast to work it's way through maltose and then rack the beer ontop of 3 gallons of cider and end up with more apple flavor than if you added the cider to your wort at the beginning and the yeast worked on the simpler apple sugars for a longer period of time?

This might also depend on if you halted fermentation at the end to retain some residual sweetness rather than letting it go completely dry.

Any thoughts?

CvilleKevin · Oct 10, 2011

Somewhere in this thread you posted a link to the website where you bought those clear swing tops. I tried searching the thread but can't find the post would you mind posting that link again?

http://www.ebottles.com/showbottles.asp?familyid=1314

Does yeast metabolize sugar in order of complexity?

I believe so - although that is based on taste and not looking at yeast and sugars under a microscope. Also I doubt that there is a clear dividing line between how the yeast devours the simple and more complex sugars, but that a higher proportion of simple sugars are consumed early in the ferment, with a higher proportion of complex sugars left at the end.

So in a cider could you end up with more apple flavor by adding a sugar that was less complex than the apple sugar? Example being dextrose...

to some extent yes. except that even the simple sugars leave some residual taste. Even dextrose. People assume that dextrose ferments cleanly, but it doesnt - it leaves a slightly beery taste which makes it seem neutral in a beer but you can pick it out in a cider if you use enough of it. In my experience, if you use more than about 6 oz per gallon of dextrose or cane sugar, you will notice the difference compared to just apple juice, at the same final gravity. I've found that a mix of 2/3 turbinado to 1/3 dextrose leaves a taste that is more similar to apple when it ferments out, so you could go to 8oz per gallon before it gets noticeable, although I generally try to use no more than 4 to 6 oz/gal. That is for cold crashing though. I've found that starting with an SG of about 1.065 makes it more reliable to stop the yeast with crashing because the yeast is nearing its alcohol limit - but it will still keep going if you let it. I'm not certain how much added sugar it would take to reach the alcohol level of the yeast before the sugar is gone

could you brew 2 gallons of beer and allow the yeast to work it's way through maltose and then rack the beer ontop of 3 gallons of cider and end up with more apple flavor than if you added the cider to your wort at the beginning and the yeast worked on the simpler apple sugars for a longer period of time?

perhaps - if you use an ale or wheat yeast, the yeast would be partially slowed down by the alcohol level from the beer. How much apple flavor is left at the end would depend on whether the starting combined SGs of the wort and cider are high enough so that the yeast reaches its alcohol tolerance level before running out of apple sugars. I suspect if you stopped the ferment early via cold crashing, you would get more apple flavor this way than if you had added both ingredients together at the beginning. Sounds like it would be an interesting thing to try

nyer · Oct 14, 2011

I bought 6 gallons of juice yesterday and the gravity is 1.042. Does anyone know approx. how much sugar it should take to get it up to 1.060?

dinnerstick · Oct 14, 2011

1.042 = (more or less) 10.5% sugar (g/100 ml)
1.060 = 17.75% sugar
so you want to add 7.25 g sugar per every 100 ml juice, or 72.5g per L,
6g = 22.7 L,
72.5 g sugar x 22.7 L = 1.65 kg sugar for 6 gal.
boom
get drunk

nyer · Oct 14, 2011

dinnerstick said:
1.042 = (more or less) 10.5% sugar (g/100 ml)
1.060 = 17.75% sugar
so you want to add 7.25 g sugar per every 100 ml juice, or 72.5g per L,
6g = 22.7 L,
72.5 g sugar x 22.7 L = 1.65 kg sugar for 6 gal.
boom
get drunk

Thank you.

smyrnaquince · Oct 14, 2011

CvilleKevin said:
Even though I havent added any of the clarifiers yet, there were some interesting differences between the 5 batches with pectin enzyme added ahead of time vs the 5 batches without the pectic enzyme:

The 5 batches with the pectic enzyme were a lot lighter in color, which I expected. What I didnt expect is that they also fermented quite a bit faster than the batches without the enzyme, and even a little bit faster than the gallon of unpasteurized juice, even though all 11 batches used the same S04 yeast.

...

The pectic enzyme may also make the juice harder to crash, because all 5 of the jugs with the enzyme are noticably swollen after being racked and crashed for several days, while the batches without the enzyme seem to have stopped dead without any additonal swelling in the fridge - although to be fair, the batches with the enzyme have been in the fridge longer, so I'm going to let them all go a while longer to see if the batches without the enzyme eventually swell.

CVilleKevin,

I am getting some unpasteurized cider from an orchard this weekend. I know I need to put in 1 campden tablet per gallon and let it sit 24 hours before adding the yeast. (I plan to use S-04 for a cold-crashed sweet cider and D47 for a dry cider. No additional sugar in either.)

My question is about the pectic enzyme. I had thought to use it (adding it with the campden), but your earlier posting indicated that it might be harder to cold crash the cider if I use the pectic enzyme. Do you still think this is true?

Also, did you notice any flavor differences when using the pectic enzyme?

Thanks!

JLem · Oct 14, 2011

nyer said:
I bought 6 gallons of juice yesterday and the gravity is 1.042. Does anyone know approx. how much sugar it should take to get it up to 1.060?

you want to boost it 18 gravity points per gallon, or a total of 108 gravity points for the 6 gallons. Cane sugar contains 45 gravity points per pound, so you're looking at adding 2.4 pounds of sugar for the entire 6 gallon batch (or 0.4 pounds per gallon).

In metric: ~1.1 kg for the 6 gallons - or 0.18 kg (180g) per gallon

madavis25 · Oct 14, 2011

When using the S04 for a 1 gal batch, how much do you pitch?

CvilleKevin · Oct 14, 2011

I bought 6 gallons of juice yesterday and the gravity is 1.042. Does anyone know approx. how much sugar it should take to get it up to 1.060?

I didnt realize that there were so many different answers to this question. I've always used the formula in Anne Proulx's book, "Cider", which says 4.5oz sugar per gallon for 10 points. Ben Watson's Cider book has the same formula. So 18 points would be 8.1 oz per gallon. That works out to a little over 3 pounds or 1.38kg - which is somewhere in between what dinnerstick and jlem got. I have no idea which of these numbers is the 'right' one, but 3 pounds plus or minus ought to get you in the ballpark.

your earlier posting indicated that it might be harder to cold crash the cider if I use the pectic enzyme. Do you still think this is true?

Yeah, I suspect that the pectic enzyme increases the available nutrients in the cider, making it harder to crash. OTOH, I still have about 3 dozen bottles from that experiment which have been stored for a year at room temp and none have burst, so the effect cant be that bad

Also, did you notice any flavor differences when using the pectic enzyme?

I still havent tasted any of those yet. Its been on my to-do list for a while, but I just havent got around to it. They are still sitting in my basement. Fortunately the juice has all been clearing nicely during the crash this season, so it hasnt been as pressing of an issue. I suppose I should do a tasting soon, just to free the bottles up. Now the challenge will be to find enough friends who are willing to drink 12 different liters of essentially the same recipe with various clearing agents, to pick out off flavors.

When using the S04 for a 1 gal batch, how much do you pitch?

Anywhere from 1/5 to 1/2 a packet

CvilleKevin · Oct 14, 2011

Last Sunday we had a party here and I tapped 8 kegs. Six were from this year, plus the last sweet one from last year, and a real dry one from 3 years ago. The most popular was the WLP041 keg from this year, with the Wy3333 keg a close second. I didnt break out the Brupaks or Wy3056 kegs, cause those are still my favorites from the last round and I want to make them last a while. I plan on using WLP041 a lot more this year. Real easy to work with and folks liked it a lot.

We did another juice run for the brew club yesterday. 176 gallons of Stayman, Fuji, Gala and Winesap apples. sg was 1.058. I got 51 gallons for myself - 8 six gallon keg batches and 3 one gallon jugs to test some new yeasts from Mauribrew

For the keg batches, I pitched yeast in 4 of the carboys. Wy3056, Wy3068, Brupaks Ale and US05. I put the other 4 carboys in the fridge to clear for a few days. After they clear, I'm going to rack the clear juice off and pitch the same yeasts for comparison. The guy who runs the press clears his ciders like this and they always come out looking and tasting great. Last pressing I tried this with a test gallon. I didnt ferment it, just wanted to see the difference in raw juice between cleared and cloudy. The cleared juice was nice and smooth, with a silky mouth feel and good flavor, although I liked the cloudy stuff better. It started sweeter, with a heavier mouthfeel and more aroma. So my expectation is that the cleared batches are going to look better, but the cloudy ones will taste better. Should know for certain in a few weeks.

nyer · Oct 16, 2011

CvilleKevin said:
I didnt realize that there were so many different answers to this question. I've always used the formula in Anne Proulx's book, "Cider", which says 4.5oz sugar per gallon for 10 points. Ben Watson's Cider book has the same formula. So 18 points would be 8.1 oz per gallon. That works out to a little over 3 pounds or 1.38kg - which is somewhere in between what dinnerstick and jlem got. I have no idea which of these numbers is the 'right' one, but 3 pounds plus or minus ought to get you in the ballpark.

I went with 3 pounds and that put me at 1.068. Thats ok though, it's bubbling away with an S04 starter.

oats · Oct 16, 2011

Great Post! This is the way you do trial and error!

This is what makes brewing a science.

Accidic · Oct 18, 2011

CvilleKevin said:
Now the challenge will be to find enough friends who are willing to drink 12 different liters of essentially the same recipe with various clearing agents, to pick out off flavors.

If they drink the 12 liters all in the same evening please record it and put it up for viewing. I may occasionally drink too much but drinking a case and a half ought to make for some fantastic video fodder. :tank:

CvilleKevin · Oct 18, 2011

That's 12 liters cumulatively - not apiece! That's actually a fairly light evening. I generally try to have about twice as many tasters as liters, otherwise things could get sloppy.

CidahMastah · Oct 18, 2011

Very cool progress. Looks like we are pressing this weekend and we are getting 80 bushels, 20 of each Northern Spy, Gala, Jonagold and Red Delicious. I am really looking forward to seeing how the N. Spy plays into this cider this year. A bunch of this will be sent home with family and friends... but not before we fill the fermenters. I think i am going to do a large vat of L1118 for draft cider, and I might play around with notty, 3068, and dry mead yeast. I am also considering a cyser with some buckwheat honey or orange blossom - just found a local source!

I may try to serve a live actively fermenting cider during the ferment. Low ABV, something I start a couple days in front for gimmicky value. I have done this before and it is fun because you get a carbonated live cider that is good tasting if you don't let it get too far. But the last time I did it was in college... so I can't remember the lead time...

CvilleKevin · Oct 19, 2011

we are getting 80 bushels, 20 of each Northern Spy, Gala, Jonagold and Red Delicious

Nice! You might want to get some tarts to throw into that mix. Jonathan, Winesap, York, etc. Around here there is only one orchard that has Northern Spys and they hardly had any #2s. I was happy to get 3 bushels last weekend. I'm hoping to blend them with some Albemarle Pippens, but they are even harder to find this year. We have a bunch of new commercial cideries in the area and they are buying up all the pippins.

I just racked the 4 carboys from the last pressing that I had set clearing in the fridge. They didnt clear very much. The raw juice from the first pressing cleared after a few days sitting in the fridge. This juice has been in the fridge 5 days and its still as cloudy as the day it was pressed. There was some consolidated solids on the bottom of the carboys, but not much. Tasted kinda gritty and chalky. Now I'm waiting for the carboys to warm up enough to pitch the yeast. Not sure I really accomplished anything by letting them settle, other than giving the wild yeast a 5 day head start. Time will tell I suppose.

CidahMastah · Oct 19, 2011

Yeah I wish I had some of those I could grab. Unfortunately the only apples I could get aside form those listed are cortland, empire, mac, and a few others at reasonable prices. I had one jack wagon tell me he could sell me a 20 bushel bin of golden delicious for $300!!! I was like... no thanks a-hole...

The spys have some tartness, but man it would be cool to have a bunch of crab apples. Those are the breaks when you are at the whim of your supplier (hence why have have planted my own mini orchard with about 35 trees - now the wait).

Turns out that the orchard was running low on red delicious and subbed in some spygolds and empires to fill the last 1/8 of the bin. Man spygolds are a really nice apple too.

Last year I couldn't get any spy's besides my own trees, but this year I was thrilled to get a bin. They say spys make a good single varietal. I have never done it on its own, but the orchard near me makes a nice spy wine.

The plan for this year is, make a good drinking fresh cider and then make a lot of draft cider. When you can't get certain apples (tarts) you are really limited. Still makes good cider, just not vintage.

I did plant some Kingston blacks, yarlington mill, bulmars norman, roxbury russet, frequin rouge and cox orange pippins for english and french cider apples this spring (among others). I can't wait until they start producing. probably at least 3-5 years for those.

CidahMastah · Oct 19, 2011

CvilleKevin said:
I just racked the 4 carboys from the last pressing that I had set clearing in the fridge.

I am interested to see how this turns out. It sort of goes against my thought that keeping all the gunk in the ferment helps somehow - but I have never tried the other side of it.

Under normal circumstances (even when I drink fresh pressed) I shake up the sediment to bring it back into suspension and drink it, or add to the fermenter like that. I know I read articles in the newspaper that claimed that the sediment from fresh pressed cider is very healthy, though not sure if that is the case when it starts fermenting. I assumed it might have nutrients to help the ferment though. Purely conjecture though!

CvilleKevin · Oct 19, 2011

The spys have some tartness, but man it would be cool to have a bunch of crab apples.

Will Hewe's Crab grow in your area? They would be a great addition to your orchard. Good tanin, acid and high sugar. Also large for a crab so you can pick a bushel in a reasonable amount of time.

Those are the breaks when you are at the whim of your supplier (hence why have have planted my own mini orchard with about 35 trees - now the wait).

I've been tempted to do that as well, although I dont have much space. Fortunately several of the local orchards are picking up on the popularity of cider apples and planting more varieties. Hopefully within a few years they will be able to keep up with demand.

I am interested to see how this turns out. It sort of goes against my thought that keeping all the gunk in the ferment helps somehow

Yeah, clearing the cider beforehand is counter-intuitive to me as well, but having seen the results I figured I'd give it a shot. Not sure if I accomplished anything on this round tho, because they didnt clear much after 5 days in the fridge.

It will be interesting to see how well the ciders from the most recent pressing clear compared to the previous pressing. All of these apple types (Stayman, Gala, Fuji and Winesap) are ones that I've used before and they've cleared well after fermentation, although it occurs to me that it is relatively early in the season for all of these apples except for the Gala. For the last pressing, most of the apples I used were later in their respective seasons and probably riper, which may have been why they cleared so well.

OTOH, while ripeness may account for some of difference in clearing, the amount of water they got while ripening could also make a difference. Last year the ciders were tougher to clear than usual, even with similar apples, picked at about the same time. That summer ended a lot dryer than normal, which may have had effect as well. This year we had good rains at the end of the summer so hopefully that will bode well for clearing of the cider post-ferment.

Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

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