Ok I am quite confused. I have been reading posts that people are fermenting there ales in primary for two , Three, Four weeks. I do not understand? I make beer quite often about twice a month I brew. I only do allgrain batch sparge method. But when I am done colling down my wort I pitch the yeast and let it ferment for seven days in primary. Then I put it into a glass Carboy for seven Days. I keg and force carb. Why would I leave it in the primary so long. It kind of aggravates me of all the people who are too lazy to rack into a secondary. No offence dont offer me that beer to try. Any thing past seven days for a ALE in a primary is foolish.......
WHY Not Secondary
- Thread starter Dilligans
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bwomp313
Well-Known Member
Uh oh. Here comes the storm...
Beezy
Well-Known Member
It's not laziness. Primary is just not necessary and can introduce oxygen unnecessarily which means the beer might not age well. If you just keg everything I am sure the beer is well gone before it gets to that point. It's just an optional thing IMO.
Bernie Brewer
Grouchy Old Fart
It is not laziness. A lot of us are finding that it is simply not necessary, especially for ales. Before you knock it, why don't you try it and see for yourself if it makes a difference? THEN you can criticize
thegerm
Well-Known Member
autolysis isn't as much of a problem as thought previously. Also every time you transfer the beer you pick up oxygen.
foolish... that's strong language for a homebrewing forum.
foolish... that's strong language for a homebrewing forum.
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
Nothing to do with being lazy, it's all about being patient. When you don't have a fermentation chamber, and you need to let the yeast cleanup after itself, time is your best ally. When you want to have a brew be really clear in glass, you can get the same effect from a long primary that you get with racking to another vessel. Simply combine the two time frames into one, and leave it the F alone for the duration.
Another factor, often mentioned, is the reduced risk of contamination you have with leaving it in primary for the duration.
Personally, I racked my first two brews, and they were not great. They were good, and better than I would buy, but not nearly as good as batches made after that, with long primaries.
I WILL rack to another vessel when aging for an extended period, or over elements that it makes sense to. I won't do it as a default process though.
I also have plenty of primary fermenters (5 currently) that are in the 6.6-7.75 gallon range (all sanke kegs). I also have five aging vessels for use (one being a corny keg that I can also change the lid on and carbonate in).
In the end, I pull a sample of the brew, both to get a FG and to taste it. IF it doesn't taste ready for bottle/keg/drinking, it stays in primary. As long as it tastes ready, and the gravity is where it should be, it goes to keg (these days).
Also, I don't cold crash, or use gelatine to clarify my brews. I have yet to make a batch that I've felt needed such treatment. I might in the future, but I'll have to have the hardware to do either, which I currently don't have.
Another factor, often mentioned, is the reduced risk of contamination you have with leaving it in primary for the duration.
Personally, I racked my first two brews, and they were not great. They were good, and better than I would buy, but not nearly as good as batches made after that, with long primaries.
I WILL rack to another vessel when aging for an extended period, or over elements that it makes sense to. I won't do it as a default process though.
I also have plenty of primary fermenters (5 currently) that are in the 6.6-7.75 gallon range (all sanke kegs). I also have five aging vessels for use (one being a corny keg that I can also change the lid on and carbonate in).
In the end, I pull a sample of the brew, both to get a FG and to taste it. IF it doesn't taste ready for bottle/keg/drinking, it stays in primary. As long as it tastes ready, and the gravity is where it should be, it goes to keg (these days).
Also, I don't cold crash, or use gelatine to clarify my brews. I have yet to make a batch that I've felt needed such treatment. I might in the future, but I'll have to have the hardware to do either, which I currently don't have.
Dilligans
Well-Known Member
well I dont know....... It might be I am new to this and every time I go to the homebrew shops they tell me to secondary. When I was brewing extract a few years back I would not use a secondary. the only time now I dont use a secondary is on wheat beers.. sorry about the strong word
Sounds like someone's being a troll.....All the info of why we do it has been posted repeatedly, including the recommendations of John Palmer and Jamil about it.
If you really care to know the reasons why, instead of just calling folks lazy, read this thread-To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In .
But believe what you want or not...it's your beer.
*shrug*
If you really care to know the reasons why, instead of just calling folks lazy, read this thread-To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In .
But believe what you want or not...it's your beer.
*shrug*
You ever hear the saying "you can't teach a dog new tricks?" Lot of folks, especially those who work in hb shops, often don't keep up on all the latest discussions and trends, or already think they know it all....But even BYO magazine and podcasts, as well as the afore mentioned Jamil, and Palmer, have all covered this. Just like anything else things evolve, and new trends emerge, but just because the beliefs have changed, doesn't mean EVERYONE's caught up to it.
Primary for 2 weeks, then secondary IS the old method.....Primary for 4 weeks and no secondary is the "other" acceptable method.
One week is just not enough time, no matter how you play it. The problem is, contrary to what you might think, yeast can't read recipes, or follow calendars, so they don't know when they are supposed to be done, and have their own timeframe.
So you can't choose how long you ferment your beer. And following the 1-2-3 rule is, or arbitrarily moving the beer afte a week, is plain silly with the normal 72 hours lagtime you often get (as mentioned it the sticky in the beginner's section)they may only actually be fermenting for 3 or 4 days before someone arbitrarily moves the beer...that leads to stuck fermentations, krausens in secondaries and those dreaded off flavors (because the yeast hasn't had a chance to clean up after their own byproducts of fermentation, if you move them before they get to that point in their life cycle- which is the true secondary phase, the cleanup phase.)
You determine when to rack (if you choose to) by taking two consequetive HYDROMETER readings over a three day period. If the gravity is the same, then it is finished fermenting.
I recommend folks don't even take their first one til day 12 and the next one on day 14 and then rack to secondary if you are choosing to go the secondary route. That way you do get some of the clean up time that you get from having contact with the greatest amount of yeast, which will get rid of the byproducts of fermentation (such as diacetyl) and make sure fermentation is actually complete so you don't get a stuck fermentation.
makomachine
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Howdy and welcome to HBT.
Do you have data to say this is foolish? My best beer to date was a brown ale in the primary for two months before bottling. It scored a 45 at a BJCP comp.
Do I attribute the 2-month primary as the sole reason for the score? Of course not. But it certainly didn't hurt...
bambrew
Active Member
Just to add my opinion, since I started listening to jamil before I ever brewed my first beer, I have never used a secondary fermenter. It is a major reason why I feel that I have made good tasting beer right from the start. When I first started I didn't really truly understand all about how bad oxygen is for the fermented beer. But by just giving the viable healthy yeast enough time to do their thing, the beer has always benefited. And thus me, who consumes the beer.
I do secondary BUT only because my primaries will not fit into my beer fridge for cold crashing..And it is usually after 3 weeks+ in primary.... Here is what I cannot figure out, Granted I honestly believe that given MY racking methods I get more and clearer beer using a secondary. BUT how can 1 week in primary and 2 weeks in secondary be ANY DIFFERENT than 3 weeks in primary? What do people believe is magical about moving the beer over to a new container?
Do folks seriously think that by moving it, MORE suspended materials fall out?
Do folks seriously think that by moving it, MORE suspended materials fall out?
n240sxguy
Well-Known Member
Granted I haven't been brewing a long time; but I think the reason they say to go one week in primary, and then another week in secondary, is to get it away from the yeast and trub in the primary. I guess a lot of people still believe the yeast break down really fast and start contaminating your beer. I started with extract 2 years ago with a kit from Midwest. I had some decent beers, and a couple that just sucked. I did my first two AG batches a week ago. Patience has never been my strong suit. I don't think I ever let any of my beers age long enough before or after bottling. By the time they started getting better, they were all gone. After reading the amazing advice on here of people who have been doing this much longer than me, I'm gonna primary for 4 weeks, and bottle condition for another 4 before I even touch it.
Germelli1
Well-Known Member
ZOMG You BATCH sparge? Please don't offer me one of THOSE beers if you are too lazy to fly sparge!
Germelli1 said:
Germelli, if you are too lazy to grow and malt your own barley, please keep your beer to yourself
Germelli, if you are too lazy to grow and malt your own barley, please keep your beer to yourself
+1
Pappers_ said:Germelli, if you are too lazy to grow and malt your own barley, please keep your beer to yourself
I only drink beer made with homegrown barley and hops, self-malted grains, and water that is not just built up with brewing salts, but that the brewer carved out of a glacier in the far north, and transported via a dog sled not only built by said brewer, but he/she must have also bred the sled dogs from wolves that they originally trapped themselves.
The grain must be crushed by hand - literally. They must be picked up one at a time and the husk manually cracked in half (if it breaks any more than that, it must be thrown out... astringency is unacceptable)
Of course, a minimum of a quadruple decoction is a must - if even a single step is skipped or done by infusion, the beer will obviously taste like crap. Fly-sparging is a given, and naturally, it cannot be done too quickly - 1quart/hour is ideal for a 5gal batch.
It goes without saying that the wort must be boiled over a fire started with nothing more than wood and friction, in a kettle that you forged yourself out of metal that you personally mined and smelted. The only acceptable boil timer is the position of the sun.
Yeast must be pitched EXACTLY at the proper rate, as determined by a cell count. And I don't mean the lazy method typically used as described by Chris White, as that just gives you a ballpark figure, even if it comes pretty close - EVERY SINGLE CELL must be counted. The strain must be personally caught from the wild, and be selectively bred for the absolutely ideal characteristics for the style being brewed, and cultured/propagated from a single, properly-maintained cell every time you brew.
Temperature must be precisely maintained using nothing but an air-conditioner and your own body heat.
And if all you've done is secondary the beer, forget about it. Conditioning the beer in a tertiary and quaternary fermentor (at a minimum) is critical. And lastly, the beer must be bottle-conditioned, with each HAND-BLOWN bottle individually primed using a mixture of sugar you derived from beets and sugar cane that you grew, maple syrup you produced from sap you collected from trees grown from seeds you planted, and honey you harvest from your own apiary.
I mean, it's cool if you don't want to put in just a tiny bit more effort into making beer that at least has a chance of being decent... to each their own. But don't you dare try and pawn that crap off on me.
The best beer I ever made sat in the primary for 3 months. I was rewarded for my laziness!
Dilligans
Well-Known Member
Ok... I am convinced... I believed the guy at the homebrew shop but look... YOu all seem to be doing something right so I got a AG brew sitting in the primary right now that I will be lazy about.
whiskeyjack
Well-Known Member
The only time I would secondary is if I were brewing a barleywine or something similar that will sit for 6-9 months. Then I would primary it for 4 to 6 weeks and then add it to my glass carboy for the remaining time.
Seven
Well-Known Member
Just try both methods (secondary, no secondary) and see what works best for you. I am firmly in the no-secondary camp because it's less work and less chance to expose the beer to potential infection and/or oxidation.
When I was a new brewer I thought I would secondary everything. I quickly learned that (for me) secondaries weren't necessary. It's all about what works best for you.
There is nothing "wrong" with a secondary, other than the slight chance of introducing O2 or bacteria into the batch, but if you are as careful as you should be when racking, then it's a non-issue.
Personally, I enjoy no secondary for everything except the very big beers. My best batch was one that I did not secondary (unless you count the dry hop) and no-chilled (unless you count sticking the BK in a snowbank overnight).
I think that batch was in primary for about 6 weeks.
Personally, I enjoy no secondary for everything except the very big beers. My best batch was one that I did not secondary (unless you count the dry hop) and no-chilled (unless you count sticking the BK in a snowbank overnight).
I think that batch was in primary for about 6 weeks.
WOW Emjay !! That took longer to think up and type than it would take you to brew 5 more gallons of BEER !!
I have a strange feeling that we would never get to the point in conversation where I'd even consider offering you a beer. You're safe
Emjay... bravo!
I hope you got more than just my thumbs up for that one!
I hope you got more than just my thumbs up for that one!
yellowthere
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Personally I find people that only secondary a beer to be distguistingly lazy. I rack my beer every single 4 hours whether it makes sense or not. I have no job, no family or no one that will return my calls, so naturally this is the best practice that I've come up with. So what if it makes no sense? I believe in octonary, nonary, denary fermentations and BEYOND!!!!!! Why aren't you racking RIGHT NOW!!!!
Unless your wort is fermenting in a vacuum-powered closed infinity loop, suspended in an equilibrium tank, don't even think about offering me that crap. Hell, I dry hopped my last porter with kryptonite that I forced Superman to personally deliver to me.
I start fermentation by using a 12ga loaded with yeast grenades. I ferment my lagers in frozen mammoths 3 miles below the ice in Greenland. Ales? I leave that nonsense to Arthur Guinness. I use 37 lbs of hops in a five gallon batch. I shot the guy who proved you can't get 100ibus into a beer. I once brewed a 1ml batch of 1.200 OG beer with 67,000 ibus all from dry hopping. My beers are so clear you can match fingerprints through them. My last primary was so long I had to go back in time to start it. You call that lazy? No need to sanitize, I brew my beers in space where there's nothing that can infect them. If you don't bottle your beers in your enemies' polished skulls, you're a straight b$tch. Oh yeah, forced carbing is the way to go with CO2 captured by squeezing redwoods before they can turn it into oxygen, with my bare hands. I got a lifetime supply of isinglass from the Loch Ness monster's bladder... sorry Monster Quest, I should have told you. I scream at my hop plants for 8 hours a day to make them not only bitter, but pissed off. My dopplebock is yellow and clear and comes in a color-changing aluminum can... and still wins every ALE category at GABF, every year. Budweiser asked me if they could change their name to Airborneweiser, and I said no.
Forget about offering me one of your beers. IF you do, I'll ferment my puke and beat you in any category you want... you choose.
I start fermentation by using a 12ga loaded with yeast grenades. I ferment my lagers in frozen mammoths 3 miles below the ice in Greenland. Ales? I leave that nonsense to Arthur Guinness. I use 37 lbs of hops in a five gallon batch. I shot the guy who proved you can't get 100ibus into a beer. I once brewed a 1ml batch of 1.200 OG beer with 67,000 ibus all from dry hopping. My beers are so clear you can match fingerprints through them. My last primary was so long I had to go back in time to start it. You call that lazy? No need to sanitize, I brew my beers in space where there's nothing that can infect them. If you don't bottle your beers in your enemies' polished skulls, you're a straight b$tch. Oh yeah, forced carbing is the way to go with CO2 captured by squeezing redwoods before they can turn it into oxygen, with my bare hands. I got a lifetime supply of isinglass from the Loch Ness monster's bladder... sorry Monster Quest, I should have told you. I scream at my hop plants for 8 hours a day to make them not only bitter, but pissed off. My dopplebock is yellow and clear and comes in a color-changing aluminum can... and still wins every ALE category at GABF, every year. Budweiser asked me if they could change their name to Airborneweiser, and I said no.
Forget about offering me one of your beers. IF you do, I'll ferment my puke and beat you in any category you want... you choose.
bwomp313
Well-Known Member
quite humbling
Secondary is good for throwing in some fruit or other spices but otherwise it's just another container to clean. If you're aging a strong ale, barley wine, or something like that then I'd just rack it to a keg for a few months.
Most normal beer styles including just about every category will be just fine on the primary yeast for 3 weeks.
Most normal beer styles including just about every category will be just fine on the primary yeast for 3 weeks.
