Lost some yeast, fermentation very slow. Any advice?

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Trippel-A

Trippel-A

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This bourbon barrel--well, bourbon-soaked oak cubes--porter was our first use of White Labs liquid yeast (WLP028-Edinburgh Ale). We almost always use Wyeast smack packs.

Anyway, the label said to shake vigorously and open carefully. We did, and promptly lost at least half of the vial contents. I think we missed something in the instructions.

We put what was left into a DME starter, even though we were planning to brew then and pitch in a couple hours. Of course, this wasn't enough time, but we thought it would be better than nothing.

So, we brewed, pitched, and fermentation appears very slow. There's a krausen, but no airlock bubbling that I've witnessed. It's been over 4 days.

Should I slosh to aerate? Just wait? Get another vial of yeast to pitch? If I do that, should I ignore the instructions to shake the vial?
 
You probably under pitched. What was the gravity of the beer? If it was about or over 1.050, one vile is technically under pitching yet alone half of one.

I would've pitched a new vile, but air lock activity is never a good sign. You need to take a gravity reading to see if any sugar has been converted.

Problem with under pitching is yeast strain and off flavors, stalled fermentation or long lag time, and possibly incomplete fermentation.

The reason you shake is to get the yeast back in suspension. The yeast often cakes up and sticks to the bottom of the vile. And since yeast produces co2, it can often explode out when opened quickly after shaking.
 
If you have krausen, it's fermenting. I'd just let it go to completion. I suspect you have underpitched but you will still have beer that is quite drinkable, just not the premium beer you wanted. At this point, aerating your beer will just lead to oxidation.
 
With the white labs vials, I always loosen the lid to relieve the pressure then retighten as soon as they come out of the fridge and intend to pitch. Then I repeatedly shake, loosen and tighten as the vial warms to room temp. Sort of a PITA, but repeating this process in baby steps avoids the spectacular eruption I experienced the first time I used their product!
 
Thanks, all. I'm certain we underpitched, given what happened. And it's moderately high gravity: 1.063. We should have made a starter a few days ahead, but one of my friends ordered the kit, and all the gear is at my place.

It's fermenting--just very slowly. Would it be worth it to order another vial and make a second pitch more than a week after the first? I don't think the LHBS carries WL yeast.

Since using the WL vials is such a pain, is there something that makes it worth it? Is it better than Wyeast's stuff?
 
Just an update. After two weeks, SG is down from 1.063 to 1.027. There are still some small floating yeast masses on top, and I gently stirred a little up from the bottom, in hopes it might help. We'll see.

One thing I also might try is moving it to a warmer part of the house.
 
Trippel-A said:
Just an update. After two weeks, SG is down from 1.063 to 1.027. There are still some small floating yeast masses on top, and I gently stirred a little up from the bottom, in hopes it might help. We'll see.

One thing I also might try is moving it to a warmer part of the house.
Click to expand...

Two more weeks, and I'm down to 1.023. I think I'm going to need to pitch again.
 
Trippel-A said:
Two more weeks, and I'm down to 1.023. I think I'm going to need to pitch again.
Click to expand...

How did you mash? Any chance of a lot of unfermentables in there?

So basically you've underpitched and within a month attenuation is approximately 67,5% (yeast data sheet says to expect 70-75%)..

1023 is not terrible for a porter-style beer (although it may be sweeter than you planned)..
 
Hjandersen said:
How did you mash? Any chance of a lot of unfermentables in there?

So basically you've underpitched and within a month attenuation is approximately 67,5% (yeast data sheet says to expect 70-75%)..

1023 is not terrible for a porter-style beer (although it may be sweeter than you planned)..
Click to expand...

This is an extract, so that's not the problem. I don't want any bottle bombs. We plan to share them at Christmas, and I can't tell everybody to keep it in the fridge to prevent an explosion.

I bought more yeast (Wyeast Scotch Ale this time) and pitched it last night.

Aaron
 
Trippel-A said:
I bought more yeast (Wyeast Scotch Ale this time) and pitched it last night.
Click to expand...

Did you make a starter with this new tube and pitch it at high krausen???

Just tossing the contents of the tube into the fermentor is very unreliable and may not work at all. The lack of oxygen and presence of alcohol in your semi-fermented beer makes for a very harsh environment for new yeast.
 
g-star said:
Did you make a starter with this new tube and pitch it at high krausen???

Just tossing the contents of the tube into the fermentor is very unreliable and may not work at all. The lack of oxygen and presence of alcohol in your semi-fermented beer makes for a very harsh environment for new yeast.
Click to expand...

And this is why I was asking for advice...

No, I wanted to make a starter, but my flask was broken a couple weeks ago by some careless contractors in the basement. All I can say is that I used Wyeast 1728, which is supposed to tolerate up to 12% ABV. http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=143

I'll just cross my fingers.
 
UPDATE: After pitching a smack pack of Wyeast 1728 (no starter, my flask is broken) and waiting three more weeks, SG has barely moved. Down one or two points from 1.023 to 1021-1.022. Apparent attenuation is 63%, instead of the 69-73% that it's supposed to be. :smack:

If we make a starter with yet another smack pack, any chance we can fix this?

This recipe, NB's bourbon barrel porter, calls for the addition of oak cubes and 16oz bourbon, which will make an even harsher environment for yeast. We haven't done this yet.

If we can't get any more fermentation out of this batch, and we add the bourbon, what are the chances that we'll ultimately have bottle bombs? This was an extract batch, so there are still fermentable sugars in there. But the yeast appear to be kaput.

On the flip side, what are the chances that this won't even carbonate in the bottles?

I don't want to throw away this batch, but I also don't want bottle bombs. This has been a very frustrating experience, and I'd really appreciate any advice on how to save it.
 
Trippel-A said:
And this is why I was asking for advice...

No, I wanted to make a starter, but my flask was broken a couple weeks ago by some careless contractors in the basement. All I can say is that I used Wyeast 1728, which is supposed to tolerate up to 12% ABV. http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=143

I'll just cross my fingers.
Click to expand...


Got a quart jar? How about a gallon jug? An old glass coffee pot like from a Mr. Coffee? Use one of those to make a starter. If you have a stir plate you may find that the quart jar or gallon jug may not work with it but you can still do the pitch and shake and get a decent starter. The glass coffee pots have a flat bottom and are reported to work nearly as well as a flask.
 
Here's advice direct from JZ, taken from another thread:


"Create a new stir-plate 3000ml starter. The large starter has be able to quickly ferment under adverse conditions so it has to be large. Oxygenate the starter before seeding with 1 vial, oxygenate it again at 8 hrs, and after high krausen has subsided oxygenate it a third time. Crash the starter to flocc. Take out of chill and pour off almost all of the starter beer and let the temp normalize to your primary temp. Pitch and stir in *very* gently. In 1-2 days a slow fermentation will resume. Monitor until you reach FG 1.012. Probably another week to 10 days."

Hope you have a stir plate, pure O2, and some time to finish this off correctly.
 
g-star said:
Here's advice direct from JZ, taken from another thread:

"Create a new stir-plate 3000ml starter. The large starter has be able to quickly ferment under adverse conditions so it has to be large. Oxygenate the starter before seeding with 1 vial, oxygenate it again at 8 hrs, and after high krausen has subsided oxygenate it a third time. Crash the starter to flocc. Take out of chill and pour off almost all of the starter beer and let the temp normalize to your primary temp. Pitch and stir in *very* gently. In 1-2 days a slow fermentation will resume. Monitor until you reach FG 1.012. Probably another week to 10 days."

Hope you have a stir plate, pure O2, and some time to finish this off correctly.
Click to expand...

No stir plate, no oxygenation stone nor cylinder, and no budget to spend on myself before Christmas. I can probably replace the flask and do a multi-step starter to get the largest pitch I can. As for time, there is no way this will be ready for Christmas now, so we probably have time.
 
Trippel-A said:
UPDATE: After pitching a smack pack of Wyeast 1728 (no starter, my flask is broken) and waiting three more weeks, SG has barely moved. Down one or two points from 1.023 to 1021-1.022. Apparent attenuation is 63%, instead of the 69-73% that it's supposed to be. :smack:

If we make a starter with yet another smack pack, any chance we can fix this?

This recipe, NB's bourbon barrel porter, calls for the addition of oak cubes and 16oz bourbon, which will make an even harsher environment for yeast. We haven't done this yet.

If we can't get any more fermentation out of this batch, and we add the bourbon, what are the chances that we'll ultimately have bottle bombs? This was an extract batch, so there are still fermentable sugars in there. But the yeast appear to be kaput.

On the flip side, what are the chances that this won't even carbonate in the bottles?

I don't want to throw away this batch, but I also don't want bottle bombs. This has been a very frustrating experience, and I'd really appreciate any advice on how to save it.
Click to expand...

Did you make sure to temp correct your hydro reading?

Sounds like it's going to end up being the world's most expensive beer with all these yeast additions :cross:

I'd suspect the problem is the lack of enough healthy yeast initially, then pitching new yeast in with no starter.

A) the depletion of oxygen could've stalled the second addition of yeast
B) the vile of the second could've been old or not 100% healthy and could've technically been under pitched again.

I would toss in a packet of us05 any call it a day... especially if I didn't have the money or equipment to do the starter.
 
insanim8er said:
Did you make sure to temp correct your hydro reading?

Sounds like it's going to end up being the world's most expensive beer with all these yeast additions :cross:

I'd suspect the problem is the lack of enough healthy yeast initially, then pitching new yeast in with no starter.

A) the depletion of oxygen could've stalled the second addition of yeast
B) the vile of the second could've been old or not 100% healthy and could've technically been under pitched again.

I would toss in a packet of us05 any call it a day... especially if I didn't have the money or equipment to do the starter.
Click to expand...

Yes, I temp-corrected.

With regard to the second pitch, it's probably possibility A. I used a Wyeast smack pack on the second pitch. It swelled immediately, which tends to indicate viability.

The primary reason I want to use the Scottish Ale yeast again is because it's supposed to be tolerant of high alcohol content.

Yes, this one is going to be expensive. We haven't bought the bourbon yet, either.
 
Trippel-A said:
Yes, I temp-corrected.

With regard to the second pitch, it's probably possibility A. I used a Wyeast smack pack on the second pitch. It swelled immediately, which tends to indicate viability.

The primary reason I want to use the Scottish Ale yeast again is because it's supposed to be tolerant of high alcohol content.

Yes, this one is going to be expensive. We haven't bought the bourbon yet, either.
Click to expand...

Us05 has a tolerance of 12%
 
To the OP;

Yes, the vials usually explode whenh first opened. If shaken after warming its even worse. Here's what I do, which partially helps:

1. While still chilled, open part way to release pressure ( no shaking)

2. Repeat step 1 until you can remove the cap compeltely without foaming. Replace cap loosely.

3. Let the yeast flocculate to the bottom of the tube, and pour off half of the starter beer.

4.Warm and shake to get all the yeast into suspension. Sanitize the outside of the tube.

5. Open the tube over the receiving vessel (sauce pan of cooled wort, fermenter, etc) to catch the "foaming" yeast.

Pouring off part of the starter beer increases head space and decreases the amount of co2 that goes back into suspension.
 
william_shakes_beer said:
To the OP;

Yes, the vials usually explode whenh first opened. If shaken after warming its even worse. Here's what I do, which partially helps:

1. While still chilled, open part way to release pressure ( no shaking)

2. Repeat step 1 until you can remove the cap compeltely without foaming. Replace cap loosely.

3. Let the yeast flocculate to the bottom of the tube, and pour off half of the starter beer.

4.Warm and shake to get all the yeast into suspension. Sanitize the outside of the tube.

5. Open the tube over the receiving vessel (sauce pan of cooled wort, fermenter, etc) to catch the "foaming" yeast.

Pouring off part of the starter beer increases head space and decreases the amount of co2 that goes back into suspension.
Click to expand...

Thanks! So, when do you start this process, particularly to leave time for step 3? The night before brew day/starter day?
 
i may have missed it but what temp are you fermenting at? Did you try warming up a bit to see if it'd get going?
 
insanim8er said:
Us05 has a tolerance of 12%
Click to expand...

That would be cheaper. Thanks! I assume I should still make a starter, given the circumstance, yes?

I realized last night I can use my one-gallon jug for experimental batch splits to make a starter.
 
ksyrium said:
i may have missed it but what temp are you fermenting at? Did you try warming up a bit to see if it'd get going?
Click to expand...

I was fermenting in the 60's, and I moved it to a warmer room. Now it's been right around 70 for a few weeks, which hasn't made a noticeable difference.
 
Trippel-A said:
That would be cheaper. Thanks! I assume I should still make a starter, given the circumstance, yes?

I realized last night I can use my one-gallon jug for experimental batch splits to make a starter.
Click to expand...

You know... that's a good question. I don't have a solid answer. Hopefully someone can chime in for you.

Normally you don't make a starter with dry yeast because pitching dry yeast is like pitching a starter. The yeast are dried with energy reserves.

With that said ... If I were to GUESS - I'd say pitch it dry or hydrate it per the instructions, but don't actually make a starter.

The thing I am uncertain about is the lack of oxygen in your existing wort. I have a feeling hydrating the yeast and pitching will be enough to get you down the couple points you need.
 
insanim8er said:
You know... that's a good question. I don't have a solid answer. Hopefully someone can chime in for you.

Normally you don't make a starter with dry yeast because pitching dry yeast is like pitching a starter. The yeast are dried with energy reserves.

With that said ... If I were to GUESS - I'd say pitch it dry or hydrate it per the instructions, but don't actually make a starter.

The thing I am uncertain about is the lack of oxygen in your existing wort. I have a feeling hydrating the yeast and pitching will be enough to get you down the couple points you need.
Click to expand...

From a biology stand point it would make sense to rehydrate as described and the n in x steps acclimatize the rehydrated yeast to the wort..

E.g. rehydrate as described but in 300 m - wait and stir as required
1. Ad 60 ml "wort" to make a 20% solution (wait an hour)
2 Ad 90 ml "wort" to make a 50% solution (wait an hour)
Etc.. and then pitch the yeast without shocking it from any of the undesirable conditions in the wort..

I have absolutely now solid evidence that this would be more effective than just pitching rehydrated yeast, but I'd properly give it a try..
 
Hjandersen said:
From a biology stand point it would make sense to rehydrate as described and the n in x steps acclimatize the rehydrated yeast to the wort..

E.g. rehydrate as described but in 300 m - wait and stir as required
1. Ad 60 ml "wort" to make a 20% solution (wait an hour)
2 Ad 90 ml "wort" to make a 50% solution (wait an hour)
Etc.. and then pitch the yeast without shocking it from any of the undesirable conditions in the wort..

I have absolutely now solid evidence that this would be more effective than just pitching rehydrated yeast, but I'd properly give it a try..
Click to expand...

Wow, thanks! I'll give it a try. Not much to lose at this point.
 
RM-MN said:
. At this point, aerating your beer will just lead to oxidation.
Click to expand...

This is not necessarily true. If the yeast is still alive and active and still reproducing, it will consume the oxygen. If the beer is really lagging, I dont think it will hurt at all.

FYI, according to JZ, almost all yeast strains will tolerated up to 12% if treated properly.

To the OP,
If you are going to use liquid yeast (of any brand) then you really need to take the extra steps to make it happy. Dry yeast is great...sanitize the packet, rehydrate in some warm water, pitch into your batch...or like too many people do pitch from the packet to the fermenter. But liquid yeast is much different. It's more vulnerable then the dry yeast packets and you need to take that into account.

There's 3 things that you should (not need...you can skip them and make beer, but it wont be optimal) always do when using liquid yeast.

1) Make sure you are pitching the minimum recommended amount of yeast for your batch. Most homebrewers underpitch their beer when using liquid yeast. Use brewing software like Beersmith, or look on websites like mrmalty.com for a yeast pitching calculator.
For this batch you stated a OG of 1.063; according to mrmalty.com you should have pitched about 230 billion cells. Both White Labs and Wyeast both ship liquid yeast at about 100 billion cells per pack/vial at the time they ship from the factory (they loose about 20% viability per month after that even if they are stored under ideal conditions) meaning you would need over 2 full vials for a 5 gallon batch. So, yeah, I think you under-pitched. BTW, you would only need one vial/pack with a 1 liter starter on a stir plate to get the same count.

2) Make sure you oxygenate you wort before pitching (and even after for larger batches.) I would recommend getting a pure oxygen system with a diffusion stone (this is the best method to get the recommended amount of oxygen in solution), if not then an air pump with in-line HEPA filter, and lastly if you cant get either make sure you shake the crap out of that wort for a very long time. I mean shake it every time you see that carboy/bucket until you see a krausen. Yeast need that oxygen to reproduce and get the healthy fermentation you want.

3) Finally, as part of your starter or at least you boil, make sure you use yeast nutrients.

Yeast make your beer, and the yeast (and specifically the fermentation) is the most important part of making a good beer. If you want to use liquid yeast, and make a great beer, you have to take the extra steps to make sure you have enough yeast, and that that yeast is healty.

Hope this helps.
 
05m50dan said:
This is not necessarily true. If the yeast is still alive and active and still reproducing, it will consume the oxygen. If the beer is really lagging, I dont think it will hurt at all.

FYI, according to JZ, almost all yeast strains will tolerated up to 12% if treated properly.

To the OP,
If you are going to use liquid yeast (of any brand) then you really need to take the extra steps to make it happy. Dry yeast is great...sanitize the packet, rehydrate in some warm water, pitch into your batch...or like too many people do pitch from the packet to the fermenter. But liquid yeast is much different. It's more vulnerable then the dry yeast packets and you need to take that into account.

There's 3 things that you should (not need...you can skip them and make beer, but it wont be optimal) always do when using liquid yeast.

1) Make sure you are pitching the minimum recommended amount of yeast for your batch. Most homebrewers underpitch their beer when using liquid yeast. Use brewing software like Beersmith, or look on websites like mrmalty.com for a yeast pitching calculator.
For this batch you stated a OG of 1.063; according to mrmalty.com you should have pitched about 230 billion cells. Both White Labs and Wyeast both ship liquid yeast at about 100 billion cells per pack/vial at the time they ship from the factory (they loose about 20% viability per month after that even if they are stored under ideal conditions) meaning you would need over 2 full vials for a 5 gallon batch. So, yeah, I think you under-pitched. BTW, you would only need one vial/pack with a 1 liter starter on a stir plate to get the same count.

2) Make sure you oxygenate you wort before pitching (and even after for larger batches.) I would recommend getting a pure oxygen system with a diffusion stone (this is the best method to get the recommended amount of oxygen in solution), if not then an air pump with in-line HEPA filter, and lastly if you cant get either make sure you shake the crap out of that wort for a very long time. I mean shake it every time you see that carboy/bucket until you see a krausen. Yeast need that oxygen to reproduce and get the healthy fermentation you want.

3) Finally, as part of your starter or at least you boil, make sure you use yeast nutrients.

Yeast make your beer, and the yeast (and specifically the fermentation) is the most important part of making a good beer. If you want to use liquid yeast, and make a great beer, you have to take the extra steps to make sure you have enough yeast, and that that yeast is healty.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I guess what that means is that I can't use liquid yeast if the ingredients aren't coming to my house a few days in advance--i.e. if my brew buddies are bringing the ingredients over with them on brew day. And I put the Williams Brewing aeration wand on my Christmas list!

This is slightly :off:, but its my thread, so hey. What is the value proposition of liquid yeast? It's more vulnerable and more work than dry yeast, so why am I paying at least twice the price, if not more? I understand that it's more expensive to sell, and expires faster, therefore is costlier to the producers and distributors to inventory and transport. But pricing should match either actual or perceived value, NOT cost.

In this case, is the value actual (meaning there is a real benefit from dealing with the headaches of liquid yeast) or perceived?
 
I only use liquid when there is no dry strain equivalent.

There are more varities of liquid. It is nonsensical, to me, to pay $7.50 (cost of WL at my LHBS) for dead bang plain ole basic American ale WL 001 or WY 1056 when you can get a pack of US 05.
Twice the yeast and no need to a starter, just rehydrate.
cheers!
 
Liquid yeast are a great product, and like the above poster stated, there are many more varieties of liquid yeast than for dry. You cant make a Kolsh without that particular yeast, and there are no dry versions that I know of. This is true for many other strains.
Plus, the actual culture is much more pure than the dry yeast, meaning you can re-use that yeast more than you can with dry yeasts. Most professional brewers order a pitchable amount of yeast for their system and then use the yeast from that batch for another 10-20 (or more) batches of beer before ordering another pitch. Homebrewers can do this at home under the right conditions. I dont often make beer that uses the same type of yeast back to back like that, but I have gotten a 6-batch chain done once.
Then there is yeast banking. I currently have about 7 strains of liquid yeast available at home, cultured to small vials. There is more start-up cost with this, and more plan ahead for propagating up to pitchable amounts, but now, I dont spend any more money on yeast then I would to make the starters I would have anyway.
Liquid yeast is a great product, people just dont get enough information to make the best of it until they do their own research. I recommend the Yeast book from Brewers Publications from Chris White from Whitelabs, and Jamil Z., from the Brewing Network. It's a great book for learing about all this. I also learned a lot from trolling these forums. The people here, though sometimes wrong yet well meaning, are very helpful.
 
I don't have any specific references to scientific journals or anything, but the process of drying the yeast is not completely sterile. That is why dry yeast has had such a bad reputation for so long. The processes have become significantly better, allowing less bacteria into the product, but it is not a completely pure source. This is what I have heard from people in the business, not my personal experience.
That said, the only craft brewery I have heard that uses dry yeast doesn't take it out as many batches as those that use liquid yeast.
That said, I've used Nottingham on 4 consecutive batches without problem. Just because it's not 100% pure, doesn't mean its unusable. The yeast cell count is so high it out-competes anything else. The problem is, bacteria reproduce much quicker than yeast do, and each consecutive batch has higher and higher bacterial counts.
 
05m50dan said:
I don't have any specific references to scientific journals or anything, but the process of drying the yeast is not completely sterile. That is why dry yeast has had such a bad reputation for so long. The processes have become significantly better, allowing less bacteria into the product, but it is not a completely pure source. This is what I have heard from people in the business, not my personal experience.
That said, the only craft brewery I have heard that uses dry yeast doesn't take it out as many batches as those that use liquid yeast.
That said, I've used Nottingham on 4 consecutive batches without problem. Just because it's not 100% pure, doesn't mean its unusable. The yeast cell count is so high it out-competes anything else. The problem is, bacteria reproduce much quicker than yeast do, and each consecutive batch has higher and higher bacterial counts.
Click to expand...

Yeast deformity plays a big role in re-using yeast.
 
So, here's an update. It took me a long time to actually implement Hjandersen's strategy, but I did before Christmas, and it worked. That said, it might have been OK without the US-05, rehydrated and acclimated to the wort, because SG had dropped to 1.017 before I pitched it. Anyway, the gravity is finally down to 1.015, apparent attenuation of 75%! I've racked it on top of the bourbon, oak cubes, and vanilla bean.

It actually didn't taste terrible before I did that, either, which was a bit of a surprise, as my expectations have dropped very low for this one. Maybe the US-05 cleaned it up a little. The smoky porter notes are starting to come through.

Thank you for all your help, and I'll post back with final tasting notes, eventually. :mug:
 
Trippel-A said:
So, here's an update. It took me a long time to actually implement Hjandersen's strategy, but I did before Christmas, and it worked. That said, it might have been OK without the US-05, rehydrated and acclimated to the wort, because SG had dropped to 1.017 before I pitched it. Anyway, the gravity is finally down to 1.015, apparent attenuation of 75%! I've racked it on top of the bourbon, oak cubes, and vanilla bean.

It actually didn't taste terrible before I did that, either, which was a bit of a surprise, as my expectations have dropped very low for this one. Maybe the US-05 cleaned it up a little. The smoky porter notes are starting to come through.

Thank you for all your help, and I'll post back with final tasting notes, eventually. :mug:
Click to expand...

That's great! I'm looking forward to tasting notes. Don't forget to let it attenuate completely before bottling. Also cold crashing is (as always) a good idea!
 

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