Hefeweizen CO2 volume argument

OK, so nearly all print reading I've done says hefeweizen's on average are carbonated to higher CO2 volumes. Palmer's How To Brew book says 3.3 - 4.5 is typical and Eric Warner's German Wheat Beer book says 2.8 - 5.1 volumes. The BJCP style guideline says 2.5 - 2.9 volumes. When I last posted about this everyone balked at the higher CO2 volumes so I'm wondering what the deal is here. Is the typical Franziskaner, Paulaner, Weihenstephan, Schneider Weisse, etc in the higher range or within the BJCP range??

And the other question I have is this: a number of people have said those higher volumes would cause exploding bottles.... well how come my german wheat bottles are all perfectly fine? If one wanted to carb to say 3.0 volumes would a typicla brown german weizen bottle be fine? What about carbing at 4 volumes?

Not trying to argue anything here. I just really would like the record set straight. Weizen's are my top favorite beer so this info is important to me


Rev.

i don't know about anyone else, but when i first got my keezer up and running, I had 5 beers kegged. 2 wheats for the swmbo and 3 beers for me, an irish red, pale ale, black ipa. I had my co2 tank with just one regulator, going into a manifold, then going to each beer. Regulator was set at 12 psi, and call me crazy, but all my beers were perfectly carbed, while the wheats seemed flat. So I cranked up regulator to 18 psi, and sure enough, the wheats where perfect, while my 3 were too stingy on the tongue: over carbed.

So this led me to buy another regulator. One reg. is set at 18 psi and goes into a two valve manifold and is for the wheats. the other reg. goes into 4 way manifold, set at 12 psi, and is for all my beers, and while they are obviously different in CO2 volumes, they seem equally as carbed to me.

so I'd say yeh they need to be higher, but only because in my experience, if wheats are at 12psi and high 30s in temp, they are just plain flat, while other styles aren't.

metaltim said:

I had my co2 tank with just one regulator, going into a manifold, then going to each beer. Regulator was set at 12 psi, and call me crazy, but all my beers were perfectly carbed, while the wheats seemed flat. So I cranked up regulator to 18 psi, and sure enough, the wheats where perfect.

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That's interesting. I haven't read anywhere that hefe's need more carbonation, just that they are carbed to higher volumes. Do you think it's cause you were used to the carbonation of commerical hefe's you'd drank? With all the homebrew hefe's out there in the 2.5 volume area I'd think if it were too low there'd be more mention of it. This is why the whole thing has got me rather confused lol.


Rev.

well I just brewed my first ever home brew. it so happens to be a Hefewiezen. I put it on the keg monday night at 12 PSI at 38F. its carbonated now,but its only been 2 days. I was told it takes a week or so to get fully carb'd. next week if I think it needs more PSI after the 12 psi have equaled out I'll bump it up a little.

-=jason=-

Rev2010 said:

Do you think it's cause you were used to the carbonation of commerical hefe's you'd drank?

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I'd imagine this is the case. Even though it is as carbed, it just doesn't stack up next to a weihenstephaner or other wheat beer that she normally drinks.

Rev2010 said:

OK, so nearly all print reading I've done says hefeweizen's on average are carbonated to higher CO2 volumes. Palmer's How To Brew book says 3.3 - 4.5 is typical and Eric Warner's German Wheat Beer book says 2.8 - 5.1 volumes. The BJCP style guideline says 2.5 - 2.9 volumes. When I last posted about this everyone balked at the higher CO2 volumes so I'm wondering what the deal is here. Is the typical Franziskaner, Paulaner, Weihenstephan, Schneider Weisse, etc in the higher range or within the BJCP range??

And the other question I have is this: a number of people have said those higher volumes would cause exploding bottles.... well how come my german wheat bottles are all perfectly fine? If one wanted to carb to say 3.0 volumes would a typicla brown german weizen bottle be fine? What about carbing at 4 volumes?

Not trying to argue anything here. I just really would like the record set straight. Weizen's are my top favorite beer so this info is important to me


Rev.

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Hefe should be carbed in the 3-4 volume range. Most any of the commercial example you listed are all in that range. That is the range where the beer will be true to style. IMHO hefe tastes best in that range.

You certainly could have exploding bottles in this range. A keg will make life much easier. If you have to carb in bottles, make sure you use heavy duty bottles. Several Belgian imports come in thicker heavy duty bottles.

maida7 said:

You certainly could have exploding bottles in this range. A keg will make life much easier. If you have to carb in bottles, make sure you use heavy duty bottles. Several Belgian imports come in thicker heavy duty bottles.

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I am using the brown Franziskaner 500ml bottles. I get the foil and labels off nicely and would like to use them for my hefe's. My first hefe is currently in 500ml PET bottles.

So why is there a chance for exploding bottles if the bottle is one originally used for a hefeweizen? I'm still having a hard time understanding why there's a risk of this if these very same bottles are used all over the world to deliver hefe's to the glasses of it's drinkers


Rev.

Rev2010 said:

I am using the brown Franziskaner 500ml bottles. I get the foil and labels off nicely and would like to use them for my hefe's. My first hefe is currently in 500ml PET bottles.

So why is there a chance for exploding bottles if the bottle is one originally used for a hefeweizen? I'm still having a hard time understanding why there's a risk of this if these very same bottles are used all over the world to deliver hefe's to the glasses of it's drinkers


Rev.

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My guess is that Franziskaner force carbonates their beer in a stainless tank and then fills the bottles with the carbonated beer. I believe that this produces much less pressure then naturally carbonating in the bottle. But I could be wrong.

Anyone else out there have knowledge on this?


Rev.

maida7 said:

My guess is that Franziskaner force carbonates their beer in a stainless tank and then fills the bottles with the carbonated beer. I believe that this produces much less pressure then naturally carbonating in the bottle. But I could be wrong.

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I think the bottles from Germany are stronger than ours. I'd pretty certain that most bottle carb with Speise - which is fresh wort. The traditional breweries do that for sure, and I would think Franziskaner would fall into that catergory. Except that it's owned by Inbev, so maybe they abandoned their past.

doctorRobert said:

I think the bottles from Germany are stronger than ours. I'd pretty certain that most bottle carb with Speise - which is fresh wort. The traditional breweries do that for sure, and I would think Franziskaner would fall into that catergory. Except that it's owned by Inbev, so maybe they abandoned their past.

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I heard recently that they filter out the hefe yeast and add a lager yeast to the bottles. Yeast in the bottle is just part of the style. The lager yeast is more stable and flocculant then the hefe yeast.

So, to be clear for others reading this post, no one has any idea about actual practises of hefe brewers? How high has everyone carbed their homebrew? 4.o? 4.5? If anyone has had bottle bombs, did you do the calculations taking actual pre-bottling beer temperatures into account?

maida7 said:

I heard recently that they filter out the hefe yeast and add a lager yeast to the bottles. Yeast in the bottle is just part of the style. The lager yeast is more stable and flocculant then the hefe yeast.

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But it's hefeweissen, as in "mit hefe" = with yeast. Flocculation is not important. I've heard "they" used larger yeast in the past and I do not buy it. I've never read that from what I consider an authoritative source. The only reason I could see them doing this is for exporting to the states, because wheat yeast can taste gross when its not fresh.

Pick a copy of "brewing with wheat" - details how Schneirder Weiss bottle carbs without filtering, or adding lager yeast. They carb by adding Speiss.

The book gives lots of recipes, and most aim to carb to 3.5 to 4 volumes. He did state that recently, because draft Hefe is gaining in popularity, that some breweries had to reduce it down to 2.5 so that it could dispense properly. It states most american breweries had trouble carbing the bottles that high, including Sierra Nevada so they dropped it down to below 3.

Schneider Weisse carbs their original to 3.5
3.6 in schlenkerla Rachweizen.

Per Stan Hieronymus - Brewing with Wheat.

Rev2010 said:

I am using the brown Franziskaner 500ml bottles. I get the foil and labels off nicely and would like to use them for my hefe's. My first hefe is currently in 500ml PET bottles.

So why is there a chance for exploding bottles if the bottle is one originally used for a hefeweizen? I'm still having a hard time understanding why there's a risk of this if these very same bottles are used all over the world to deliver hefe's to the glasses of it's drinkers


Rev.

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The fear of exploding bottles is with the "standard" home-brew bottles that shouldn't be carbed above 3 volumes (as a general rule). Using Franziskaner bottles should be fine to a higher pressure, but that's just the opinion of this random dude on the internet.

I've done 3.5 with regular sam adams bottles. One broke when i went to pop the cap off. Generally I use bombers though for my hefe's, and those seem a little stronger.

curlyfat said:

The fear of exploding bottles is with the "standard" home-brew bottles that shouldn't be carbed above 3 volumes (as a general rule). Using Franziskaner bottles should be fine to a higher pressure, but that's just the opinion of this random dude on the internet.

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The Franziskaner bottles that come in 6 packs look like regular strength bottles.

maida7 said:

The Franziskaner bottles that come in 6 packs look like regular strength bottles.

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I'm not using those, I'm using the brown 500ml bottles. For one, I hate 12oz size, too small for a beer Second, Franziskaner in the 12oz green bottles simply just does not taste nearly as good as the 500ml (16.9oz) bottles, don't know if it's the more transparent glass color, or somehow better conditioning in the larger bottles or what, but it's definitely apparent.

I've read through Eric Warner's German Wheat Beer book (god... didn't know it was like 20 years old till reading "Paulaner is the only hefe exported to the US" LOL) and he mentions the same high carb volumes all throughout the book. But so far I haven't gotten the distinction about home bottling such volumes nor why the BJCP guidelines differ from the actual volumes used by Weissbier Brauerei's.

Rev.

Rev2010 said:

I'm not using those, I'm using the brown 500ml bottles. For one, I hate 12oz size, too small for a beer Second, Franziskaner in the 12oz green bottles simply just does not taste nearly as good as the 500ml (16.9oz) bottles, don't know if it's the more transparent glass color, or somehow better conditioning in the larger bottles or what, but it's definitely apparent.

I've read through Eric Warner's German Wheat Beer book (god... didn't know it was like 20 years old till reading "Paulaner is the only hefe exported to the US" LOL) and he mentions the same high carb volumes all throughout the book. But so far I haven't gotten the distinction about home bottling such volumes nor why the BJCP guidelines differ from the actual volumes used by Weissbier Brauerei's.

Rev.

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I know your using the larger bottles but other people reading this may have other ideas.

PS: Frankiskaner changed the 6 packs to brown bottles and the flavor has definitely improved.

maida7 said:

PS: Frankiskaner changed the 6 packs to brown bottles and the flavor has definitely improved.

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Whoa, when did this happen?? Sorry to sidetrack for a moment but I'm curious.


Rev.

Rev2010 said:

Whoa, when did this happen?? Sorry to sidetrack for a moment but I'm curious.


Rev.

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I noticed them about 4-6 months ago.

theredben said:

So, to be clear for others reading this post, no one has any idea about actual practises of hefe brewers? How high has everyone carbed their homebrew? 4.o? 4.5? If anyone has had bottle bombs, did you do the calculations taking actual pre-bottling beer temperatures into account?

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I did a CO2 check on a bottle of Franziskaner this past week and it came out a bit over 4 volumes.

Rundownhouse said:

I did a CO2 check on a bottle of Franziskaner this past week and it came out a bit over 4 volumes.

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Interesting info, thanks for posting that. I guess the question still remains though - how do they get those volumes in the bottle and can we homebrewers do it at home? Is there a difference between pressure when force carbing then bottling as opposed to bottle conditioning?

Rev.

Thanks for posing the question. I am doing a Hefe next and was wondering how many vols a standard pry-off bottle could handle. My priming calculator says 4 vols is over 2X the amount of sugar I normally use. I have never had a bottle bomb yet and I don't want to start.

BeerWars said:

Thanks for posing the question. I am doing a Hefe next and was wondering how many vols a standard pry-off bottle could handle. My priming calculator says 4 vols is over 2X the amount of sugar I normally use. I have never had a bottle bomb yet and I don't want to start.

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I tried one of my hefe's last night after only a mere 5 days in the bottle. I only did so because when I opened the fermenter before bottling I had a sour smell and I wanted to see if it carried over to the bottle.

Anyway, it was awesome, I couldn't believe it was carbed up so much in 5 days. Still needs more time but wow, it carbs fast. My wife said she likes it better than Franziskaner! The sour smell is much more faint, leading me too believe it will condition away. The taste though was awesome, lots of banana like I like. Point to all this? Well maybe it will Carb even more than usual if it has so much so early. I think since hefes already have noticeable carbonation after fermentating that maybe it will give that extra push.


Rev.

I just brewed a Berliner Weisse on Sunday which sits in between at 3.5 volumes, and having asked a very experienced sours brewer, he apparently uses American bombers AND standard pry-off bottles without issue, though he advised against using Belgian bottles. Still, until I see it with my own eyes, or get some undeniably authoritative comment on the issue, I have to take it with a grain of salt. Since this think will be bulk-aging until summer anyways, I may bottle a six- or twelve-pack a month earlier just to see how it holds up with 3.5 volumes.

emjay said:

I just brewed a Berliner Weisse on Sunday which sits in between at 3.5 volumes, and having asked a very experienced sours brewer, he apparently uses American bombers AND standard pry-off bottles without issue, though he advised against using Belgian bottles. Still, until I see it with my own eyes, or get some undeniably authoritative comment on the issue, I have to take it with a grain of salt. Since this think will be bulk-aging until summer anyways, I may bottle a six- or twelve-pack a month earlier just to see how it holds up with 3.5 volumes.

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What about going to 4 vols?

BeerWars said:

What about going to 4 vols?

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Well that's a bit much for the style, but I might give some higher carbonated bottles a shot as well. Obviously, I'm going to store them as if I'm EXPECTING bottle bombs. But my Berliner Weisse still has to sour up until June or so, so even a month early, that might be a while from now. Of course, I could always experiment on a soon-to-be-ready batch, but they are kind of expensive for me to waste.

Maybe I'll cook up some DME sometime soon, with bottles primed for varying carbonation (and maybe different OG's and temperatures for good measure), and post my results. Of course, the results would be more reliable if somebody else conducted the same thing to compare

emjay said:

Well that's a bit much for the style, but I might give some higher carbonated bottles a shot as well. Obviously, I'm going to store them as if I'm EXPECTING bottle bombs. But my Berliner Weisse still has to sour up until June or so, so even a month early, that might be a while from now. Of course, I could always experiment on a soon-to-be-ready batch, but they are kind of expensive for me to waste.

Maybe I'll cook up some DME sometime soon, with bottles primed for varying carbonation (and maybe different OG's and temperatures for good measure), and post my results. Of course, the results would be more reliable if somebody else conducted the same thing to compare

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Tasty Brew is saying 3.6-4.48 and settles on 4.04 vol

I'm not an expert by any means. I have used Tasty Brew since batch 1 and have never had an issue. I would assume there would be a disclaimer if it were an issue. But I also dont want an entire batch of bombs.

BeerWars said:

Tasty Brew is saying 3.6-4.48 and settles on 4.04 vol

I'm not an expert by any means. I have used Tasty Brew since batch 1 and have never had an issue. I would assume there would be a disclaimer if it were an issue. But I also dont want an entire batch of bombs.

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The beer I have, as I mentioned, is a Berliner Weisse, not a hefeweizen. Tasty Brew puts it at precisely 3.45 volumes for the style - no more, no less. So I'm mainly concerned (right now) with being able to hit about 3.5 volumes. But if I'm going to experiment, I might as well go all the way.

Rev2010 said:

Interesting info, thanks for posting that. I guess the question still remains though - how do they get those volumes in the bottle and can we homebrewers do it at home? Is there a difference between pressure when force carbing then bottling as opposed to bottle conditioning?

Rev.

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The only info I'm sure of is one brewery stateside that force carbs the hef to between 2 and 2.5 volumes and then adds freshly fermenting wort to bottle condition up to 3.5 volumes.

Rev2010 said:

Interesting info, thanks for posting that. I guess the question still remains though - how do they get those volumes in the bottle and can we homebrewers do it at home? Is there a difference between pressure when force carbing then bottling as opposed to bottle conditioning?

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I think the info posted a little earlier from the Hieronymus book is correct. The traditional German brewers cannot force carb or add bottle priming sugar by law. They achieve carbonation by krausening the beer with freshly fermenting wort before/when bottling. Beyond that, there's lots of conflicting info about the details of the processes used; wheat ale/lager yeast in the bottle, original yeast filtered or not, exact volumes of CO2 achieved, etc.

There's no reason a homebrewer couldn't carbonate by krausening, there's a PDF by Northern Brewer on advanced bottle conditioning floating around that gives directions on how to do it & achieve you desired carbonation level. It's much simpler to add priming sugar though, and not clear that there's significant effect on the flavor.

New Brew said:

I think the info posted a little earlier from the Hironomous book is correct. The traditional German brewers cannot force carb or add bottle priming sugar by law. They achieve carbonation by krausening the beer with freshly fermenting wort before/when bottling. Beyond that, there's lots of conflicting info about the details of the processes used; wheat ale/lager yeast in the bottle, original yeast filtered or not, exact volumes of CO2 achieved, etc.

There's no reason a homebrewer couldn't carbonate by krausening, there's a PDF by Northern Brewer on advanced bottle conditioning floating around that gives directions on how to do it & achieve you desired carbonation level. It's much simpler to add priming sugar though, and not clear that there's significant effect on the flavor.

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I don't see why they can't do the krausening in a sealed tank. Carbonating the beer in a large tank and then filling the bottles with the fully carbonated beer.

K, here's two pics of my hefe after only a week in the bottle. I'm not typically impatient but mentioned I wanted to check on the slight sour smell, seems to be dissipating even more now. Funny thing is after one of these I opened a can of Asahi, and interestingly the Asahi tastes flatter than usual. I'm thinking my hefe does have a bit higher carbonation and after 3 weeks should be perfect




Rev.

No reason to speculate any longer. I am going to mix up a sample and test 4.48 vols in a standard pry-off. Now I have to find a place to safely house my potential bottle bomb for minimal damage / easy clean-up. I'll report back with my findings.

BeerWars said:

No reason to speculate any longer. I am going to mix up a sample and test 4.48 vols in a standard pry-off. Now I have to find a place to safely house my potential bottle bomb for minimal damage / easy clean-up. I'll report back with my findings.

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Be very careful. A good friend of my lost one of his eyes to an exploding bottle. The explosions are VERY forceful and the glass can go thru light materials like a bag or even thin plastic.

If they do start to explode. Cooling them will reduce the pressure.

maida7 said:

Be very careful. A good friend of my lost one of his eyes to an exploding bottle. The explosions are VERY forceful and the glass can go thru light materials like a bag or even thin plastic.

If they do start to explode. Cooling them will reduce the pressure.

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I'm just doing one at 4.5 vols. Thanks for the heads up. I have it in a plastic container that is wrapped in duct-tape inside a .5 inch thick mug, with a thick plastic cup on top. It is going to be tucked away in the back of a cabinet inside of multiple containers and left alone for a week or so.

BeerWars said:

I'm just doing one at 4.5 vols. Thanks for the heads up. I have it in a plastic container that is wrapped in duct-tape inside a .5 inch thick mug, with a thick plastic cup on top. It is going to be tucked away in the back of a cabinet inside of multiple containers and left alone for a week or so.

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A week isn't long enough to be conclusive, it really needs a good 3-4 weeks to hit the highest pressure. Also, disturbing the bottles could potentially send them over the edge, so wear safety glasses (glasses with polycarbonate lenses are probably adequate) when handling them.

BeerWars said:

I'm just doing one at 4.5 vols. Thanks for the heads up. I have it in a plastic container that is wrapped in duct-tape inside a .5 inch thick mug, with a thick plastic cup on top. It is going to be tucked away in the back of a cabinet inside of multiple containers and left alone for a week or so.

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Anything ever come of this? I think doing 3-5 bottles of different brands would give a better indication of the safety of carbing to 4.5. But 1 is better than none!

Strave19 said:

Anything ever come of this? I think doing 3-5 bottles of different brands would give a better indication of the safety of carbing to 4.5. But 1 is better than none!

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So far so good. No bombs. Which makes me wonder how people get them. If you saw the amount of sugar I added to get up to 4.5 vols you would wonder how anyone would ever have a bomb.

Rev2010 said:

But so far I haven't gotten the distinction about home bottling such volumes nor why the BJCP guidelines differ from the actual volumes used by Weissbier Brauerei's.

Rev.

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The BJCP guidelines do not give a figure for how much co2 weissbier should have as volumes or grams per liter or anything other quantitative description.