Invert Sugar and Candy Sugar

bonsai4tim · Jul 13, 2010

There is a difference between caramelized and dark candi sugar--caramaelize will happen just with heat, and tastes like caramel (duh). Usually at a pretty high temp (sugar solution over 300F, and it happens "just" before it starts to burn.

Dark candi sugar made with yeast nutrient (diammonium posphate) or baking ammonia causes the maillard reaction to occur, at a lower temp than sugar will caramelize at. The maillard reaction changes some of the glucose/sucrose into unfermentable products. More of a toasted marshmallow flavor rather than caramel.

Bru · Jul 14, 2010

Thats not correct.
Candi sugar / invert sugar is sucrose which has been converted to fructose and glucose by hydrolysis. This happens when sugar and water is heated. Acid (lemon juice, cream of tarter, lactic, ascorbic etc) accelerates the reaction but is not nescesary.
Yeast nutrient may help fermentation but is not needed to make invert sugar. AFAIK baking ammonia is alkaline.

Scimmia · Jul 14, 2010

Bru said:
Thats not correct.
...
Yeast nutrient may help fermentation but is not needed to make invert sugar.

bonsai4tim is correct, he's just way off topic. Clear invert sugar is made just as you describe, but creating the maillard reactions to darken the sugar requires amino acids, which can be provided by DAP. Two completely different things.

fc36 · Jul 14, 2010

Scimmia said:
bonsai4tim is correct, he's just way off topic. Clear invert sugar is made just as you describe, but creating the maillard reactions to darken the sugar requires amino acids, which can be provided by DAP. Two completely different things.

Now I'm not an organic chemist, but I am a chemical engineer and I do remember some of the things they taught us in Organic Chemistry (when I wasn't sleeping of course

) and the maillard reaction is promoted by alkaline conditions. I confirmed this with a quick search of wikipedia and double-checked that with a quick flip through my old orgo textbook. The added benefit is not only do you get the darkening seen in caramel sugars, but the dark candi sugars also have hundreds if not thousands of other compounds responsible for unique flavors that otherwise would not be seen in caramel sugars and invert or white sugars. So to increase attenuation and alcohol content alone; white sugar, invert sugar and homemade invert sugar will all do the job; but dark candi sugars will also do that and add some very nice flavors and may even flavor the beer a little better than just straight caramel sugars.

Bru · Jul 15, 2010

Candi sugar/invert sugar recipes seldomly have added amino acids/DAP and still the sugar darkens. Im not sure if its as a result of caramelization or Mailard reaction but Im assuming its maillard because the added water keeps temperatures down or possibly a combination of both.

Scimmia said:
bonsai4tim is correct, he's just way off topic. Clear invert sugar is made just as you describe, but creating the maillard reactions to darken the sugar requires amino acids, which can be provided by DAP. Two completely different things.

fc36 - maillard reaction happens during a long boil in acidic wort (?)

Im not argueing with either post, just trying to underdstand the process.

Scimmia · Jul 15, 2010

Bru said:
Candi sugar/invert sugar recipes seldomly have added amino acids/DAP and still the sugar darkens. Im not sure if its as a result of caramelization or Mailard reaction but Im assuming its maillard because the added water keeps temperatures down or possibly a combination of both.

Maillard reactions cannot happen without nitrogen, and cane sugar + water (C12H22O11 + H2O) has none. If you're getting color, it's from caramelization. If it's happening below the caramelization temperature of the sugar, you either have a nitrogen source or your heating too fast and scorching (caramelizing) the bottom.

Bru said:
fc36 - maillard reaction happens during a long boil in acidic wort (?)

Maillard reactions are promoted at higher PH, but that doesn't mean they require it. To tell you the truth, I'm still trying to figure out if fc36's post was arguing with mine or agreeing with it.

It seems to be completely out of left field. We're taking the thread WAY off topic at this point.

Denny · Jul 15, 2010

Scimmia said:
Maillard reactions cannot happen without nitrogen, and cane sugar + water (C12H22O11 + H2O) has none. If you're getting color, it's from caramelization. If it's happening below the caramelization temperature of the sugar, you either have a nitrogen source or your heating too fast and scorching (caramelizing) the bottom.

There's plenty of nitrogen in the grain, though.

Scimmia · Jul 15, 2010

Denny said:
There's plenty of nitrogen in the grain, though.

Absolutely, in the wort it's not an issue. Candi Syrup, on the other hand, isn't made with grain.

fc36 · Jul 15, 2010

My argument was that caramel, invert and white sugars will all increase your OG and attenuation, but don't necessarily have all of the flavor compounds present in dark candi sugars. Caramelized sugars have some flavoring compounds due to the chemical changes imparted by caramelization, but they have not undergone maillard reactions to the degree that is seen in dark candi sugars. Dark candi sugars have been heated in an alkaline solution (i.e. with diammonium phosphate or other chemical) and above 310F. This heavily promotes the maillard reaction and releases a whole host of flavoring compounds that can be attractive in some brews. Invert and white sugars don't have any of these and caramel doesn't have these flavor compounds in anywhere near the concentration of dark candi sugars. Sorry to take this off topic so much.

Anyways, I think invert and white sugars will both be eaten by any hungry yeasties and will do a great job of increasing OG and attenuation, but for added flavor dark candi sugars will fit the bill and caramel sugar is just a waste of money unless you've decided to caramelize your own white sugar.

ctkach · Aug 9, 2010

fc36 said:
Caramelized sugars have some flavoring compounds due to the chemical changes imparted by caramelization, but they have not undergone maillard reactions to the degree that is seen in dark candi sugars. Dark candi sugars have been heated in an alkaline solution (i.e. with diammonium phosphate or other chemical) and above 310F. This heavily promotes the maillard reaction and releases a whole host of flavoring compounds that can be attractive in some brews.

This is all very interesting. Does anyone have recommendations on how much DAP to use per lb of table sugar to promote these maillard reactions? I would love to never have to purchase candi syrup again as it is expensive stuff!

frazier · Aug 9, 2010

ctkach said:
This is all very interesting. Does anyone have recommendations on how much DAP to use per lb of table sugar to promote these maillard reactions? I would love to never have to purchase candi syrup again as it is expensive stuff!

Here's a famous thread on the subject: 20 pounds of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient.

ctkach · Aug 9, 2010

frazier said:
Here's a famous thread on the subject: 20 pounds of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient.

Thanks Frazier... awesome stuff!

Synovia · Aug 9, 2010

Scimmia said:
Maillard reactions cannot happen without nitrogen, and cane sugar + water (C12H22O11 + H2O) has none. .

Have you ever tested tap water for NO2/No3? There's plenty.

fc36 · Aug 9, 2010

Synovia said:
Have you ever tested tap water for NO2/No3? There's plenty.

We're both in Chicago and there's actually not much in the way of nitrates/ites in our water in order to promote the vigorous and complete Maillard reactions that one looks for when making dark candi sugar. Just check out the city's water quality reports from 2006-2009. http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/depts/water/supp_info/water_quality_resultsandreports/comprehensive_chemicalanalysis.html
I don't think measurements of less than 0.5mg/L nitrates and less than the measurement threshold for nitrite of 0.02mg/L in each quarter of the past 4 years qualifies as "plenty" of these chemicals. I don't mean to bust your chops, but simple tap water will not do the trick, no matter where you live.

NatureNurd · Aug 20, 2010

Denny said:
The pH of wort boiling in the kettle is low enough that it inverts sugar when you add it to the kettle.

I agree that boiling sucrose in the low pH of the wort will allow for inversion over a long boil, thus negating a need to invert before hand. However, I do see a very clear case where preparing invert sugar outside of the boil could be of use.

The extreme temperatures and lack of amino acids in the process of inverting sucrose with citric acid and H2O will allow for the hydrolysis to occur with little to no simultaneous maillard reactions. This can produce a very clear invert sugar syrup of fructose and glucose easily fermented by yeast.

Here is the scenario where I see this being an advantage. If the brewer is interested in a high original gravity wort for a very light colored beer, they will not want to boil the sucrose for long, else fearing unwanted maillard reactions occurring. The brewer may also want a fast fermentation process to occur to avoid the formation of diacetyl, higher/fusel alcohol, ester, and volatile sulfur compounds. Inverted sugars allow the brewer to reach both of these goals with one addition late in the boil.

If I could add a condition to your comment, it would be that any brewer that is interested in adding sucrose to a darker beer can probably get away with adding it to the boil early on to provide the benefits of monosaccharides in the final chilled wort.

Hermit · Aug 20, 2010

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/does-table-sugar-invert-boiling-wort-165822/

BBKeys1 · Jan 29, 2011

So this Chocolate Stout recipe I'm trying to make calls for 8oz. Invert Sugar (along with 4oz. cane) What do you recommend I use for the Invert? Make my own? Lyle's Golden Syrup? Substitute Sugar In the Raw? I've heard or read a lot of opinions. Can anyone recommend one in particular, from experience?

And lastly, if I am to make my own, do I just use regular, white table sugar?

riromero · Jan 29, 2011

BBKeys1 said:
So this Chocolate Stout recipe I'm trying to make calls for 8oz. Invert Sugar (along with 4oz. cane) What do you recommend I use for the Invert? Make my own? Lyle's Golden Syrup? Substitute Sugar In the Raw? I've heard or read a lot of opinions. Can anyone recommend one in particular, from experience?

And lastly, if I am to make my own, do I just use regular, white table sugar?

I'd highly recommend making your own. I use cheap C&H sugar from the grocery store. I bet 1 cup sugar, 1.5 cups water and a pinch of citric acid would be more than 8oz. Just boil it till it gets ever so slightly thick but not quite golden. It continues to darken after you take it off the fire so if you want to make perfect golden syrup you might have to practice a few times.

BBKeys1 · Jan 30, 2011

riromero said:
I'd highly recommend making your own. I use cheap C&H sugar from the grocery store. I bet 1 cup sugar, 1.5 cups water and a pinch of citric acid would be more than 8oz. Just boil it till it gets ever so slightly thick but not quite golden. It continues to darken after you take it off the fire so if you want to make perfect golden syrup you might have to practice a few times.

Awesome, thanks! I'll give it a try tonight and let you know in about a month! So am I correct in assuming that the main purpose for including this invert sugar is to up the abv? what about the cain sugar? what is that in there for?

Hermit · Jan 30, 2011

BBKeys1 said:
Awesome, thanks! I'll give it a try tonight and let you know in about a month! So am I correct in assuming that the main purpose for including this invert sugar is to up the abv? what about the cain sugar? what is that in there for?

Going from memory. Inverting sugar makes it easier for the yeast to digest. When they have to split table sugar they make compounds like acetaldehyde. They can reabsorb it later if you leave it on the yeast long enough. If not, you get 'green apple'.

riromero · Jan 30, 2011

BBKeys1 said:
Awesome, thanks! I'll give it a try tonight and let you know in about a month! So am I correct in assuming that the main purpose for including this invert sugar is to up the abv? what about the cain sugar? what is that in there for?

I've added invert sugar (glucose & fructose) to the wort. And I've used plain cane sugar (sucrose) to prime bottles for carbonation without any cidery taste. But I've never used both in the wort. Sorry, but I have no clue why your recipe calls for both.

BBKeys1 · Jan 31, 2011

riromero said:
I'd highly recommend making your own. I use cheap C&H sugar from the grocery store. I bet 1 cup sugar, 1.5 cups water and a pinch of citric acid would be more than 8oz. Just boil it till it gets ever so slightly thick but not quite golden. It continues to darken after you take it off the fire so if you want to make perfect golden syrup you might have to practice a few times.

any idea how long it usually needs to boil before beginning to change color? ballpark figure?

caiafa · Apr 24, 2011

The darkening goes way faster in an alkaline solution. Just tried making some dark sugar syrup from beet table sugar and I used about 200ml of 1% NaOH solution to promote Maillard reactions, added in batches. The sugar syrup is pitch black and I've never gone over 130°C.

As foodgrade NaOH is rather hard to find, you could try to convert some NaHCO3 (baking soda) into Na2Co3 by heating at 200°C in the oven and than using a that dissolved in water to accelerate the darkening. (just add the solution a little at a time when the sugar passes 105-110°C

SRicci · Sep 1, 2013

Hi,

old discussion, I know, but someone could be interested in how the real story is, a part of it at least

I did extesive reaseaches for understanding what ligth candy sugar is and what are the differencies with inverted sugar (if there are any differencies, I suspect it is a blend of inverted and table sugar). I met some goals about the process and find many hints about the process for producing the dark one.

Only problem: it is in Italian... http://www.movimentobirra.it/public/file-caricati/MOBI_01-2013.pdf (pag. 9)

Briefly: some of you said right things. But you missed one point, I think: you cannot have ANY Maillard reaction with sucrose. That's why you have to invert table sugar to have the Maillard reaction, it works with fructose and glucose, not with sucrose. You can only caramellize sucrose. AFTER you inverted the sugar, you increase pH adding some amino acids to help the Maillard reaction, the easy way is adding ammonium bicarbonate. Under 140 C you will mainly have Maillard reaction and less Caramelization (it works above 100 C). You can play with time and temperatures to develop a good profile for you dark sugar. In my article you can find some indications about level of pH where the two reactions could be achieved (2.5-3 and 4-4.5)

Regarding the possibiliy to invert sugar during the boiling, what Denny says is not correct. Look at this graph:

http://bressanini-lescienze.blogaut...t/2008/11/19/che-cos’e-lo-zucchero-invertito/

This is the time, temperature and pH needed to invert HALF of the sugar. So putting your sugar at the start of the boil you will need 2-3 hours to invert HALF of it (and it will be darker, not optimal for a Tripel)

I do not know if there are some differencies in the flavour profile between plain and inverted (ligth) sugar: some brewers use the plain, others use the inverted, and other use the candy ligth (in Europe, for breweries, there are both the inverted and the candy). A friend of mine, brewer and great taster, said that with blind tasting candy ligth resulted better than the inverted. Anyway, in homebrewing, I use sugar inverted on my own: it is not a great effort, add citric acid, add sugar, warm up a pot, wait until it gets cold, add ammonium bicarbonate (or baking soda, it works the same for ligth candy) and that's it

highgravitybacon · Sep 1, 2013

SRicci said:
Hi,

old discussion, I know, but someone could be interested in how the real story is, a part of it at least

I did extesive reaseaches for understanding what ligth candy sugar is and what are the differencies with inverted sugar (if there are any differencies, I suspect it is a blend of inverted and table sugar). I met some goals about the process and find many hints about the process for producing the dark one.

Only problem: it is in Italian... http://www.movimentobirra.it/public/file-caricati/MOBI_01-2013.pdf (pag. 9)

Briefly: some of you said right things. But you missed one point, I think: you cannot have ANY Maillard reaction with sucrose. That's why you have to invert table sugar to have the Maillard reaction, it works with fructose and glucose, not with sucrose. You can only caramellize sucrose. AFTER you inverted the sugar, you increase pH adding some amino acids to help the Maillard reaction, the easy way is adding ammonium bicarbonate. Under 140 C you will mainly have Maillard reaction and less Caramelization (it works above 100 C). You can play with time and temperatures to develop a good profile for you dark sugar. In my article you can find some indications about level of pH where the two reactions could be achieved (2.5-3 and 4-4.5)

Regarding the possibiliy to invert sugar during the boiling, what Denny says is not correct. Look at this graph:

http://bressanini-lescienze.blogautore.espresso.repubblica.it/2008/11/19/che-cos%E2%80%99e-lo-zucchero-invertito/

This is the time, temperature and pH needed to invert HALF of the sugar. So putting your sugar at the start of the boil you will need 2-3 hours to invert HALF of it (and it will be darker, not optimal for a Tripel)

I do not know if there are some differencies in the flavour profile between plain and inverted (ligth) sugar: some brewers use the plain, others use the inverted, and other use the candy ligth (in Europe, for breweries, there are both the inverted and the candy). A friend of mine, brewer and great taster, said that with blind tasting candy ligth resulted better than the inverted. Anyway, in homebrewing, I use sugar inverted on my own: it is not a great effort, add citric acid, add sugar, warm up a pot, wait until it gets cold, add ammonium bicarbonate (or baking soda, it works the same for ligth candy) and that's it

So the real question: what is your dark candi sugar recipe?

SRicci · Sep 2, 2013

highgravitybacon said:
So the real question: what is your dark candi sugar recipe?

something like this:

1 kg table sugar
about 0.5 lt of water
very little citric acid (say the end of a little spoon)

you should have pH 3-3.5, if you want to check (lower is not a big problem)

warm the syrup to 90-100 C
cover the pot and wait at least 1 hour

then add a very very little quantity of ammonium bicarbonate (other substaces could work, this one is cheap and easy to find for me)

pH should be 4-4.5 (higher should not be a problem, 4.5 is the value of the commercial one, the higher the value the faster the Maillard reaction, the less you can control it)

then make steps of temperature under 140 C until you reach the desired colour and flavour, for example 90-110-130 C each for 10' (you have to tune this)

highgravitybacon · Sep 2, 2013

SRicci said:
something like this:

1 kg table sugar
about 0.5 lt of water
very little citric acid (say the end of a little spoon)

you should have pH 3-3.5, if you want to check (lower is not a big problem)

warm the syrup to 90-100 C
cover the pot and wait at least 1 hour

then add a very very little quantity of ammonium bicarbonate (other substaces could work, this one is cheap and easy to find for me)

pH should be 4-4.5 (higher should not be a problem, 4.5 is the value of the commercial one, the higher the value the faster the Maillard reaction, the less you can control it)

then make steps of temperature under 140 C until you reach the desired colour and flavour, for example 90-110-130 C each for 10' (you have to tune this)

I am not finding the ammonium bicarb. What other agents work? DAP? Is it for the nitrogen you use it?

SRicci · Sep 3, 2013

highgravitybacon said:
I am not finding the ammonium bicarb. What other agents work? DAP? Is it for the nitrogen you use it?

ammonium bicarb is used in cooking (leavening cookies). should not be impossible to find it

DAP should work too. I don't know about the ability of DAP to increase pH: if it is too low after having added DAP, you can help the Maillard reaction using very very very little baking soda

here other insights about the process and temp: http://brewery.org/brewery/library/Maillard_CS0497.html

Invert Sugar and Candy Sugar

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

Supporting Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Supporting Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

fuddle

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

fuddle

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Similar threads