If it were not for my SIL, I would go with just a 1 micron filter too. But for him, I have to do a multi stage filtration if I don't want to end up with a glogged filter.
Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!
- Thread starter WortMonger
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cmuench
Well-Known Member
I started my first closed system pressure fermentation in a sankey today. I've been assembling all of the equipment to make it happen, and it all came together today.
We did a 15 gal scottish 80 with wyeast 1728 fermenting at 65 degrees. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to make a starter.
My questions are:
Since I've under pitched (one smack pack) how much lag time should I expect?
and: How do you know where this Polysulfone valve is set? I turned it counter clockwise as far as I dare with the hope that its wide open. As the yeast start to give off CO2 I assume that I turn it clockwise to increase the pressure.
We did a 15 gal scottish 80 with wyeast 1728 fermenting at 65 degrees. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to make a starter.
My questions are:
Since I've under pitched (one smack pack) how much lag time should I expect?
and: How do you know where this Polysulfone valve is set? I turned it counter clockwise as far as I dare with the hope that its wide open. As the yeast start to give off CO2 I assume that I turn it clockwise to increase the pressure.
LooyvilleLarry
Well-Known Member
WortMonger, just to let you know, I use a 1micron filter (sometimes). I used it on my lager, because I knew I'd only have a few weeks to lager - it came out crystal clear and very tasty !
OP
OP
I am scared to say what your lag time will be. That is quite a bit of under-pitching. I would have done a real wort starter (RWS) and just sealed up the rest until you were ready to pitch a more sizable amount of yeast into the bigger beer. I had a bit of lag time with this last one due to my shocking the yeast with temperature, and that was on a previously fermented yeast cake. This leads me into your other question.
I didn't see any activity as far as pressure build up for over a week. The only way I know of to "know" where your pressure release is set on your valve, is to have shot your fermenter with CO2 to more than the pressure you wanted and then bleed it down to set release pressure. In my case I let it ride until I was over this wanted pressure, and you could do the same thing. It is just easier to know by juicing it with a tank at the beginning. I would leave your valve closed completely and check daily. You may end up with some off flavors due to your lag and under-pitch, so I would go ahead and let the pressure build while turning up the heat a bit after you see you are fermenting. This makes sure the yeast will have the best chance to clean up most of what they can, diacetyl especially!!!
Good to hear. I really think I am going to filter now that my lagers are turning out so well, other than clarity.
LooyvilleLarry
Well-Known Member
If you can pick up another smak pack, just pitch them both.
OP
OP
Oh yeah, of course if you can get another pack pitch it. My advice "as is" is once you see pressure on your gauge... jack it up to 70*F and let it ride. I would leave my spunding valve closed until I reached carbonation/temperature levels and start my controlled release of pressure. The pressure will help you keep some of the unwanted off-flavors tamed, but under-pitching like you did might still have some that can't be completely cleaned up. Only time will tell. After your D-rest (which I would have for 4-7 days shaking the keg to stir the yeast up) I would find a way to taste test and gravity test. If you are good then crash cool, if you aren't then let it ride longer at the higher temps with yeast rousing. I bet you are not going to have any problems, but if you do you will know by taste. Oh, and be sure to tell the fermenting keg, "It puts the lotion on its skin, or it gets the hose again!"
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cmuench
Well-Known Member
Gentleman,
I do appreciate the advice.
I checked my pressure gauge at about 515pm tonight before we went to our halloween party and had about 5-10 psi on it (maybe 24 hours post pitch). I bled it to 0. Just checked it again and had a solid 15 psi. I bled it with the spunding valve down to about 2 psi and I've got a bunch of krausen coming out of the S valve at 65 degrees.
Now let's not forget these are not some namby pamby Oklahoma Scottish yeast we're talking about. THESE are hearty Minnesota Scottish yeast!!! Afterall, we have to be able to stomach the Vikings and still be able to get out of bed in the morning and go to work!!!
I do appreciate the advice.
I checked my pressure gauge at about 515pm tonight before we went to our halloween party and had about 5-10 psi on it (maybe 24 hours post pitch). I bled it to 0. Just checked it again and had a solid 15 psi. I bled it with the spunding valve down to about 2 psi and I've got a bunch of krausen coming out of the S valve at 65 degrees.
Now let's not forget these are not some namby pamby Oklahoma Scottish yeast we're talking about. THESE are hearty Minnesota Scottish yeast!!! Afterall, we have to be able to stomach the Vikings and still be able to get out of bed in the morning and go to work!!!
OP
OP
Hey, that's great. 
Yeah, when you have that much in the keg and try to let that much pressure out at once it will allow krausen to escape. I usually run with the spunding valve set to 5 psi at least to keep the crap under control.
Are you going to try and carbonate with your last few gravity points? I am asking because it works better then, and you can get there fast at the higher temperatures when starting your D-rest. After the yeast has gone through its growth stage, you can jack it up to D-rest temps (at least in my understanding from Jamil and my own experiences). This is why I can't use my original spunding valve, as it only controls up to 20 psi and I need 36 in some instances at those temperatures to get those volumes of carbonation.
So glad that yeast took off like a rocket... as I honestly didn't expect that at all. I have learned though to not trust yeast activity by reading my pressure gauge. In my thinking on this, the beer (being under pressure) is absorbing more CO2 during initial fermentation that would normally be bubbling out an airlock or into a blow-off bucket. So, the gauge won't read until the beer can't absorb as fast as it wants to get out of the keg. I have to say that I thought I had this thing pretty figured out... and then I started brewing lagers, lol. Lagers are definitely teaching me even more about this technique. Teaching me to trust stuff is happening even though I can't see it is. Don't forget your D-rest, and then don't forget to post as soon as you have more results. I can't wait to hear more.
As for the rest of you slackers... when are you gonna contribute more to this thread with your beers? Get to brewing you lazy people, lol. I am getting bored with nothing to read on here. I may have started this thread, but it ain't my thread!!!
Yeah, when you have that much in the keg and try to let that much pressure out at once it will allow krausen to escape. I usually run with the spunding valve set to 5 psi at least to keep the crap under control.
Are you going to try and carbonate with your last few gravity points? I am asking because it works better then, and you can get there fast at the higher temperatures when starting your D-rest. After the yeast has gone through its growth stage, you can jack it up to D-rest temps (at least in my understanding from Jamil and my own experiences). This is why I can't use my original spunding valve, as it only controls up to 20 psi and I need 36 in some instances at those temperatures to get those volumes of carbonation.
So glad that yeast took off like a rocket... as I honestly didn't expect that at all. I have learned though to not trust yeast activity by reading my pressure gauge. In my thinking on this, the beer (being under pressure) is absorbing more CO2 during initial fermentation that would normally be bubbling out an airlock or into a blow-off bucket. So, the gauge won't read until the beer can't absorb as fast as it wants to get out of the keg. I have to say that I thought I had this thing pretty figured out... and then I started brewing lagers, lol. Lagers are definitely teaching me even more about this technique. Teaching me to trust stuff is happening even though I can't see it is. Don't forget your D-rest, and then don't forget to post as soon as you have more results. I can't wait to hear more.
As for the rest of you slackers... when are you gonna contribute more to this thread with your beers? Get to brewing you lazy people, lol. I am getting bored with nothing to read on here. I may have started this thread, but it ain't my thread!!!
cmuench
Well-Known Member
OK I need some help with the math...
I overshot my OG by 10. 1.062 vs 1.052. Not sure why.
Now I'm at 4 days, 10 psi and 65 degrees. The SG today is 1.020. Now what? There's no more krausen out of the S valve. The taste is quite good...
I'd like to carbonate with the last few SG points.
Any thoughts?
I overshot my OG by 10. 1.062 vs 1.052. Not sure why.
Now I'm at 4 days, 10 psi and 65 degrees. The SG today is 1.020. Now what? There's no more krausen out of the S valve. The taste is quite good...
I'd like to carbonate with the last few SG points.
Any thoughts?
OP
OP
What volumes of CO2 do you want? According to style, you should want between 1.5 volumes to 2.3 volumes of carbonation. This is equivalent to 10.68 psi to 22.88 psi respectively at 65*F, according to BeerSmith. I would go ahead and set your SV to somewhere in between that and let it ride until finish. I actually like to set the pressure a tad bit higher, release the excess to wanted, and then do my D-rest once the pressure stops increasing (of course taking into effect having to raise my psi to keep the wanted carbonation level when doing so). Your growth phase is done, whatever you do (within reasonable parameters of course) with the yeast will be fine. The higher pressure won't hurt anything or give any off flavors that won't clear up during your D-rest time. Crank it! Give it time to do its thing! Then enjoy that beer!
I'm excited for you:rockin:
I'm excited for you:rockin:
klyph
Well-Known Member
I pieced together this apparatus to use in conjunction with the brewer's hardware kit. I think it's pretty sexy.
Unfortunately, until I can get my kegerator built, I won't be able to use it.
Unfortunately, until I can get my kegerator built, I won't be able to use it.
LooyvilleLarry
Well-Known Member
NICE ! I might do the same, but put a QD on the air line. All of my utility connections are like that now.
One thing that I can mention about this setup, make sure it holds the pressure at the start. You can get the oring in just a little off and it will leak past the "tabs".
One thing that I can mention about this setup, make sure it holds the pressure at the start. You can get the oring in just a little off and it will leak past the "tabs".
OP
OP
Nice setup! I concur with Larry about the quick disconnect. That would open this particular configuration to easy connection to your transfer/purging gas. I am going to do this eventually with my setup. Also, with the pressurized fermentation, you could get away with a room temperature fermentation if you could get it to a room of 68*F or so for an ale. I still wouldn't recommend a lager at that temperature, but an ale is totally doable at those temperatures to equate to a normal unpressurized fermentation of 64*F.
cmuench
Well-Known Member
I agree, sweet setup.
I was trying to decide on Derin's triclover vs Wort's sankey coupler. I decided to go with the coupler.
I like the idea of a QD for gas in. My plan was to remove my pressure gauge and SV and replace it with a tail piece and CO2 hose when it comes time to transfer to a serving keg. Either way...
Wort, I'm up to 15 psi this morning. Keep her closed at 65 degrees for a week, crash cool to 32-35 degrees for a week, then filter while transferring to a serving keg, then enjoy??? What do you think of that plan?
I was trying to decide on Derin's triclover vs Wort's sankey coupler. I decided to go with the coupler.
I like the idea of a QD for gas in. My plan was to remove my pressure gauge and SV and replace it with a tail piece and CO2 hose when it comes time to transfer to a serving keg. Either way...
Wort, I'm up to 15 psi this morning. Keep her closed at 65 degrees for a week, crash cool to 32-35 degrees for a week, then filter while transferring to a serving keg, then enjoy??? What do you think of that plan?
OP
OP
Sounds like a plan!
I decided not to cut the spear on my sanke for my first shot at pressurized fermentation. The results...
Pretty good, actually regarding sediment. I attempted to draw off the sediment before filling my kegs. Drew off about a quart and then it was running clear. Then I filled the kegs.
I'm crash cooling now and force carbing. I just took a taste and it's pretty darn good. No off flavors.
I let mine sit in the fermenting keg for about three weeks, though since I don't have a way to crash cool. I also slowly released the pressure from 15psi to about 3. Since I wasn't crash cooling and didn't quite have the gear for counterpressure transfer I just pushed the beer into the first corny and opened the lid a bit to see when it was full. For the second corny I purged with co2, then filled thru the dip tube with it closed.
I'm looking to get a lot better at my technique and do counterpressure transfers. But hey, for now the beer seems darn fine! It was pretty simple to rinse out my sanke. Now it's doing a pbw soak and should be ready to go next week if I can get my RIMS tube and control panel built!
Thanks to all who helped. Fermenting in a sanke is awesome.
Pretty good, actually regarding sediment. I attempted to draw off the sediment before filling my kegs. Drew off about a quart and then it was running clear. Then I filled the kegs.
I'm crash cooling now and force carbing. I just took a taste and it's pretty darn good. No off flavors.
I let mine sit in the fermenting keg for about three weeks, though since I don't have a way to crash cool. I also slowly released the pressure from 15psi to about 3. Since I wasn't crash cooling and didn't quite have the gear for counterpressure transfer I just pushed the beer into the first corny and opened the lid a bit to see when it was full. For the second corny I purged with co2, then filled thru the dip tube with it closed.
I'm looking to get a lot better at my technique and do counterpressure transfers. But hey, for now the beer seems darn fine! It was pretty simple to rinse out my sanke. Now it's doing a pbw soak and should be ready to go next week if I can get my RIMS tube and control panel built!
Thanks to all who helped. Fermenting in a sanke is awesome.
OP
OP
Fermenting in a Sanke is "The Mutt's Nuts!" Glad it worked out so well for you without the spear cut. That was my whole idea envisioned, to not have to use anything out of the ordinary to do this if you already kegging your beer. Of course you have to build a spunding valve, but... hey, that piece of equipment comes in handy for counter pressure transferring sooooooo. I love to set my brewery up for universal uses for things, as opposed to having tons of equipment.
My latest venture is to chill, pitch, then roll into my house for a 70*F fermentation. Hopefully proving, to my tastes, the ability to have more brewing without the need for using my fermentation freezer, and creating a truly easy house ale system. I'm hoping 70*F under pressure will equal 65*F under normal conditions flavor-wise. I hope to get to do this today, if time permits. Guess we'll see how much krausen I get with 15+ gallons inside my house. I'm hoping not much if any.... Ahhh, experiments are fun aren't they? Great job Dgonza9, great job guys! Keep it coming. People are obviously reading this thread and getting ideas on their own. Contribute, and add to the technique so we can all brew easier!
My latest venture is to chill, pitch, then roll into my house for a 70*F fermentation. Hopefully proving, to my tastes, the ability to have more brewing without the need for using my fermentation freezer, and creating a truly easy house ale system. I'm hoping 70*F under pressure will equal 65*F under normal conditions flavor-wise. I hope to get to do this today, if time permits. Guess we'll see how much krausen I get with 15+ gallons inside my house. I'm hoping not much if any.... Ahhh, experiments are fun aren't they? Great job Dgonza9, great job guys! Keep it coming. People are obviously reading this thread and getting ideas on their own. Contribute, and add to the technique so we can all brew easier!
OP
OP
OK guys, pulling the trigger. All numbers are from BeerSmith. I have 13 gallons of water in my HLT heating to 168*F right now for my 154*F wanted 10 gallon mash rest (.4 gallons/# of grain). I'm mashing and boiling a 12 gallon recipe of higher gravity for a larger 15 gallon end batch after the boil. City water is coming out at 65*F, so perfect to get me below my room temperature for an easy rise to my wanted fermentation temperature of 70*F. After the 2 hour mash (mashed thin, but high), I will sparge with 8 gallons of 185*F water to get me to 15 gallons in my kettle. I know, kinda tight on the kettle space, but I have done it before with no mess. You just have to be careful and ready for the eruption . I'm hitting the 90 minute boil with 2oz (9.1%AA) Amarillo @ 90, 1oz @ 30, and 1oz @ 10 minutes for a IBU of 43.1 (just 3ish points over the high limit of the style). This also gives me a OG of 1.061, FG of 1.016, IBU's as mentioned, ABV of 5.9%, and SRM of 27.1. Of course, after blending, I will have a OG of 1.049, FG of 1.013, IBU of ~37 (probably more like 33-35), ABV of 4.7%, and SRM of ~23.
Recipe is as follows:
10# (40%) Weyermann Munich Type 1
10# (40%) Weyermann Pale Ale Malt
2.5# (10%) Caramel 40*L
1.5# (6%) Chocolate 400*L
1# (4%) Weyermann Wheat
Now, we just wait and see....
. I'm hitting the 90 minute boil with 2oz (9.1%AA) Amarillo @ 90, 1oz @ 30, and 1oz @ 10 minutes for a IBU of 43.1 (just 3ish points over the high limit of the style). This also gives me a OG of 1.061, FG of 1.016, IBU's as mentioned, ABV of 5.9%, and SRM of 27.1. Of course, after blending, I will have a OG of 1.049, FG of 1.013, IBU of ~37 (probably more like 33-35), ABV of 4.7%, and SRM of ~23.Recipe is as follows:
10# (40%) Weyermann Munich Type 1
10# (40%) Weyermann Pale Ale Malt
2.5# (10%) Caramel 40*L
1.5# (6%) Chocolate 400*L
1# (4%) Weyermann Wheat
Now, we just wait and see....
Need some advice today for my brew session. My HERMS is on timer and ready to kick on at 5:30am to get up to strike. I'm doing a modified Schwarzbier 12 gallon batch where half the batch will get a decent amount of active PacMan yeast and the other half will get a Bavarian Lager. I'm going to pressure ferment the Bavarian lager and this is my first lager ever.
If anyone can make recommendations on pressure for the fermentation as well as temperatures, I would greatly appreciate it. I know I need to do a Diacetyl rest but not sure when and at what temps.
Appreciate any assistance friends
Flananuts
If anyone can make recommendations on pressure for the fermentation as well as temperatures, I would greatly appreciate it. I know I need to do a Diacetyl rest but not sure when and at what temps.
Appreciate any assistance friends
Flananuts
OP
OP
I would ferment the Bavarian Lager at the lowest temperature to the middle of its range. As for pressure, I can only recommend if it was me. I like to start my fermentation at 5-7 psi sometimes 10 psi if I have a really full fermenter and am scared of krausen.
It takes a while to show before mentioned pressure (sometimes 2 days sometimes, sometimes right away, sometimes a week???), but trust that it is working. The colder you go the longer it takes in my experience. After you see the pressure, I go ahead and crank it up to my wanted carbonation volumes pressure and let it ride.
When I decide to do my D-rest, I up the pressure accordingly for my wanted volumes and let it ramp up until a couple of days to a week have passed. Then I slowly take the beer down to lagering temperatures at 5*F per day until my temperatures are reached and mature appropriately. After I have set my spunding valve to the highest setting (D-rest temp/psi), I leave it there or go without anything in a sealed up keg. You may want to take samples for gravity or tasting for diacetyl to make sure along the way. Then I take it down to 33*F for a couple of days prior to transfer. Just find a good lager schedule you like and follow it for temperatures. Afterwords, I have beer in a serving keg that is carbonated and ready to serve (if it doesn't require more aging).
WortMonger, thanks for the tips. I just mashed in at 6am and I'm looking forward to this beer when finished. I want to see what this beer tastes like when compared side by side. I'm going to search the thread on when and what temperature I should do the D rest at, but this group of closed pressure fermenters rock! My 5 year old just came down the stairs to the basment and yelled, boy that smells good!
Happy Sunday
Happy Sunday
OP
OP
LOL, yep. My 7 & 3 yr olds came home with their momma one day when I was just finishing up my mash. They were all about how good it smelled. Then, I started the boil and added hops. They no longer liked the smell! :cross: LOL.
Your D-rest is normally 5-10 degrees higher than your fermentation temperature, and this group does ROCK!!!!:rockin:
Then, I started the boil and added hops. They no longer liked the smell! :cross: LOL.Your D-rest is normally 5-10 degrees higher than your fermentation temperature, and this group does ROCK!!!!:rockin:
Timer set to turn beer machine on at 5am, mashed in 22lbs of grain with a thicker mash than normal, HERM'D away for 75 minutes until iodine test shows total conversion, fly sparged until I had 12gal in the kettle, 60 minute boil on, cleaned out Mash Tun and started Oxyclean in Tun, boil down turn heat exchanger into cool mode, top up to 11 gallons from boil off, split batch into pressure fermenter for Black Lager and Carboy for Black Ale, recirculate oxyclean in heat exchanger, then iodophor solution following, beer machine put away before noon.
Huge thanks again for the off topic answers on lager fermentation and apologies in advance for my little Mastercard moment.
Huge thanks again for the off topic answers on lager fermentation and apologies in advance for my little Mastercard moment.
OP
OP
Yep, so I'm sick but decided to brew anyways. I got a semi-stuck sparge, which produced a brilliantly clear wort run-off. However, this started me on the track for collecting and just boiling the next day. So, I started the boil this morning and everything went great. Topped up with pre-boiled water that had cooled to get my temperature down a little faster, and then chilled to 65*F. I pitched the yeast in my lauter grant during my recirculation once I was at temperature, then knocked out to my primary keg. Sealed it up, rolled it into the house, and tapped it with my spunding valve. I am very curious to see how fast this rocket takes off!!!
I have to say, going this slow for the run-off wasn't fun, but man that is the cleanest wort I have ever had. This is going to be a good one.
I have to say, going this slow for the run-off wasn't fun, but man that is the cleanest wort I have ever had. This is going to be a good one.
I just did the calculation on my efficiency and overshot my OG by a full point. Target OG 1.049 - actual OG 1.06. I think this is due to the thicker mash in the HERM. My Mash in volume was 1.125 qt per pound So it was a slower looking recirculation which had me a bit concerned but I rolled with it. I also ramped the recirculation up to 182 and then fly sparged. I think a combination of those gave me an 86% efficiency when I built my grain bill on a 70% efficiency.
OP
OP
Mine took off like a rocket! This morning I was leaving for work and had to set the pressure on my SV to 10 psi. It was showing 16 and I didn't want to release down to 5 psi that fast, since I have a full fermenter. I will set it at 5 after work, then set it for carbonation tomorrow before I leave for work. If I don't hurry and do this I might finish before I have my wanted carbonation. This beer is going to finish fast, I can tell. I might even just leave it at 10 and up it tomorrow. I don't see what lowering it would do since growth has to be done/almost done anyways. God I love how easy this is!
OP
OP
Wow, I came home to the beer above 15 psi, even though the SV was set to 10 psi. There was about an oz of yeast all around the floor around the keg. I put a maxi pad underneath the pressure outlet to catch the slow drip that happens every now and then. LOL, I know, funny!!! This beer smells fantastic fermenting and I am thinking about jacking the pressure up to 30 psi tonight. I have a feeling this beer will be done with primary tomorrow sometime and I don't want to miss out on the free carbonation and time it frees up. I'm not worried about the yeast. They are for sure in high krausen and ready to eat everything they can get their mitts on.
cmuench
Well-Known Member
My Scottish 80 made it up to 32 psi @ 65 degrees. I'm crash cooling now for the next week. Beersmith calculates the pressure will be 7.75 at 33 degrees. Does that seem right? Will it drop that much?
So far I'm impressed with the ease of this technique. Next batch I'm doing with foam control to keep my fridge clean. Other than that rock solid!!
So far I'm impressed with the ease of this technique. Next batch I'm doing with foam control to keep my fridge clean. Other than that rock solid!!
OP
OP
What volumes of CO2 do you want? According to style, you should want between 1.5 volumes to 2.3 volumes of carbonation. This is equivalent to 0.00 psi to 6.79 psi respectively at 33*F, according to BeerSmith. I'm getting different numbers from you on BeerSmith??? I usually have the pressure I want before crash cooling since getting a SV that can handle the higher pressures at higher temperature (old one only went to 20 psi release), then I just un-tap and let her chill for a week before re-tapping prior to transfer. I have never had BeerSmith say zero before, and your 7.75 is higher than the 2.3 volumes at 33*F on my software so I am very confused which one of us is right. Are you shooting for 2.3 volumes or higher?cmuench said:
OP
OP
Yay, my ferment seems to be done releasing pressure. Of course I won't really know without a sample, but I trust by this Sunday I can assume full attenuation. I will leave it set at 30 psi and 70-72*F and un-tap it Monday morning. Then I will roll the keg every day for another week, take a taste sample, then roll it to the garage where it is a cool 60ish*F for another week before transferring it to my serving kegs. This might actually be drinkable by Thanksgiving day!!!!! I have had luck before with a 3 week grain-to-glass, maybe I will get lucky again. This was one ferocious ferment for sure! If the beer taste as good as it smells, I am sold on dry yeast.
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