water for american premium lager

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schematix

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In preparation for a summer party I am going to be making a 10G batch of an american lager in a few weeks.

To keep within the style I have planned a fairly straight forward recipe:

13.5lbs 2-row (75%)
4.5lbs flaked rice (25%)

Expecting around 1.052. Cluster hops to about 18-22 IBU.

I was trying to come up with a water profile for this but this isn't going as smoothly as i was expecting (expected pH is very high).

Anyone know why bru'n'water has bicarbonate in the american lager profile?

Anyone have suggestions where to go with this water?
 
Target a mash pH of 5.3-5.4 (you will need some acid or acid malt in the mash) and keep everything else low. You can go up to 80-100 ppm with calcium, using calcium chloride to get there if needed, using 50-80 ppm of chloride. That's about it- the idea is to have a low alkalinity water and target a proper mash pH.
 
Target a mash pH of 5.3-5.4 (you will need some acid or acid malt in the mash) and keep everything else low. You can go up to 80-100 ppm with calcium, using calcium chloride to get there if needed, using 50-80 ppm of chloride. That's about it- the idea is to have a low alkalinity water and target a proper mash pH.

This hits on the root of my question. Why does bru'n'water specify bicarbonate in the american lager profile, while the yellow profiles do not? What's the benefit of having bicarbonate AND acid?

This is a pretty straight forward exercise with the yellow profiles and the acid.
 
I wouldn't worry about bicarbonate unless you are starting with RO. I've yet to hear someone explain target residual alkalinity, but would really love someon to point me to that comment.
 
Um, the bicarbonate is in the American Lager profile because that is exactly what is in the brewery's water that I was consulting for. They use nanofiltration and that is the resulting profile. They do adjust the mash pH in the tun and you should too. That means that the resulting bicarbonate content and alkalinity will be lower in the tun in order to produce a desirable pH.

RA is not a target! Only the resulting mash pH is a true target. As far as I'm concerned, RA is just a suggestion and its a approximate indicator of how the water will react with a particular grist. While RA is useful, it is not your brewing target.

I wouldn't boost the calcium content too high when brewing lagers. It can actually hurt lager yeast performance. I like the technique where you add all your calcium salts in the mashing water so that the mash Ca content is around 40 ppm and then have very little or no Ca in the sparging water so that the resulting kettle wort has fairly low Ca content.
 
Since I'm starting with RODI water can I just leave the bicarbonate out, and use less acid in the MLT, or is there a flavor contribution?

Is it appropriate to then sparge with pure RODI water?
 
Since I'm starting with RODI water can I just leave the bicarbonate out, and use less acid in the MLT, or is there a flavor contribution?

Is it appropriate to then sparge with pure RODI water?

Yes, and yes.

The 'need' for bicarbonate would only be to ensure a proper mash pH if you were using a very acidic grist. Say, for a stout or something like that and even then you could get there via baking soda.

RO is the perfect sparging water- no need to acidify that for sparging so it'd be ideal.
 
Anyone know why bru'n'water has bicarbonate in the american lager profile?

I don't know why it has bicarbonate in any of it's profiles unless this is an attempt to match the profile of some particular water supply on the theory that to make a beer similar to the beer made by some brewery one has to mimic its water. This theory has largely been put on the shelf. There is, occasionally, a reason to have alkalinity in brewing water. This is in cases where it is desired to have a mash pH higher than what would be obtained if the liquor contained no alkali and is usually associated with darker colored beers that have a large proportion of colored malts which can contain a fair amount of acid coupled with a base malt that has an unusually low DI mash pH with and unusually low buffering capacity.

In general for a pale beer, assuming you are starting from RO, use 1/2 gram of calcium chloride per gallon. That's really all you need in the mineral department to get started. Add more calcium chloride and calcium sulfate to taste. In most cases you will need some acid (sauermalz, lactic acid, phosphoric acid...).

Since I'm starting with RODI water can I just leave the bicarbonate out, and use less acid in the MLT, or is there a flavor contribution?

Is it appropriate to then sparge with pure RODI water?

Yes, yes, no, and yes.
 
I've yet to hear someone explain target residual alkalinity, but would really love someon to point me to that comment.

The pH of a mash is the pH at which the sum of the proton deficits of all the mash components equals 0. This simply means that pH shifts until the protons given up by acidic components are all absorbed by the basic components. There is one exception. When calcium in the water reacts with phosphate in the malt we get

10Ca++ + 6H2PO4- + 2H2O ---> Ca10(PO4)6(OH)2 + 14 H+

Thus, apparently, each 20/14 equivalent of calcium should supply 1 equivalent of protons and neutralized 1 equivalent of alkalinity. This would only be true were all the calcium to react and it doesn't. In fact it takes more than 3.5 mEq of calcium to produce enough protons to neutralize 1 mEq of alkalinity. We are speaking up to this point of only up to the mash. The calcium/phosphate reaction continue is the sparge and boil such that Kolbach observed empirically that 3.5 mEq could cancel 1 mEq as measured at knockout. In any event, RA is defined as

RA = alk - [Ca++]/3.5 - [Mg++]/7

Forgetting the Mg term this says that each mEq of calcium produces 1/3.5 mEq of protons which are absorbed by the alkalinity components (bicarbonate) in the water and thus effectively neutralize some of the alkalinity. If alkalinity is > [Ca++]/3.5 then clearly it won't all be neutralized and if alkalinity is < [Ca++]/3.5 there will be extra protons available to 'neutralize' something else and RA will be a negative number. In any case RA is the proton deficit of the water and thus an important part of the picture. The problem arises when spreadsheet and calculator authors try to combine the proton deficit of the water with the proton surfeits of, for example, added acids. There is really conceptually no reason why this can't be done if the bookkeeping is kept straight but as what has been set forth here isn't always understood and not made clear if it is this practice leads to trouble, misunderstanding and confusion.

Given a set of malts and a desired mash pH then there is indeed a 'target RA' but it needs to be properly and clearly defined. If we define it as the proton deficit of the water plus the proton deficit of any added acid or alkali we add (it is usually something like this that appears to be what the authors are shooting for) then the target RA is simply equal to and opposite in sign to the sum of the proton deficits of the other mash components (malts). So presented it doesn't seem that this would be very helpful to the brewer. I prefer to display the proton deficits of alkalinity, added salts, acids, bases and malts separately so that the brewer can see the effects of tweaking any one of these. It would be a simple matter for me to sum the deficits attributable to alkalinity and the deficit from the calcium phosphate reaction (a negative number as the reaction produces protons) but I don't see any advantage to that.

RA was originally cooked up as a way of comparing water supplies and for that it is good. Adding acid to mash until a spreadsheet reads a particular RA leaves something to be desired.

I know all this is probably confusing as the terminology is not familiar. It appears that the paper I wrote for MBAA TQ is finally going to be published (over a year since I presented it) and the early concepts are in the Palmer book so perhaps more brewers will become acquainted with it.
 
In general for a pale beer, assuming you are starting from RO, use 1/2 gram of calcium chloride per gallon. That's really all you need in the mineral department to get started. Add more calcium chloride and calcium sulfate to taste. In most cases you will need some acid (sauermalz, lactic acid, phosphoric acid...).

I am going to be making this beer next weekend so I was finalizing my numbers today. Here's my plan.

Mash Water: 0.5g/G CaCl2 + 0.4g/G CaSO4. I was going to leave out all Na, Mg and bicarbonate. B'n'W predicts a pH of 5.2 using 0.7ml/G Lactic acid. I wanted to aim at the low end of the pH range for this beer.

Sparge Water: Pure RODI

2 Questions:
1. Should I do a BK addition minerals? Same as the amount as from the mash?
2. Does 0.4g/G of CaSO4 seem about right?
 
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2 Questions:
1. Should I do a BK addition minerals? Same as the amount as from the mash?
2. Does 0.4g/G of CaSO4 seem about right?

I don't know (and can't figure out) what a 'BK addition minerals' is so I can't answer that one. The proposed gypsum addition seems a reasonable place to start.
 
I prefer to add complexity when warranted. What's going to get me the best possible beer in this case?
 
How could I possibly know that without knowing what your criterion of goodness is or anything about your personal taste?

Ha! After thousands of repetitive questions AJ finally snaps!

If you want complexity then there are more effective options - e.g. mash temperatures, malt bill, yeast selection, fermentation temperatures.
 
The answer wasn't meant to be snappy but it does amaze me that people seem to be unaware that best is in the eye of the beholder. I am an investor in a brewpub which is, effectively, owned by members of my brewing club. The annual meetings are most interesting. You get lots more "I can help you make a better Saison" comments than you do comments like "I don't really think the Saison is that authentic but I don't care as long as it sells". Embedded in those two comments are three very different implied definitions of "best". Best =:
1)The way I like it
2)The most authentic
3)Sells best (the way the customers, ignorant troglogites though they be, like it).
 
Completely fair response and I didn't take it to be snappy. I wasn't being precise in what I was asking. So my apologies for the vagueness of my question. Part of that was due to an awakening 2 year old and me hitting send before I had completed my thoughts.

I am looking to make a clean crisp american lager that is geared towards being a crowd pleaser.

I feel that I have a pretty good grasp on the mash water. I understand well enough how to get the pH in range. The part that is new to me here is sparging with RO water. In the past i've always used the same mash and sparge water.

So I guess my question is more along the lines of am I going to be making a flat tasting beer by not adding the additional ions to the BK that I would normally get from the sparge water? Or will the amount in the mash be a good start?
 
Clearly the difference between sparging with RO water that has not been treated (without a kettle addition) as opposed to RO water that has been treated the same as the mash water (which I always thought of as being the easiest) is that the levels of flavor effecting ions (Cl-, SO4--) will be higher on one case than the other. These can be made up by adding salts to the kettle. What you have to do is brew at both mineral levels and see which is 1) crisp to your taste and 2) a crowd pleaser. You can help yourself in this investigation by using the lower mineral level option and then adding chloride and sulfate to the finished beer to see if additional amounts of those ions improve the beer. If they do, then add to the sparge water or kettle scaled appropriately. Don't expect to hit it the first time.
 
Ended up making this beer and its REALLY tart and lemony. Reminds me of Ed Worts apfelwein in a lot of ways.

Mash water was RODI + 0.5g/G CaCl2 + 0.4g/G gypsum + 0.6ml/G lactic acid. Sparge water was RODI. Mash thickness 1.5 qt/lb.

Recipe was: (10G)
13.5lbs Briess 2-row
4.5lbs rice
1lb rice hulls
1oz Cluster @ T: -60min for 12 IBU
OG 1.050. FG 1.011 ABV 5.1%

Mashed for about 3 hours (mash was glue), rising from 145 up to 165, sticking every few minutes.

Fermented with a bunch of Wy2042 @ 50F. Tastes really clean to me aside from the tartness.

Any suggestion on some post fermentation adjustments to try to make it not so tart and spritzy tasting? I was going to serve this for a party but not sure i want to put my brewing reputation on the line for this.
 
There is nothing here to suggest a source for tartness or lemon flavor. Certainly the lactic acid addition is modest enough and appropriate for the grain bill. A high level of tartness is best explained here I'm afraid by infection.
 
What i find to be most odd about this is that I did not detect this tartness 2 weeks ago when I racked. The beer has been stored at 35F ever since. Is there a bacteria or yeast that can do its thing at temps this low?

I've never knowingly had an infection problem before and my sanitation routine is probably more robust than most. All equipment, lines, pump, chiller, etc all get heat sanitized either during the process or outside the process. The fermenters get starsan. Chilled wort has virtually no exposure to open air.

I added some CaCl2 solution directly to the glass and that seemed to help increase the sweetness perception. A few grains of table salt also helped wake the beer up. But overall didn't eliminate the underlying tartness.

I'm going to tap keg #2 this afternoon and see if it has the same taste.

Thanks for the suggestion.
 
Is this the first time you've used lactic acid? Every acid I've used jumped out at my palate initially, but lactic the most. I get the exact taste you are describing from even half the standard taste threshold. I switched to phos, but it is not without its own palate subtleties. Run it by someone that doesn't drink your homebrew often to get a better idea. They probably won't taste the tartness and as you brew with the acid more it will fade on your palate as well.
 
Is this the first time you've used lactic acid? Every acid I've used jumped out at my palate initially, but lactic the most. I get the exact taste you are describing from even half the standard taste threshold. I switched to phos, but it is not without its own palate subtleties. Run it by someone that doesn't drink your homebrew often to get a better idea. They probably won't taste the tartness and as you brew with the acid more it will fade on your palate as well.

I've used lactic in the last couple brews instead of acidulated malt and I honestly don't taste anything unusual about those brews, or even the raw treated water itself.

I've got a neighbor coming over later who is a BMC drinker to try it as a second opinion. I need to figure out a way to get good feedback from him though. He's one of those nicest-guys-you'll-ever-meet and i suspect wouldn't say a bad thing even if i served him warm dog urine.
 
I didn't mean to say it is infection - just that infection seems the most likely explanation. If there is indeed infection the beer will likely be turbid or at least less than brilliantly clear. I assume you do not have a pH meter but if you do check the pH of the beer.
 
I am skeptical it's an infection but I'm not ruling it out just yet.

It is brilliantly clear. I just tapped the other keg and it's a totally different beer. No lemon tartness at all. Much less carbonated too. Definitely a 40 point beer for the style.

Can wine yeast (specifically Montrachet) work at low temps or survive a heavy dose of starsan? 50/50 this was an apfelwein keg in an immediately prior life. I fully disassembled, PBW cleaned and star san cleaned between batches but there are many similar flavors I detect.
 
I was going to suggest carbonic acid as a possible culprit, and the fact that the second keg lacks the tartness AND is much less carbonated, favors this possibility.
 
You seem to indicate that it's less carbonated.

Correct. The pour from the keg in question has much more foam and overall has a higher level of carbonation. I just gave my wife her 3rd taste (i gave her 2 samples of the "good" one and 1 of the questionable one), and she said the good beer was in fact good, and the other beer had a "winey" flavor to it. She knew there was a potential issue with one of them but didn't know which one i was giving her. She correctly identified the 2nd beer as being the same as the first beer.

At this point I think i'm in the clear to serve the good keg at the party. If we need the second keg, hopefully nobody can taste the difference by then! :tank:
 
Just serve the funky beer after serving the good one. Nobody will notice the difference if they've been enjoying enough of the first! :drunk:
 
I think you may have encouraged bacterial Sourness/acidification due to the three hour mash and you were already acidifying on the low end. Change the name to Tart Summer Pilsner and don't look back.
 
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