Young IPA green flavor

[HopHead73]

Brewed Trillium's Sleeper Street clone from BYO.
Recipe called for a technique I haven't tried before. After only 5 days of fermenting in the carboy it said to transfer to a keg and dry hop under pressure for about a week and then do a keg to keg transfer to serving keg and carbonate.
I've never pulled a beer off the yeast cake this early so I feel like it didn't get enough time for the yeast to clean themselves up.
After I transferred to the serving keg I opened up the dry hop keg and got a huge kick of hop aroma from the 5.5oz of El Dorado and 1oz of CTZ hops that were in there. However, when I poured a tasting glass I don't get that same aroma from the beer. I know its not carbonated enough to drive the aroma out, but what I do smell is a slight green apple smell and it had a very green flavor.
After being in the keezer for 3 days and starting to carbonate the flavor is getting somewhat better, but the smell is still there.
Suspect its Acetaldehyde since I pulled it off the yeast cake so fast.

Anyone have experience with this technique of dry hopping and kegging?
I know RDWHAHB, but just wanted to see other people's opinions if the flavor and smell will go away and become less green.
Would taking it out of the keezer for a few days at room temp help the yeast in suspension clean up?

 

[brick_haus]

So many variables come into play. Nobody can justify recommending simply transferring to keg after 5 days. You may get sufficient fermentation after 5 days if your pitch rate is correct, yeast was healthy, oxygenation was sufficient, ferm temps are precisely controlled and more...
That being said... I have an IIPA that I often brew, and have for years, that I ferment for one week, dry hop (still on yeast cake) for another week, keg/quick carb and serve 14 days after brewing. But all aforementioned variable as well as my processs have proven to be compatible with my recipe.
But I always check gravity before taking the next step...

 

[HopHead73]

So many variables come into play. Nobody can justify recommending simply transferring to keg after 5 days. You may get sufficient fermentation after 5 days if your pitch rate is correct, yeast was healthy, oxygenation was sufficient, ferm temps are precisely controlled and more...
That being said... I have an IIPA that I often brew, and have for years, that I ferment for one week, dry hop (still on yeast cake) for another week, keg/quick carb and serve 14 days after brewing. But all aforementioned variables have proven to be compatible with my recipe.
But I always check gravity before taking the next step...

Gravity did hit my target of 1.010 after 5 days. OG was 1.067.
Fermented with 1L starter with 2 packs of Wyeast 1098 British Ale. 60seconds of oxygen with diffusion stone and oxygen tank at ~2.5L/M rate.
Started at 64 and let it finish at 68degrees in temp controlled converted freezer to cool with heat wrap to warm. Temp stays within a degree of set temp.
Dry hopped at 64-66 degrees in keg.

 

[brick_haus]

Maybe try it by dry hopping in the fermentor instead of the secondary to allow the yeast to clean up after themselves. I also dry hop and let the pressure build in the fermentor, but I have a fermenter that can handle the pressure, and a spunding valve.

 

[HopHead73]

Maybe try it by dry hopping in the fermentor instead of the secondary to allow the yeast to clean up after themselves. I also dry hop and let the pressure build in the fermentor, but I have a fermenter that can handle the pressure, and a spunding valve.

What kind of fermenter do you use?
I typically use a glass carboy with a blow off tube and the secondary is a corny keg with a spunding valve.

I was testing the dry hopping in the keg under pressure as BYO stated that it would prevent the hop aroma from being scrubbed out by the release of CO2 through the airlock.

 

[brick_haus]

I use a Brewhemouth conical fermentor. Good to 100psi. I cap the blow off port after a week and use the spunding valve/ball lock post combo for adding/controlling pressure. View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1494295271.620589.jpg

 

[MrHopScotch]

I have never used a schedule quite like the one you describe, but I also suspect that 5 days is just too soon, especially for a recipe that is new to you. It's good that you checked the gravity, but often the yeast need time to clean up some of the flavors they produced during fermentation for a few days after hitting terminal gravity.

I do a lot of low to moderate gravity batches with Nottingham and often get some sulfur aroma right as I reach terminal gravity after 5 days or so, but that goes away after a few more days on the yeast cake.

The big boys can get away with fermentation schedules like that -sometimes transferring to a brite tank after just a few days - but they typically pitch a ton of super healthy yeast and determine the end of fermentation by monitoring the reduction of off-flavor compounds by tasting and some really expensive chemistry instrumentation.

tl;dr:
It sounds like you are on the right track figuring out this issue, and just packaged a bit too soon. Next time, trust your nose as well as the gravity, and packackage as soon as it tastes ready - but no sooner!

Cheers!

 

[HopHead73]

I use a Brewhemouth conical fermentor. Good to 100psi. I cap the blow off port after a week and use the spunding valve/ball lock post combo for adding/controlling pressure. View attachment 399752

I would love to use a conical, but I have a 5cu ft chest freezer I ferment in so having to lift it out would defeat the purpose.
Someday may look at the SS Brewtech with their temp control and ditch the chest freezer.

 

[HopHead73]

I have never used a schedule quite like the one you describe, but I also suspect that 5 days is just too soon, especially for a recipe that is new to you. It's good that you checked the gravity, but often the yeast need time to clean up some of the flavors they produced during fermentation for a few days after hitting terminal gravity.

I do a lot of low to moderate gravity batches with Nottingham and often get some sulfur aroma right as I reach terminal gravity after 5 days or so, but that goes away after a few more days on the yeast cake.

The big boys can get away with fermentation schedules like that -sometimes transferring to a brite tank after just a few days - but they typically pitch a ton of super healthy yeast and determine the end of fermentation by monitoring the reduction of off-flavor compounds by tasting and some really expensive chemistry instrumentation.

tl;dr:
It sounds like you are on the right track figuring out this issue, and just packaged a bit too soon. Next time, trust your nose as well as the gravity, and packackage as soon as it tastes ready - but no sooner!

Cheers!

I'll just have to let it sit and carbonate and see if any of the off flavor and smell dissipate.
And learn my lesson and try a different approach next batch.

 

[oujens]

I'm not so sure pulling the beer after 5 days is the issue. Keg spunding seems to indicate that should not be a problem. The off-flavor and loss of aroma tends to point a finger at oxidation. With two transfers, it could be a possibility. Another issue cited with the off-flavor is lack of a healthy fermentation. Are you seeing bubbles when adding oxygen to the wort? It's possible that a lot of your o2 is escaping the solution so not enough oxygen was dissolved in the wort. That in combination with a higher OG might be a culprit. You might want to dial back the flow and oxygenate longer.

 

[HopHead73]

I'm not so sure pulling the beer after 5 days is the issue. Keg spunding seems to indicate that should not be a problem. The off-flavor and loss of aroma tends to point a finger at oxidation. With two transfers, it could be a possibility. Another issue cited with the off-flavor is lack of a healthy fermentation. Are you seeing bubbles when adding oxygen to the wort? It's possible that a lot of your o2 is escaping the solution so not enough oxygen was dissolved in the wort. That in combination with a higher OG might be a culprit. You might want to dial back the flow and oxygenate longer.

That is an interesting thought.
Never thought about O2 escaping through the surface bubbles during oxygenating the wort.
When I transferred to the dry hop keg I purged the keg with CO2 and transfer to serving keg was a pressurized transfer with the keg completely purged of O2 so oxygen contact was extremely limited.
But, unhealthy fermentation from a too high of flow of O2 is intriguing. That would possibly explain an issue I had with a porter I did a few batches ago that finished with a very yeasty off flavor. And then my lower OG honey brown ale that came out great was ok cause enough O2 did dissolve.

 

[oujens]

That is an interesting thought.
Never thought about O2 escaping through the surface bubbles during oxygenating the wort.
When I transferred to the dry hop keg I purged the keg with CO2 and transfer to serving keg was a pressurized transfer with the keg completely purged of O2 so oxygen contact was extremely limited.
But, unhealthy fermentation from a too high of flow of O2 is intriguing. That would possibly explain an issue I had with a porter I did a few batches ago that finished with a very yeasty off flavor. And then my lower OG honey brown ale that came out great was ok cause enough O2 did dissolve.

There has been a lot of back and forth on the topic of limiting oxygen throughout the process. I found the low oxygen brewing website to have some good info on both these topics listed above. It made me realize my cold side practices may not be as sound as I thought they were. I don't mean to push that process on you, but if anything made me realize where some of my issues are occurring, especially with hoppy beers. I think we could all agree cold side oxygen exposure is an area that we can't quite limit like the big guys can, but there are ways we can get closer. Might be worth a look if you are interested.

 

[HopHead73]

There has been a lot of back and forth on the topic of limiting oxygen throughout the process. I found the low oxygen brewing website to have some good info on both these topics listed above. It made me realize my cold side practices may not be as sound as I thought they were. I don't mean to push that process on you, but if anything made me realize where some of my issues are occurring, especially with hoppy beers. I think we could all agree cold side oxygen exposure is an area that we can't quite limit like the big guys can, but there are ways we can get closer. Might be worth a look if you are interested.

Well you sent me down the rabbit hole, in a good way haha.

LowOxygenBrewing has some great info and made me really re-evaluate my cold side practices and I definitely see some holes where I thought I was ok with limiting O2 exposure. But, going back into my tasting notes I definitely feel like, especially my hoppy ales, are lacking in hop character and most tend to have that muted, "stale" character that I never really connected to oxidation until now.

Dialing back the O2 flow and let it run longer to get more O2 dissolved into solution before fermentation is a must.

Then I currently use the morebeer sterile siphon:

I looked at parts I had and am able to retrofit it with a CO2 line to my tank and a liquid line to the keg out port.
Going to try a Better Bottle next batch, as they are rated for 15psi, so I can do a pressurized transfer from carboy to keg at 2-3psi (my heavy glass carboy is becoming a ***** to lift and don't want to test cracking it with too much pressure). This should greatly reduce O2 exposure when transferring from carboy, which I think this is my biggest hole in my system.

As for dry hopping I'm going to try dropping first hop addition after about 5 days of fermentation in the primary so the CO2 being produced and still active yeast can help scrub any O2 released by the hops.
Let it sit and around day 12 do the pressurized transfer to keg which is fully purged with CO2 and already has the 2nd dry hop addition suspended from the keg lid.
Let sit for a couple days and then either transfer to serving keg under pressure, or simply pull the dry hops out and reseal the lid and purge the headspace.

 

[oujens]

The thread below is a method I have switched to for fermenting. The corny keg serves as a cheap vessel that can hold pressure. At the same time we are using the natural co2 from fermentation to further purge the serving keg. Just another idea to consider, or maybe you can take some of this and add it to your setup. I may be sacrificing some beer, but I'll do it if I can get a more stable product in the end until I can upgrade to a different vessel (if I even choose to do so).

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=600563

For dry hopping, I assume you saw their recommendation for this on the website. You might need to check gravity on day 3 or 4 to make sure there are a few gravity points left when you add the hops. The yeast are better at scavenging oxygen when food is present (see the yeast deoxygenation method for strike water). They also recommend that once the dry hop is complete to add priming sugar to the fermenting vessel to activate the yeast so they can scavenge any potential oxygen pickup into the serving keg. This is an added layer of protection even though you already purged the serving vessel. You can also use your spunding valve to carb the beer. You might find with better preservation of the hop flavor and aroma, you may not need that second dry hop addition.

Its a lot of info to grasp, but its really not too difficult to implement some of these practices with what you have on hand. Hopefully that will help. My experience so far has been positive. Hope that can address some of your issues. Good Luck!

 

[marjen]

I also dont think its the time you are leaving it in the fermenter. I have have been making these beers reguarly for the last couple of months and I only leave mine in the fermenter 6-7 days. Drinkable on day one after begging, though it does improve so that about 4-6 days after I take it out of the fermenter it really tastes great.

 

[HopHead73]

They also recommend that once the dry hop is complete to add priming sugar to the fermenting vessel to activate the yeast so they can scavenge any potential oxygen pickup into the serving keg. This is an added layer of protection even though you already purged the serving vessel.

So this sounds like a very good idea to get any yeast in suspension to wake up and scrub off any O2 released from the dry hops in the keg.
Anyone have any suggestion with how much dextrose to use in a 5gallon batch?
Such as a 1/4cup of sugar boiled in a cup of water

 

[oujens]

So this sounds like a very good idea to get any yeast in suspension to wake up and scrub off any O2 released from the dry hops in the keg.
Anyone have any suggestion with how much dextrose to use in a 5gallon batch?
Such as a 1/4cup of sugar boiled in a cup of water

I have never done this with a keg. I've read that you use half the amount you would for bottling, and I've read you should use the full amount. If you attach your spunding valve to carbonate at the same time, you should be able to avoid over carbonating the beer. I would think using the full amount wouldn't hurt flavor, but I'm not sure. I'm interested in other brewer's experiences as well.

 

[HopHead73]

I have never done this with a keg. I've read that you use half the amount you would for bottling, and I've read you should use the full amount. If you attach your spunding valve to carbonate at the same time, you should be able to avoid over carbonating the beer. I would think using the full amount wouldn't hurt flavor, but I'm not sure. I'm interested in other brewer's experiences as well.

I read one post where the brewer stated that they boil a cup of water and add 2-4oz of sugar. Then add it to the fermenter, wait about an hour and then do a pressurized transfer to the keg with hops in it.
They didn't state though at what point they did this in terms of fermentation. I'm assuming you would do it after 7-12 days in primary so there are still some yeast that will be active.

 

[oujens]

I read one post where the brewer stated that they boil a cup of water and add 2-4oz of sugar. Then add it to the fermenter, wait about an hour and then do a pressurized transfer to the keg with hops in it.
They didn't state though at what point they did this in terms of fermentation. I'm assuming you would do it after 7-12 days in primary so there are still some yeast that will be active.

Its similar to bottle conditioning...Once fermentation has ended and you are done dry hopping, add the sugar solution, wait an hour and then transfer. Your 7-12 days is probably ball park for that. You will have plenty of yeast still in suspension to do the work.

If I'm doing this I would:

1) check gravity on day 2-4 of fermentation to monitor FG.
2) Once 4-6 points to FG, add dry hops and purge headspace
3) Once dry hop period is done and FG is confirmed, add sugar solution (might be able to pour through the PRV if you unscrew it), purge headspace, wait an hour and then close transfer to purged serving keg.
4) Add co2 to serving keg to set spunding pressure, attach spunding valve and carbonate (I assume psi would need to be around 27-30 psi at room temp)
5) If hops were added to SK as well, tie on a string through the lid and lift out of wort once complete. Keep it tied so it doesn't fall back down and do not open the lid again. Keep that oxygen out

 

[HopHead73]

So as a follow up, I just transferred my last batch from dry hop keg to serving keg today.
I did the first dry hop addition 4 days into fermentation, after 10days added 1oz of corn sugar (in a cup of boiled water and chilled) to the carboy, waited an hour and then did a CO2 pressurized transfer to a purged keg with the 2nd dry hop addition in it. And then 4 days later transferred to the purged serving keg.
I invested in a DO meter and got a reading of .05ppm on this batch. Much better than the .90ppm the IPA I originally posted about that tasted like crap.
This batch on the other hand taste like a juicy hop forward New England IPA, just like I intended.
Thanks for the tips everyone! They all helped.

Also, just purchased the SS Brewtech Brew Bucket with the 1.5" triclamp pressurized lid adapter to do pressurized transfers.
The battle against O2 is finally being won!

Cheers all

 

[oujens]

So as a follow up, I just transferred my last batch from dry hop keg to serving keg today.
I did the first dry hop addition 4 days into fermentation, after 10days added 1oz of corn sugar (in a cup of boiled water and chilled) to the carboy, waited an hour and then did a CO2 pressurized transfer to a purged keg with the 2nd dry hop addition in it. And then 4 days later transferred to the purged serving keg.
I invested in a DO meter and got a reading of .05ppm on this batch. Much better than the .90ppm the IPA I originally posted about that tasted like crap.
This batch on the other hand taste like a juicy hop forward New England IPA, just like I intended.
Thanks for the tips everyone! They all helped.

Also, just purchased the SS Brewtech Brew Bucket with the 1.5" triclamp pressurized lid adapter to do pressurized transfers.
The battle against O2 is finally being won!

Cheers all

Great to hear! It's amazing to see the difference in your DO readings. I don't have a meter but I am certain my previous beers were just as high. I'm wondering if you can get that to zero on beers that require one less transfer.

 

[maxxxx]

Here's what I do. Dry hop in the primary after 7 days of fermentation, dry hop again 2 days later, 2 days after that cold crash for 2 days. Rack cold flat beer to serving kegs, carbonate @ 35psi @ 36 deg. F. for 24 hours. After that, bleed off excess pressure and set psi to serving pressure, around 8psi. Beer should be carbonated and ready to go.

 

[Little_Lebowski]

Does anyone take the time to purge the headspace of their primary fermenter with co2 as to limit o2 intake during the lag time before fermentation kicks off? I've read this somewhere once but never tried it myself and never really saw much mention of it since.

 

[brick_haus]

I actually add O2 to the wort and therefore the headspace

 

[Little_Lebowski]

I actually add O2 to the wort and therefore the headspace

Well, yes that is true but I'm speaking in a different sense. I guess this conversation was really leaning towards DO control but I guess that's for another topic

 

[lawdawg]

I think the idea of drinking beer while it's young doesn't mean you sacrifice fermentation. I've heard Heady Topper is 28 days grain to glass. A month old beer is still pretty young in my opinion. I prefer to let primary go for at least 2-3 weeks and then dry hop (in primary) for about 4 days (2 days room temp and 2 days cold crash) just prior to kegging and force carbing. For my IPA's (and most ales except browns) grain to glass is usually about 4 weeks. I have made some decent IPA's grain to glass in about 3 weeks with some success but I think they are better if they are not rushed. This goes for almost any beer I brew. Cheers!

 

[Little_Lebowski]

Does anyone care to elaborate any further into the whole adding a bit of priming sugar just prior to kegging? Curious to hear more about it.

 

[oujens]

Does anyone care to elaborate any further into the whole adding a bit of priming sugar just prior to kegging? Curious to hear more about it.

The idea is that simply purging a keg with co2 is not enough to eliminate all oxygen in the keg. This is a limitation at the homebrew level. To make sure none of this dissolves in your beer during transfer, you add priming sugar to reactivate the yeast which will consume any available oxygen. This will add protection against oxidation while kegging. The other option is to transfer with a few points of gravity remaining to achieve the same result. ******************** has some good reads on cold side practices that I've found extremely helpful.

 

[Little_Lebowski]

The idea is that simply purging a keg with co2 is not enough to eliminate all oxygen in the keg. This is a limitation at the homebrew level. To make sure none of this dissolves in your beer during transfer, you add priming sugar to reactivate the yeast which will consume any available oxygen. This will add protection against oxidation while kegging. The other option is to transfer with a few points of gravity remaining to achieve the same result. ******************** has some good reads on cold side practices that I've found extremely helpful.

I get the concept by now, several people have posted the vague idea of adding sugar before kegging.. I guess what I'm asking for is more specifics on when, how much, what temps, when and how to put it on gas? That sort of thing

 

[oujens]

I get the concept by now, several people have posted the vague idea of adding sugar before kegging.. I guess what I'm asking for is more specifics on when, how much, what temps, when and how to put it on gas? That sort of thing

My bad...I had a quick explanation how I would do it on post #19. My information on the process comes from feedback on ********************. I haven't nailed down a specific amount of sugar needed, but I lean towards using the full amount I would use for bottle conditioning and allowing my spunding valve to vent excess co2. I would add the sugar at the same temp I finished at and let it sit there for a couple of weeks. Then add gas when you are ready to serve since the beer is fully carbonated.

 

[Little_Lebowski]

Gotcha. Thanks! I didn't realize it was that drawn out. That site does have a good amount of info but 100% commitment on a homebrew level is almost cult like haha. I'm gonna try a few pointers for sure. Just looking for anything to help boost that hop freshness