Yeast Starters....Just starting and ordered some things

[fendersrule]

1) Step 1: 1 Liter Stir Plate Starter
2) When Step 1 is finished (attenuated), cold crash and decant.
3) Step 2: Add 1.4 Liters wort, return to Stir Plate
4) When step 2 is finished (attenuated), cold crash, decant, and pitch into your beer wort.

Thanks for this. I started playing around iwth some step calculators. Every one is a bit different.

I'm calculating needing a 1.0 Pitch Rate being that this is high gravity. I'm also assuming 92 Billion initial cell count. Fresh, but not right off the press fresh.

I basically went to a few sites and plugged in what you added.

MoreBeer says I need 540 billion cells. At the end of the second step I would have 509 billion.

BrewersFriend says I need 540 billion cells as well. They say at the end of the second step I'd have 392 billion.

@IslandLizard, I input this information in brewunited and it's pretty darn close to BrewersFriend's output. One thing I don't like about this calculator is that you cannot have seperate starter details per each step. No like-y on that.

I think I'm going to need a bigger starter here....

 

[VikeMan]

I'm calculating needing a 1.0 Pitch Rate being that this is high gravity. I'm also assuming 92 Billion initial cell count. Fresh, but not right off the press fresh.

By 1.0 pitch rate, do you mean 1M per ml per degree plato? If so, keep in mind that the "per degree plato" part of that already accounts for high gravity. A more "standard" 0.75 M per ml per degree plato ale rate may be just fine. That said, I do pitch my Imperial Stouts a bit higher.

 

[fendersrule]

Looks like that's what it means. Just to stick with Brewer's friend for now, the resulting pitch of doing a 1L, 1.4L, 2-step starter would result in .73M cells per degree plato for 6 Gallons of 1.100 OG.

This may be a good time to break out the DME for this one as using Propper Starter could get expensive. I think this beer also requires breaking out the 1G Vessel for a starter.

The calculator supports this as being a healthy pitch:

1L, 2L = .94M Cells per degree plato.

 

[IslandLizard]

I think this beer also requires breaking out the 1G Vessel for a starter.

You'd need a pretty strong stir plate to stir 4-5 liter starter batches.
Since you do 10 gallon batches, having 2 stir plates may be better than one.
That will also give you more versatility than one large starter vessel.

Don't know about you, I can't put a 5 gallon flask in my kitchen fridge without removing a shelf, which would cause other issues. And I'm in charge of the kitchen...
But two 2-liter flasks (or gallon jugs) fit nicely in the milk tray, side by side, with a piece of foam between them to prevent kissing.

 

[fendersrule]

Looks like she fits just fine.
There won’t be 4-5L in it though.

decanted 1L (I don’t know what would this be about 300ML?) + 2L, so about 2.5L or so maximum that needs to be stirred.

Here's a review showing a guy stiring 4000ML of liquid with the small StirStarter. I should be good to go. Hands on Review: StirStarter Stir Plate!

And yes, I'm still working on that damn wine. I drank what I could in the past couple nights.

 

[fendersrule]

Here's my current 1L Starter after 24 hours. I'd like to get this in the fridge soon for tomorrow's 3PM pitching. My original schedule had me keeping it on the stirrer until 10PM tonight (another 7 hours).

I can easily and clearly see that there are lots of yeasties in suspension.

 

[Golddiggie]

Welp, I've already picked up another recipe. For this one, it's time to dive into the deep end. Let me first try using some fuzzy math. Let me know what your guys's calculator says.

I want to use 1 pack of liquid yeast. It's pretty fresh..assume 96% viability.

The OG is going to be 1.100. Yes, it's a Russian Imperial Stout, and 6 Gallons of it.

Mr. Malty says if using 1 pack, then I'm going to want 3.88L worth of starter. I think that basically means 3 steps of starter (4 total).

Create starter. Let it go for 24 hours, cold crash, decant, then fill it up with another Propper starter + water + nutrients. Then do it again. Then do it one more time.

Do I have this down correctly?

I'm wondering if my 2L flask will handle that....what do you guys think?

May be a good time to break out the Wine Growler.

You know what they about assumption, right?? It's the mother of all f*ckups.

I never assume viability when it comes to my yeasties. It's easy enough to enter the dates from the packs (even when Wyeast has changed HOW they mark them, just -6 months from the date on the pack now). I also tend to move the date according to when I'll be brewing, since it's NOT the day I run the numbers. Which means I shift it back a week, or two. While that probably doesn't make that much of a difference, I still do it often enough. That might be getting a bit too much into the weeds, but I've not had a bad experience/batch when doing it.

As for using your tap water in the starter, do try NOT to do that in the future. Especially if you're on city water since it WILL have chlorine in it. IMO, any amount of chlorine in a batch is too much. I've been fortunate in that I've always had ways to remove that from my brewing water, when it's present. I'd advise getting one of the better under sink filtering systems readily available that removes chlorine, as well as other negative items, from your water. The better ones come with easy to change filter cartridges (mine has three) and a spigot that goes into the sink (mine was installed to the left of the faucet area). The one I have runs under $220 on Amazon (Watts Premier 531130 Filter-Pure UF-3 3-Stage Water Filtration System - WQA Certified - Undersink Water Filtration Systems - Amazon.com). I paid $150 back in March of 2014 for mine.

 

[Golddiggie]

Here's my current 1L Starter after 24 hours. I'd like to get this in the fridge soon for tomorrow's 3PM pitching. My original schedule had me keeping it on the stirrer until 10PM tonight (another 7 hours).

I can easily and clearly see that there are lots of yeasties in suspension.
View attachment 706626

I always wait until it's 100% done before cold crashing it for 24-48 hours (even with high flocculation yeast). That starter doesn't look done yet. The foam will go away and, depending on the strain, you'll see large clumps of yeast spinning around in the flask.

BTW, the foam stoppers might be a contributing factor for why mine tend to finish quickly (<24 hours for fresh yeast, often <18 hours for the second or third step). Since it allows a LOT of gas exchange between the starter wort and the atmosphere without any risk of nasties coming inside. They're cheap too. Although they don't seem as good as the ones I have from years back. Trying to find the larger ones that are stiffer compared with the new ones I picked up. I have put the older ones through several PBW/Starsan cycles without issue. Did that with a newer one and after the second use it was falling apart. They keep making things cheaper and cheaper.

 

[fendersrule]

Yea. I was about to dump it yesterday, but members in my beer club told me I'm fine and to stop worrying about it. and dumping it would be stupid since our water is pretty decent. The funny thing is that I bought a 6-pack of spring water bottles JUST for this. I even had it sitting on the counter right next to me when I was making a starter. Duh. I'll be fine, but yes in the future I plan to use water bottles.

Wyeast is definitely not exactly +6 months as I learned a few days ago (see other post). I got a package that was marked "Best by May xx", which would be impossible because that's over 6 months out. WTF.

Either way, I'm assuming 91% variability for the second larger starter that I'm making soon (Has a best by mid April date), and I'm assuming 98% viability for the one I'm currently making (which is the one that doesn't make sense...must be very new). Doesn't matter too much either way for this one because the OG is going to be around 1.059-1.061 so it will be plenty!

I'd like a whole-house system because I pull my water from an outside facet when I brew.

 

[fendersrule]

I always wait until it's 100% done before cold crashing it for 24-48 hours (even with high flocculation yeast). That starter doesn't look done yet. The foam will go away and, depending on the strain, you'll see large clumps of yeast spinning around in the flask.

Thanks for the info. Do you have pictures of what it should look like? I'm hoping in 7 more hours it will be done. If worst comes to worst I can just leave it on the stir plate for another night and not decant.

Brew day is definitely happening tomorrow regardless!

 

[Golddiggie]

I just use large graduated buckets (picked up from a restaurant supply place years ago) for the brew water. Fill in sink, bring to where I'm brewing and use where needed. That's one of the reasons I'm glad to have a "brew-*****" currently (my nephew). He does all the heavy lifting. He's in his early 20's, and I'm 50, so he can do that crap. Plus he gets to clean out the mash tun each time. Along with most everything else.

I do need to clean out what the mocha porter was aging in soon. I need the extraction cap that's in it for moving the English barley wine I made back in 2014 into serving kegs. Still good and over 16% ABV.

 

[Golddiggie]

Thanks for the info. Do you have pictures of what it should look like? I'm hoping in 7 more hours it will be done. If worst comes to worst I can just leave it on the stir plate for another night and not decant.

Brew day is definitely happening tomorrow regardless!

I don't have any pictures of that effect happening at this point. I might have years back, but didn't keep them. No foam on the top of the starter is one clue. Another is when you turn it off it will start to flocculate pretty fast. You'll still want to let it condense down to the bottom.

This is why I begin my starters a week ahead of the expected brew day. Even if it's only a single step starter.

 

[Golddiggie]

There's also been plenty of information out over the years about how too many "spring water" bottles are really just filled from a tap (not an actual spring or clean/untreated source). I'd trust water filtered on site FAR sooner than anything bottled. It also doesn't take many gallons through the filter system to get it to pay for itself compared with buying water.

 

[fendersrule]

Sounds good. So the foam on the top should go away...that should be one clue. Moving clumps of yeast is another clue (may not be true for all yeast?).

I don't think it's possible to see flocculation while the stir plate is on. I'd imagine I'd see that right now if I were to turn it off.

I'll leave it running and check back in with you guys tonight.

I read that some people pitch at high krausen. Interesting.

 

[Golddiggie]

I crash and condense my starter so that I'm left with only a small amount of starter wort going into my brew. It might be overkill and larger amounts might not impact the recipe. But, I've had great results with this method. So, if it works, do it. If you were making a 1bbl (or larger) batch size, the impact would be minute.

 

[fendersrule]

Is there a certain minimal time for cold crashing in order to do a successful decant? For example, is it worth doing if I could only cold crash for 14 hours?

I'd suspect the answer is "probably" and "yes" in my case, being that this starter is probably overkill for 5 gallons of 1.059. Loosing a little more yeast than normal from a "quick" cold crash will be neglable in my case since I really don't need every yeastie to have a super healthy pitch for this one.

 

[Golddiggie]

Depends on the yeast strain. I don't see you posting which yeast you made the starter with. High flocculation rated yeast will settle out a lot faster than medium, or low, rated yeasts. Most of the time when I use a high rated strain, it's good in about 24 hours. Since I tend to use 1335 for most of my brews (at least for the ones that benefit from it's character) it's never been an issue. Even the rare 1881-PC is rated as 'high'. As is 1728. I think the only one I've used that's NOT rated 'high' was 1098 (medium rating).

 

[fendersrule]

Yep...I'm using 1098....

 

[Golddiggie]

With 1098, I doubt it will fully settle overnight. Safer to let it have either a full 24 or even 48 hours to condense down. I'd move my brew day to next weekend if I was you, Why rush things and run the chance of getting something not as good as you could??

 

[fendersrule]

Or just don't decant....

.25 Gallons in a 5 Gallon batch is probably not going to be noticeable. If I choose to hold true to the brew day. That's about 5% of the batch.

Interesting experiment. http://brulosophy.com/2016/10/10/decanted-vs-full-yeast-starter-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Golddiggie]

Are you brewing all grain or extract?? If all grain, I wouldn't taint it with any extract that I could easily avoid with a little better planning (or moving the brew day). If you're already brewing extract, then make sure the recipe takes that into account.

I've been all grain since my third batch. Recipe control is key for me. Maybe I'm a purist, but I do everything possible to NOT put substandard items into my brew.

 

[fendersrule]

I think I'll brew on Monday.

All grain!

 

[IslandLizard]

Or just don't decant....

.25 Gallons in a 5 Gallon batch is probably not going to be noticeable. If I choose to hold true to the brew day. That's about 5% of the batch.

That's what I'd do. Keep it going until you're ready to pitch, tomorrow. Then pitch the whole thing.
Or better yet, keep some behind in a small jelly jar for a next starter round.
I seriously doubt anyone could taste the quart of oxidized starter beer you pitched along. Even 2 liters of it, maybe a challenge to detect.

In addition to a properly sized, healthy pitch, good wort oxygenation/aeration right before or right after pitching is just as important.
Even more so with your upcoming Imperial Stout. I would recommend to oxygenate that one twice, the 2nd time 8-12 hours* after pitching but before fermentation has started. [Edit] Judging that point can be tricky, because it should be done before krausen is appearing!
* Traditionally, a timeframe of 12-18 hours after pitching is given, but you may want to play it safe, and not miss it.

 

[fendersrule]

Krausen is decreasing.

 

[fendersrule]

In addition to a properly sized, healthy pitch, good wort oxygenation/aeration right before or right after pitching is just as important.
Even more so with your upcoming Imperial Stout. I would recommend to oxygenate that one twice, the 2nd time 8-12 hours* after pitching but before fermentation has started. [Edit] Judging that point can be tricky, because it should be done before krausen is appearing!
* Traditionally, a timeframe of 12-18 hours after pitching is given, but you may want to play it safe, and not miss it.

Not that this is a "do what I say, not what I do" thing, but I made this RIS before and used 2 packets of S-04. It started at 1.103 and worked itself to 1.023 in little time.

We did not shake it at all, ever. My co-brewer (it's mainly his beer) did not want to shake a 6 gallon glass carboy and declined my offer to do it. Took off well within 24 hours and performed really great. S-04 is a beast.

We experimented after we racked it by brewing another stout (a coffee recipe that we made) and just threw it right into the old primary carboy onto the hop/yeast trub. Didn't shake that one either. Didn't rinse or clean the yeast. Fermentation took off and performed excellent and we ended up with another 10.5%'er. This probably "broke" rules I'm sure, but it turned out very good.

Both beers came in exceptional. I still have a couple bottles and they are now 1 year old.

The only problem is due to the tasting preference--and that's the fact that S-04 finishes dry and too clean and didn't match what a Russian Imperial Stout should finish like. My stout friends do not like S-04 in their dark beers. We're hoping 1098 gives a little bit more of a "wet" finish.

My opinion is that S-04 is a beast Pale/IPA yeast, but it's a little too much of a beast for dark beers that need a complex finish. S-04 just wipes everything out.

 

[fendersrule]

This is 28 hours on the stir plate.

 

[Golddiggie]

Doesn't look infected...

 

[fendersrule]

Was hoping I can transfer it to the fridge tonight so I can get started on the RIS starter...is that still a possibility?

 

[Golddiggie]

Turn off the stirplate and see if it starts to settle. As I've mentioned already, I NEVER attempt to rush my starters. Nor do I plan on them only taking a day to complete. I build in a buffer of at least a couple of days making the first. No matter how long the first takes, my subsequent starters (that week) pretty much always take off like a rocket.

IF you see a nice yeast cake form within a short amount of time (30-45 minutes) then it could be done.

Next time, give yourself several days to get the starters fully completed. Less worries that way.

I also can't really tell how fast your plate is spinning in there. If the vortex is nice and deep, then it's working well. I usually get it spinning so that there's a really nice vortex formed. Not so deep that it F's the stirbar up, but close. I also use the cross stirbars, not just a bar. I get a better vortex from those, that's easier to maintain and doesn't require as fast a spin. Also listen for any rattle when it's spinning. A properly set flask will be pretty close to silent while spinning. If you hear it knocking (the bar) against the flask, then you're not properly aligned. Practice with some water before your next starter.

BTW, I've done over 40 starters to date. That's with taking about 6 years off from brewing. It was a non-issue with my first starter this year. I did have to replace my stirplate since it died on the final step for a brew. I expect the new one to do much better.

 

[fendersrule]

I don’t think 28 hours is rushing it.
This is 5 minutes after turning it off...

 

[fendersrule]

6 minutes.

 

[fendersrule]

10 minutes.

Time for fridge?
If so, I will need to magnetically get the stir bar out.

Almost finished the wine...

 

[fendersrule]

It’s hard to believe I shouldnt brew tomorrow. That yeast fell down pretty fast....in the fridge for 12 hours would probably work...

 

[Golddiggie]

See how compact it is in the morning. If the starter wort above it isn't clear, I'd delay brew day. That's if you're going to decant the spent starter (I do every time) so you get a more concentrated slurry of yeast going in. If it doesn't go to clear, then you're throwing out the yeast that hasn't fully settled, and you want those too. With 1098 being medium flocculating, it won't settle as fast. You want those yeast cells as well as the ones that settle fast. IIRC, I gave the starter(s) I made an extra day (or so) to settle more when I used 1098 the other batch.

 

[fendersrule]

So agreed this guy can be moved to the fridge?

we’re talking about 1.059 wort here....

 

[Golddiggie]

I'm less concerned about the OG of the batch than the yeast fully settling out of suspension before you go to pitch. That is, IF you're going to decant most of the spent starter. If you're pitching it all in, then go ahead.

Personally (as I think I've already stated), I decant as much of the spent starter as possible. I want as little extract based wort going into my brews as possible.

 

[fendersrule]

 

[fendersrule]

The glass carboy failed the stir test. Too much of a concave on the bottom.

however my 1.5L mason jar passes the step for a 1L starter. I’ll use this for the first step.

in the next few days I will pick up a larger 4-5L flask for the next step.

 

[fendersrule]

The RIS is started.

 

[fendersrule]

It’s a little noisey, but it’s a proper stir.