Yeast Starter Question

[ejcrist]

I've made starters for wine and mead before with good results. The rule of thumb I went by was to use 2% of the total must volume in your starter, so like in a case of mixed berry mead I made I used 450 ml mixed berry juice to pitch the yeast in to make the starter. I was reading about starters for brewing beer this afternoon and it was quite a bit more complicated and depended on the OG, whether you used a stir plate to make the starter, and some other factors. I got this info off the Northern Brewer web site at http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/YeastPitchingRates.pdf

So with regards to a cider starter, which method do you use? I'm inclined to use the wine/mead rule of thumb since cider is a low alcohol wine, but on the other hand I'm using S-04 yeast which is an ale yeast. If anyone has any opinions I'm all ears.

Thanks, Gene

 

[DaMonkey]

A starter is not necessary with cider.

 

[ejcrist]

I know I don't have to since S-04 is a dry yeast, but I like to since the lag time seems to be reduced quite a bit whenever I've done it. Also in the future I'm sure I'll want to experiment with the liquid yeasts.

 

[GatineauBrewer]

I started a new cider batch 2 days ago, ejcrist, with S-04. While I'm no expert, I can attest to the fact my batch "started" noticeably fermenting within 12 hrs (bubbles in airlock, foaming action, activity in the must). Here's what I did for 1 pack of S-04 in 6.5 gallons of juiced apples (Cortland, Spartan, MacIntosh)

In a bowl:
- 100ml bottled water, warmed;
- 250ml (1 cup) of the juice (must), warmed;
- trace amount (one tenth tsp maybe?) of yeast nutrient;
- add some of the yeast (spread evenly in one layer to cover the whole surface);
- wait for it to sink (like 1 minute);
- repeat with more, etc., until the pack is empty;
- wait 20 minutes;
- dump in the must (glass carboy).

I'm aware it's probably not necessary (many just pitch directly in the must), but I had a situation recently where the must just would not "start"... and given all the work to juice so many apples... and the waiting, day in, day out, without any activity.... wondering what you did wrong... it's enough to stress the hell out of you.
Better to give it some "care" and be sure?
All the best!

 

[menerdari]

I just rehydrated my yeast s-04 and pitched, I did put yeast nutrient in my bucket. fermentation took off in less than 12 hours.

 

[ejcrist]

I started a new cider batch 2 days ago, ejcrist, with S-04. While I'm no expert, I can attest to the fact my batch "started" noticeably fermenting within 12 hrs (bubbles in airlock, foaming action, activity in the must). Here's what I did for 1 pack of S-04 in 6.5 gallons of juiced apples (Cortland, Spartan, MacIntosh)

In a bowl:
- 100ml bottled water, warmed;
- 250ml (1 cup) of the juice (must), warmed;
- trace amount (one tenth tsp maybe?) of yeast nutrient;
- add some of the yeast (spread evenly in one layer to cover the whole surface);
- wait for it to sink (like 1 minute);
- repeat with more, etc., until the pack is empty;
- wait 20 minutes;
- dump in the must (glass carboy).

I'm aware it's probably not necessary (many just pitch directly in the must), but I had a situation recently where the must just would not "start"... and given all the work to juice so many apples... and the waiting, day in, day out, without any activity.... wondering what you did wrong... it's enough to stress the hell out of you.
Better to give it some "care" and be sure?
All the best!

Gotcha - thanks for the info. I know what you mean about a batch not starting. That happened to me with my first batch of mead so I've been gun shy ever since. I almost had to see a grief counselor after that experience.

 

[teamacacia]

Thanks for starting this thread ej. I recently picked up a Lalvin yeast from my LHBS and the packet recommended rehydrating prior to use. My previous batches of cider used a champagne yeast and I just pitched in and shook the bottle vigorously for 30-45 seconds and then let it do it's thing. If I were to rehydrate using the recipe of @GatineauBrewer, do I still shake the whole bottle after adding the rehydrated yeast starter?
Thanks!

 

[Genacide]

I re use all my yeast and when I make a starter for cider I follow the same process as with beer... including using DME for my cider starter and pouring off most the liquid after cold crashing before I pitch.

 

[ejcrist]

Thanks for starting this thread ej. I recently picked up a Lalvin yeast from my LHBS and the packet recommended rehydrating prior to use. My previous batches of cider used a champagne yeast and I just pitched in and shook the bottle vigorously for 30-45 seconds and then let it do it's thing. If I were to rehydrate using the recipe of @GatineauBrewer, do I still shake the whole bottle after adding the rehydrated yeast starter?
Thanks!

Hey Doc - Sorry I'm a little late getting back. I've only been making wine and mead for a short time, and Sunday I'll get my first cider going so take my recommendations with a grain of salt. I've only used dry wine yeasts so far in my career and the first couple of batches I always re-hydrated per the instructions on the packages which said to heat non-chlorinated water (in my case well water) to 104F-108F, sprinkle in the yeast, cover and let stand for 15 minutes, and then stir. After no longer than 20 minutes, and no more than 8F difference in temperature, pitch the yeast into the must. I followed the directions to a T and everything worked well. Also I added Go-Ferm to the water used to re-hydrate the yeast prior to sprinkling in the packet contents.

I got pretty interested in yeast as time went on and wanted to try a starter on my next batch which was a berry melomel with a high SG. I know a starter isn't necessary when using dry yeast but I wanted to experiment and see what would happen. I know now there's an optimum number of yeast to pitch for a given batch size so I'll try to hit that range in the future, but at the time I didn't know and just figured more was better. So I bought a beaker, re-hydrated the yeast (Lalvin 7B-1122), and dumped into 450 ml mixed berry juice. After about 3 hrs it was bubbling like there was no tomorrow so I pitched in the must consisting of 21 lbs of mixed berries, 18 lbs of honey, and enough water to make 7 gallons. In about 2 hrs it was fermenting vigorously at room temperature of about 75F. That ferment lasted about 9 days and has been the best of any I did prior. I tasted during the first racking and it was extremely good, which I was quite surprised since it was so young. So I've been doing the same thing ever since but I'll try to refine the process better on this next batch to hit the optimum range. But I'm totally sold on making starters so you can verify the yeast is viable and especially so you can minimize lag time which should help keep contamination to a minimum. I always used Fermaid K and DAP during fermentation but I'm not planning to for this upcoming batch of cider because I'd prefer the ferment to stall leaving a little bit of residual sugar. People that keeve purposely limit the nitrogen to leave sweetness and retain apple flavor so of course I'm thinking it best to eliminate the nutrients and hope to get similar results. I'll post all the details on how this first batch of cider turns out.

Gene

 

[MarkKF]

I always make a starter. I use 1/4-1/3 gal. juice, no added sugar, no added nutrients. I sprinkle in all the dry yeast, cap and shake. I repeat the shake every 4-8 hours. After 24 hrs the fermentation is obvious and I add the starter to the rest of the juice in my carboy. Fermentation then takes off. It's always worked for me so I always do it, with one exception. Sometimes i just dump new juice on top of active yeast from a previous batch.