Wine Yeast + Brett in beer

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Also remember, you are a day or two in. By products come and go. Only get concerned after a tasting a few months in while already having blended. There are a lot of by products that Brett clears up, and even the sacch strains themselves for that matter.
 
jrfehon said:
Fermentation is slowing down. The wine half definitely has a sulfur smell to it. I've read that wine yeasts can create this fart-like aroma. Can anyone back me up on that? The rotten egg smell better dissipate or else half this batch is doomed.
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Winemakers tend to really baby their yeast to avoid reduction. Rehydrate in de-chlorinated water with Go-Ferm, add a bit of must, ensure the temp drop is no more the 15F (IIRC) before pitching, add Fermaid-K at first sign of fermentation and 1/3rd sugar depletion, rouse yeast daily, etc. This is critical for sur lie aging, don't think you're going there, but still valuable.

So wtf do you care about all this? Let me go back and say you've selected a strain with low nitrogen needs and low H2S production, so you could be in much worse shape had that not been the case. Anyways, the two things you can take from the above is to rouse your yeast once daily until completion (I do it pretty much like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hySxMc48y2Q) and rack off the gross lees as soon as fermentation is complete. Should be fine.
 
Quick update: It's been two weeks so I took a gravity reading today from both halves. WLP001 took the ale half down to 1.006 (91% attenuation!) while the wine half is down to 1.014.

Appearance: Ale half is very clear, while the wine half still has a decent amount of haze.
Smell: Citrusy from the ale, still a slight sulfur smell from the wine half.
Taste: Crisp, dry, citrusy, bitter and the biscuit malt is the star of the grain bill. The wine half is much more yeast forward, less citrusy and bitter, and it's tough to get anything from the grains. There isn't any sulfur taste so I'm happy about that.

Overall the taste is better from the wine half, but I like the mouthfeel better from the ale half.

Blended: I did a 50/50 blend from the samples and it really brings out the best of both halve. It's yeasty yet with a slight wheat/biscuit flavor. The bitterness is also lowered with a nice hint of citrus. The mouthfeel is perfect. I can also see why people say 1116 wine yeast has a peachy flavor, it's definitely present.

I'm tempted to blend the halves now but I think it needs another week. Next Monday I'll take a gravity reading again, test a blend, and go from there. If I do end up reracking and blending I'll save 1 gallon for a brett strain and maybe bottle the remaining ale half with brett in the bottles. We'll see...
 
jrfehon said:
.... I can also see why people say 1116 wine yeast has a peachy flavor, it's definitely present.
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Well, there's your sulfur. The aroma/flavor of stone fruits like peaches and apricots are actually sulfury, so it is not surprising that you would associate peachiness with the sulfur. Yeasts that provide peach/apricot aroma/flavors will also give you the sulfur aroma/flavor.
 
I'm sold. I want a wine yeast that will give me a preachy flavor, but I still have another month or so before I can kick mine off.
 
It'll be interesting to see how Brett works with wine yeast and how much of the flavor from the wine yeast stays. I have Brett brux trios in house but maybe I should use a different strain?
 
I thought I'd post this flavors list that Shea talked about in the podcast so people wont' have to find it. It's the main wine yeast strains and what flavors they impart when used in beer wort. Everyone of them is a killer except for 71B.

71B - Fruit salad
EC1118 - Neutral flavors
K1116 - Peach/Apricot
GRE - Fresh Berries (Shea mentioned this strain would be good with lambics)
MB45 - Cherry, more mouthfeel
L2226 - Berry
 
Yesterday I blended my two halves, one with WLP001 and the other with K1116 wine yeast. I went with a 50/50 blend which I thought tasted better than the individual halves. The bitterness has subsided and the citrus/peach flavor is really dominant in the blend. I ended up using 1.5 gallons from each half to blend and let it sit in a bottling bucket for conditioning. I think I'll leave it in there for a week just to make sure the gravity is stable at 1.010. I racked a little over a gallon of the wine half into a 2 gallon plastic fermentation bucket and added 1/5 a vial of WLP644. Before doing that I bottled the remaining gallon or so of the ale half and added 10 drops of WLP644 to every 12oz bottle and 20 drops per 22oz bottle.
 
Is this a lacto infection? I was going to bottle my wine yeast blend and discovered this. I blended 8 days ago and let it sit just to make sure it didn't attenuate anymore before the wine yeast killed the ale yeast. The taste is the same and so is the gravity. Should I still bottle?

image.jpg
 
Sadly I bottled it this morning. If it doesn't work then that's okay. I'll drink them quickly if needed.
 
Most likely you will be fine. If it's brett, you will get bottle bombs if they sit for over a long duration. If it's a lactic bacteria, it will get sour within a couple weeks.

It may also be nothing. Crashed Krausen and co2 escaping look weird sometimes. I can't tell from the picture.
 
Could it still be brett if the gravity stayed stable for eight days? I'm guessing it's a lactic bacteria. Seemed like a pellicle to me. This beer with some sour wouldn't be the worst thing. I was hoping to keep it clean but as long as it tastes good it doesn't really matter. The 1 gallon of wine fermented beer I separated and added brett brux trois to has a different smell to it and the airlock was moving a bit so I'm guessing the gravity lowered. The blend, however, the airlock never moved in 8 days. In hind sight I had too much headspace in the bucket so that might have caused the infection.
 
Well, Brett is a catch all for wild yeast, which is every where. If you did get a wild yeast or wild bacteria, just drink it fast. Or you can pasteurize it now that it's in bottles
 
I've never done it myself, but if you would just put those bottles into water that is between 150 and 170*f, it will kill the yeast and any bacteria in there. I would test with one bottle first to make sure it doesn't give an of flavor.
 
I'm actually going to be using the yeast bay's lochristi blend with icv d47. Should be an interesting mix of fruity flavors. I'll kick this of next week or the week after.

Any update on your beer?
 
Note to anyone who tries this and decides on the same wine yeast as me: it is a killer yeast. It will kill any saccharomyces you mix with it. Brettanomyces should be fine, but we will have to wait and see.
 
marvaden said:
Brettanomyces should be fine, but we will have to wait and see.
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I checked the gravity of 1 gallon of my original beer with wine yeast that I added brett to. It's been fermenting since the 11th of February. The gravity dropped from 1.013 to 1.005. There was a pellicle on top. The flavor, however, was not good. I had to dump the sample. I can't quite describe the flavor but it was just not drinkable. I would say though that since the gravity dropped it's safe to say that brett will not get killed by a killer wine yeast strain. I'm going to let the rest of the 1 gallon go for another few months at least and see if the flavor improves. If I had to suggest something to anyone interested in using wine yeast in a beer, K1116 isn't a great choice of strains.
 
644. I'm trying to think of how to describe the flavor. It has a harsh alcohol flavor which hopefully will mellow over time.
 
Hmm. did you taste the beer that the wine yeast made prior to pitching the Brett? If so, how did it differ?
 
Hmm. I've never used that strain of brett by itself as a secondary. I know that as a primary it tastes like pineapple that is about to go bad
 
Yeah I'm familiar with 644 and it doesn't smell or taste like a beer with 644. The wine beer by itself is nothing like the gallon I added Brett to. The wine yeast flavor is peachy but otherwise hard to describe. That flavor is subdued in the Brett gallon. The alcohol flavor is very dominant.
 
Weird. I guess the other trouble shooting question that I would have so I don't get similar results is: what temperature did you have that gallon fermenting at with the Brett? It's sounding like you got fusel somehow... Correct me if that is not what you are describing
 
marvaden said:
Weird. I guess the other trouble shooting question that I would have so I don't get similar results is: what temperature did you have that gallon fermenting at with the Brett? It's sounding like you got fusel somehow... Correct me if that is not what you are describing
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Possible. It's fermenting around 70-75. I'm not exactly sure because I don't have a fermometer on it. However, since the gravity dropped wouldn't that mean that brett won't get killed by killer wine yeast?
 
Yea, I don't think the Brett got killed, but I think that it may be fermenting too warm and the brett is making of flavors. It's just a guess. I will try to keep mine cool in a swamp cooler when I pitch the brett.
 
I stole a sample of mine this weekend, without brett still. It has a very crisp citrus flavor just like a crisp white wine. Very interesting in a beer.
 
What is your recipe?

I brewed another batch today and used GRE. Just a basic pilsner malt based ale with a tiny bit of melanoiden for malt flavor and red color.
 
10# Vienna
10# golden promise

150°f mash

2oz fuggle for 10 min

I went decently simple as well as you can tell. Went a little big but not crazy.
 
With how big it is, you get the malts up front then the crisp citrus, and it finishes with a mild hop flavor
 
marvaden said:
10# Vienna
10# golden promise

150°f mash

2oz fuggle for 10 min

I went decently simple as well as you can tell. Went a little big but not crazy.
Click to expand...

Looks good. Did you only ferment with wine yeast and then plan to pitch Brett after primary fermentation?
 
Yup. It only has the wine yeast right now. Once the lochristi blend comes, I will pitch that in. By the way it tastes, I almost wonder if I should go ahead and pitch some pedio in as well...
 
I went big as in gravity. I have around five gallons, but probably closer to four not counting the yeast cake. If it tastes good, I will do this again with pedio from the beginning.
 
I thought about making a sour mash for my current batch but decided against it. I do, however, think a slight tartness would pair well with wine yeast in beer. Have you ever added citric acid before bottling? I know a guy who use to be a brew master at a brew pub here and he swears by it instead of going through the process of a sour mash.
 

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