Wine Yeast + Brett in beer

[marvaden]

Right now I am starting to plan to make a unique beer using a wine yeast and brettanomyces pitched at the same time. I am in no rush to start this since I will be moving in a few months to a new house, but I am looking for some input.

Since this is going to take a while to ferment, I believe that I am going to jump straight in with an amber/brown ale. The desired flavor profile will be fruity, slight-if-any funk, silky body, a fair amount of malt character without overpowering the fruit/spice, and low to medium spice.

Wine Yeast Candidates:
- Wyeast Bordeaux
-- Berry esters with a graham cracker nose
-- Jammy, thick mouthfeel. This is because of saccharides that are produced by this yeast

- Wyeast Chablis
-- Lots of esters (but I don't see a description of which ones) with a bready/vanilla nose. It also allows the fruit to dominate, so this may be a bit of a clean wine yeast
-- Soft mouthfeel

- WLP727 Steinberg-Geisenheim
-- High fruit/ester production

- WLP749 Assmanshausen
-- High fruit and spice aroma


-Brettanomyces Candidates:
-- Wyeast Brettanomyces Lambicus (single)

-- White Labs Brettanomyces Bruxellensis Trois (single)

-- White Labs Brettanomyces Claussenii (single)

-- Wyeast Brett L + White Labs Brett C blend

-- Wyeast Brett L + White Labs Brett B Trois blend


Grain bill options (20lb total):
1. 75% Vienna, 20% Pilsner, 5% Special B
2. 75% Vienna, 20% Pilsner, 2.5% Biscuit, 2.5% Special B
3. 75% Vienna, 20% Pilsner, 5% CaraMalt
4. 75% Munich, 20% Pilsner, 5% Special B
5. 75% Munich, 20% Pilsner, 2.5% Biscuit, 2.5% Special B
6. 75% Munich, 20% Pilsner, 5% CaraMalt


Hops options (will adjust quantities to get ~25IBU):
1. Cascade only

2. Bitter with Cascade, flameout with Fuggle

3. Bitter with Cascade, flameout with Fuggle and Mt Hood

4. Bitter with Cascade, flameout with Fuggle and Mt Hood and Cascade

5. Bitter with Fuggle, flameout with Fuggle and Mt Hood

6. Bitter with Fuggle, flameout with Cascade and Mt Hood and Fuggle


I do not know if the wine yeast will produce enough phenols and diacetyl to lend to the normal brett character. I believe that the Brett L should still produce it's usual cherry flavor, though. Just like the two White Labs strains should produce their pineapple/mango flavors.

Since I enjoy hops, I do want a bit of their flavor to come through in the final product. However, I more want them to add to complexity rather than to be the focus.

I will kick this off in April, so we can argue recipe for a while .

Cheers!

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

I thought it would be cool to do a no cherry cherry dubbel with BM45. Brett L might be a good match if you can coax the cherry pie flavors out of it.

 

[marvaden]

I am really hoping for some cherry if I use Brett L. I know that I will have to let this age for a few months just to get everything balanced correctly, but I'll be smelling the carboy, as usual, to see what aromas are coming. After two months I will steal a sample and see what needs to be done.

I will do a simultaneous 2.5 gallon batch of sacch + lacto + pedio beer for mixing purposes. I am hoping to get a 5 gallon barrel and fill it with the mixture of the two beers. I will let it age for a year (so it will be Fall '14 to Fall '15) within the barrel.

Whatever I don't sour will be bottled (without priming sugar, of course) and kegged.

I plan on doing it this way so that I can wash the bacteria-free wine yeast + brett blend for further use within other beers/wines/ciders/meads. This will be an on-going experimentation to get something deliciously different.

 

[jrfehon]

Sounds really interesting. Please keep us updated on how it goes!

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

Another combination that sounds interesting to me is a light grain bill (pils/wheat) with yeasts known for producing tropical notes. Say, BA11 and brett brux trois. Not exactly what you had in mind, just spitballing here...

Are you counting on the brett to clean up the diacetyl from the pedio once the two batches are blended, or will there be brett in the sacc/lacto/pedio batch as well?

 

[chad_]

Make sure the wine year isn't a killer wine yeast. Some strains produce a toxin to kill other yeasts, and Brett is a yeast. In your second batch pedio might not be a good idea. It might make it sick, and Brett is needed in that batch if it gets sick. Also, any hops will disappear after a year, the only way to get some hops may be to dry hop right before bottling. Anyways, this seems very interesting! I look forward to hearing how it turns out!

Sent from my XT1034 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

Make sure the wine year isn't a killer wine yeast. Some strains produce a toxin to kill other yeasts, and Brett is a yeast. In your second batch pedio might not be a good idea. It might make it sick, and Brett is needed in that batch if it gets sick. Also, any hops will disappear after a year, the only way to get some hops may be to dry hop right before bottling. Anyways, this seems very interesting! I look forward to hearing how it turns out!

Sent from my XT1034 using Home Brew mobile app

Competitive/killer sacc strains do not affect brett.

 

[marvaden]

Brasseurgeorges,

I think that the light grain bill idea does sound good. It would be worth a try. And I am hoping for the brett to handle the diacetyl from the pedio one. As long as I do the blend before it gets sick, I will be fine. I may just kick that off a couple weeks before mixing to avoid it getting too viscous.

Also, I am gambling with this believing that the brett won't be killed by the saccharomyces. Most wines that are aged in barrels get brettanomyces in them, so that leadsme to believe that brett is able to resist the toxins.

I've had good success so far with several months aged beers having lots of hop flavors still. I don't expect any to really be noticeable in the portion that will get soured.

Here's hopping it all turns out well. Cheers

Sent from my EVO using Home Brew mobile app

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

Also, I am gambling with this believing that the brett won't be killed by the saccharomyces. Most wines that are aged in barrels get brettanomyces in them, so that leadsme to believe that brett is able to resist the toxins.

To my knowledge, brett is not impacted by sacc K-factor, but apparently there is a strain of pichia that can inhibit brett. While I don't necessarily agree that most barrel aged wines pick it up, I've tasted it and think it happens more often than winemakers would like or want to admit. I once pitched a bit of brux in some white wine racking leftovers. Tasted like licking nail polish off a boot, really off putting...

 

[JLem]

If you haven't heard it already, there's a spectacular podcast on the Brewing Network's Sunday Session with Shea Comfort on brewing with wine yeast. It is a definite must-listen. I think it should be easy to find if you google "Shea Comfort" and "Brewing Network".

(btw, the same episode also has some great info on using oak that is worth listening to too.).

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

If you haven't heard it already, there's a spectacular podcast on the Brewing Network's Sunday Session with Shea Comfort on brewing with wine yeast. It is a definite must-listen. I think it should be easy to find if you google "Shea Comfort" and "Brewing Network".

(btw, the same episode also has some great info on using oak that is worth listening to too.).

That is a fantastic podcast, I could listen to Shea talk all day. Only word of caution would be to not take his advice on using Convertase AG-300 (or any enzyme for that matter) in this situation. Potential contamination issues aside, it's just not necessary since the brett and LAB will take care of the remaining long chain sugars. You may not need to mash as high though to get the same effect.

All things you probably know, but I like to ramble...

 

[marvaden]

Yea, that assertion that I made was based off of what I read in Wild Brews. The author had mentioned about several experiments involving sterile wine and wine barrels that all resulted in the wine containing SOME amount (how much got in was never specified) of a strain of brettanomyces. Since brettanomyces reacts differently for different food sources, it isn't all that surprising that it would make a nasty product in some forms of wine. I know that Levifunk did a post about all-brett cider batches and how brett lambicus actaully ended up just tasting cheesy without any pie cherry flavors.

I'm going to give that podcast a listen. I haven't yet.

Yea, I am figuring that the brettanomyces will be able to slowly munch on the slightly-more complex carbs. I am planning on doing a normal ~151*F mash with the wine yeast + brett beer. I kind of want to try to see if I can get more of the brett-primary flavors than brett-secondary flavors. If I don't get enough primary-style flavors, I will mash higher the second attempt (more stuff the wine yeast won't be able to digest).

 

[marvaden]

Ok, so I listened to that podcast and it sounds like I will get what I am going for out of this. The unknown factor is how the brettanomyces will react with the by-products of the wine yeast. If the wine yeast doesn't create too many polyphenols, I don't believe that the right chemicals for the brett to make too much of the funky characteristics. If it does while still tasting good, you won't hear me complain, though. I am, however, hoping for this to be a pretty fruit-forward beer while balancing with the malts and mild hop character.

I do expect that this will be drunk up before the hops disappear (except whatever I decide to sour) because normally my beers only last one party. Especially my Cinnamon Raisin Bread Porter... people hear of it then it's gone within two weeks. Just gives me an excuse to brew more

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

Ok, so I listened to that podcast and it sounds like I will get what I am going for out of this. The unknown factor is how the brettanomyces will react with the by-products of the wine yeast. If the wine yeast doesn't create too many polyphenols, I don't believe that the right chemicals for the brett to make too much of the funky characteristics. If it does while still tasting good, you won't hear me complain, though. I am, however, hoping for this to be a pretty fruit-forward beer while balancing with the malts and mild hop character.

I think the idea that you need to use a Belgian (or otherwise high polyphenol producing) yeast for primary in funky beers has been drastically overstated. IIRC, New Belgium and AC Golden use lager yeast. To state the obvious... brett is going to get in there and do what it's going to do, and it's working with the compounds that are there. So while it's true Russian River, for example, produce excellent sour beers like Consecration with the Westmalle strain, brett brux, etc., there are many other options to be explored. This is why I find your experiment interesting.

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

Another idea: light grain bill, late hopped (and possibly dry hopped) with high myrcene hops, and fermented with QA23 to enhance terpenic aromas through Beta-glucosidase activity. You might be able to further enhance this effect with an enzyme, though I'm having trouble finding one without pectinase. Probably add brett brux trois to that one too, though it may make an interesting blending component for an IPA instead. Hmmm...

Far as podcasts go, you should definitely check out the Crooked Stave interview on the Sunday Session if you haven't already. A presentation by The Chad also up on YouTube. Lots of the same info, but he gets into a few other things. Probably the most knowledge from anyone I've heard on the topic of brett.

 

[marvaden]

I agree. It's just the level of funk that is the big question mark. I am not a microbiologist nor a chemist, so I won't be able to analyze the chemical compounds to see what building blocks will be there for the brettanomyces to use to make the different flavor profiles.

From my own experiments, I have found that diacetyl gets transformed into a very rounded funk. I have manipulated my british ale/brett L barleywine such that I pitched the brett when it was chalk full of diacetyl and got glorious results. I also have a lager that I secondaried with brett claussenii instead of lagering and it smells wonderful right now. I'll be curious whether the wine yeast will produce enough polyphenols to become the funk, or if the building blocks will be more in line with a dominant pie-cherry flavor.

(The beer that I am doing inbetween now and this experiment is a hefeweizen simultaneously pitched with brettanomyces lambicus to try to see if I can get a banana+cherry flavor profile).

What I have learned so far with my playing around:

Wyeast British Ale Yeast + Brett Brux (Wyeast) gives a lot of cloves and spices and moderate funk. (I now use this in my Cinnamon Raisin Bread Porter)

Wyeast Bohemian Lager + Brett C aroma wise gives a mild impression of mango and a small amount of funk similar to Boulevard's Brett Saison

Brett C + Brett Brux Trois gives largely pineapple and other ripe tropical fruit. However, if you sourmash, you can achieve funk in an all-brett beer. Without sour mashing, I use it in an amber colored IPA. With sourmashing, it makes a wonderful blend of a sourbeer complexity with lots of hops. (To sour mash, I did half the grain bill mashed 5 days prior to the actual brew day, then boiled all the wort together to kill the bacteria and have the hops infuse the entire batch).

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

Nor am I, just a big nerd. Informed (or purely random) experiments are the most practical at our level. Interesting results, thanks for sharing!

 

[jrfehon]

From my own experiments, I have found that diacetyl gets transformed into a very rounded funk. I have manipulated my british ale/brett L barleywine such that I pitched the brett when it was chalk full of diacetyl and got glorious results.

When do you know diacetyl is at it's peak? I know it's a buttery flavor so do you simply keep tasting your beer during the first few days of primary fermentation? Sorry for the noob question but I'm really fascinated by brett and want to learn more.

Have you posted the recipe for your cinnamon raisin bread porter? Sounds delicious!

 

[marvaden]

I should get around to posting the Cinnamon Raisin Bread recipe.... I will post the tweaked version next time I do it with tasting notes. This last time it was a bit thin as a first attempt with it as an all-grain beer, so I don't feel like it was worthy of getting posted yet (even though people drank it all in a week). Here's the two main things of it: 15% of the grain bill should be Special B for the raisin flavor and use a pound or more of cinnamon sticks in the boil/flame out. You can also add more cinnamon into the secondary if it needs more. Beyond that, make your favorite porter with those modifications. I have my own blend of Wyeast British Ale Yeast and Wyeast Brett Brux that I pitch. Their interaction gives almost a pumpkin spice mix flavor. I should use this for a pumpkin beer......

Well, diacetyl is typically a byproduct that diminishes again once the beer is fully fermented. That's why a lot of people refer to the lull after rigorous fermentation as the "clean up" phase. When brewing a lager, they are fermenting at a slower rate, so it's easier to catch the beer while it still has lot of diacetyl that needs to be reabsorbed/broken down by the yeast that are in suspension. Typically, you won't be able to detect the diacetyl in an ale. However, in large beers, like barleywine, during the time frame that you also expect the "sour apple" taste of partially fermented sugars, you will also be able to taste the diacetyl. The barleywine that I did, I deliberately racked it off it's yeast cake within a few hours of the krausen crashing. This gave me plenty of "sour apple" and diacetyl, so I knew that I had done it at the right time. At this point I pitched the brett lambicus into the secondary and let it go. Within a day all the diacetyl/sour apple was cleaned up and turned into pie cherry and funk.

My suspicion for why simultaneous pitching gives more funk up-front is because the brett is eating the trace amounts of diacetyl (and other byproducts) that the saccharomyces is producing as it's producing it. The sacch strain doesn't care about the diacetyl until it's completely done with most of the sugars. At that point it will (for reasons unknown to me) turn it's focus on the more advanced sugars and the diacetyl simultaneously. This is why the diacetyl rest is done when you still have some fermentables in the beer prior to lagering. This is why my mostly pilsner lager that I pitched brett C into instead of doing a diacetyl rest and lager phase has such a robust and full funky/spicy/mild mango aroma profile. I haven't yet sampled it since it still has a pellicle.

I almost hope a chemist chimes in at this point and starts talking about the chemical composition of the diacetyl compounds so that we know what + diacetyl = funk. There's another chemical floating around in that phase that is getting combined with the diacetyl by the brettanomyces to cause funk, but I don't know what that is. Perhaps it's phenols or polyphenols.

This also explains why so many people religiously talk about the symbiotic relationship between pedio and brett. Pedio produces lots of diacetyl that the brett then turns into funk. Since Pedio takes so long to work, I am opting instead to do lager yeast + brett to get a good funky beer quicker. HOWEVER, because pedio isn't there, brett is the only thing creating the enzymes to further break down the more complex carbohydrates into simpler sugars. This means that my beers have to be drunk within a few months to not become bottle bombs, don't add priming sugar, or age for a very long time in a bright tank/barrel. I could do the adding of the enzyme mentioned by Shea after the brett has become the primary player, but I don't bother. I have learned at this point, if it's a bottle that I am going to keep around myself, I don't add priming sugar. Since I was giving away bottles of Cinnamon Raisin Bread Porter, I did add priming sugar. No worries because that all got drunk within a month.

 

[jrfehon]

So I'm going to give wine yeast a try today. I've been thinking about it since this thread started and my curiosity has the best of me now. My plan is to brew a Belgian witbier and follow Shea's advice - splitting the 6 gallon batch in two - fermenting one half with wine yeast and the other half with ale yeast then blending to taste. I've selected K1-V1116 for the peachy flavors and WLP001. I know that's not an ale yeast generally used for this style of beer but I don't really want flavors from the ale yeast, so the wine yeast can really dominate the flavor profile. I'm going to mash at 148 and ferment at 62. Before I blend, I'm going to put a gallon of the wine half into a 1 gallon carboy with some WLP644. I've read that even though K1-V1116 is a killer it won't kill brett. We'll see... Hopefully it'll work because I have a batch of Flemish red coming up on a year in February so when I bottle it this spring/summer I'd like to brew this same beer and use GRE, then rack onto the yeast cake. Here's my recipe for today:

6.5LB Belgian Pilsner
5.5LB Torrified Wheat
1LB Clear Belgian Candi Sugar (add at FO)
.25LB Aromatic
.25 Biscuit
.5oz Sweet Orange Peel (5 minutes)

1oz Cascade (90 min)
1oz Amarillo (10 min)
1oz Citra (5 min)
1oz Simcoe (FO)

I may or may not dry hop. If I get 75% efficiency I should end up with an OG of 1.063. I know this isn't exactly to style but I like the citrus/fruity/floral flavors of American hops which I think will pair well with the wine yeast. Thoughts?

 

[marvaden]

That sounds cool, but if I were you, I would save off some of the California yeast in case the wine yeast does kill it. Other than that, I can't wait to hear how your beer turns out! Cheers! Once I move I will kick mine off, so you beat me to it.

 

[jrfehon]

That sounds cool, but if I were you, I would save off some of the California yeast in case the wine yeast does kill it. Other than that, I can't wait to hear how your beer turns out! Cheers! Once I move I will kick mine off, so you beat me to it.

I am going to harvest some WLP001 from my starter but since my primary fermentation will be in two separate carboys I shouldn't run into a problem with the wine yeast killing the ale yeast. When I blend them I do expect the wine yeast to kill but at that point I'll just be looking for taste. The wine yeast should be able to carbonate the bottles with priming sugar like an ale yeast, right? We'll see about the brett and if it survives. If it does that will open the door to some interesting possibilities, that is if the flavors are good. I'll post again when fermentation starts. I'm really excited about this brew!

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

Looks like a fun experiment. I think it'll give much more the impression of a PA or IPA with orange peel than a wit, but you'll have to let us know how it tastes. I'd also pass on the clear candi sugar to save some $ with no discernible difference. Anyways, have fun, keep us posted!

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

The wine yeast should be able to carbonate the bottles with priming sugar like an ale yeast, right?

Of course!

We'll see about the brett and if it survives.

It will...

 

[jrfehon]

Looks like a fun experiment. I think it'll give much more the impression of a PA or IPA with orange peel than a wit, but you'll have to let us know how it tastes. I'd also pass on the clear candi sugar to save some $ with no discernible difference. Anyways, have fun, keep us posted!

I already bought the candi sugar so I think I'm going to stick with it. If I heard correctly in the podcast with Shea, wine yeast can't consume complex sugars. I want the wine yeast to attenuate as much as possible so I figured adding the candi sugar should help it get the gravity lower. Plus I'd rather have a crisper mouth feel after I blend the ale and wine yeast halves. I'm also mashing low and fermenting low (148 & 62 degrees). This is all new to me so I could be totally wrong.

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

I already bought the candi sugar so I think I'm going to stick with it. If I heard correctly in the podcast with Shea, wine yeast can't consume complex sugars. I want the wine yeast to attenuate as much as possible so I figured adding the candi sugar should help it get the gravity lower. Plus I'd rather have a crisper mouth feel after I blend the ale and wine yeast halves. I'm also mashing low and fermenting low (148 & 62 degrees). This is all new to me so I could be totally wrong.

Oh sure, I'm not talking about the difference between simple and complex sugars. I'm talking about the difference between clear candi sugar and sugar (there is none [other than money {which you've already spent}]). Just good to know for next time. Dark candi syrups and sugars are a different story, due to the flavors they contribute.

 

[marvaden]

My experience is that you may want to not use priming sugar if you do have brett in there. Just let it take care of the residual sugars for month or two.

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

My experience is that you may want to not use priming sugar if you do have brett in there. Just let it take care of the residual sugars for month or two.

This is a good point, especially with all of the long chain sugars the wine yeast will leave behind, unless you intend to let the brett work on it for a while in secondary.

 

[jrfehon]

My experience is that you may want to not use priming sugar if you do have brett in there. Just let it take care of the residual sugars for month or two.

I'll let the gallon I add brett to ferment for at least three months or until I get stable gravity and the right flavor profile. It should be fine then to add priming sugar like a normal "clean" beer.

 

[marvaden]

Yea, it just depends on where it ends up. I've seen brett kick back up after bottling. As long as you drunk it at a reasonable rate after bottling, you probably won't get gushers.

Do keep this updated. I may even want to do a bottle swap with you so we can compare results

 

[jrfehon]

Yea, it just depends on where it ends up. I've seen brett kick back up after bottling. As long as you drunk it at a reasonable rate after bottling, you probably won't get gushers.

Do keep this updated. I may even want to do a bottle swap with you so we can compare results

Sounds like a plan! I'll post a few photos when fermentation gets underway. Just heating up my strike water now.

 

[jrfehon]

Just a quick update. Brew day went really well. I hit my targeted efficiency of 75% so my OG was right at 1.062 and I got 6 gallons of wort exactly after the boil. This was my fourth AG batch after over a year of extract so I'm pretty pumped about finally getting good efficiency (I've been in the 65% range). I made a starter with WLP001 and harvested some for a later brew. The wine yeast I rehydrated in 104 degree water for 15 minutes before pitching. I actually drained the wort from the kettle into a bottling bucket first to get the total volume and to take a gravity reading then I let it run out the spigot and into my better bottles. That aerated the wort like crazy so there's plenty of oxygen for the wort to work with. I pitched the yeast at 9pm last night and as of 6:30am this morning both halves had krausen, although the ale half had a bit more. They're currently fermenting at 64 degrees. I'll post a few photos when the krausen gets closer to peak.

 

[marvaden]

Sounds awesome. I believe that I have heard that wine strains don't make as big of a Krausen, so this doesn't surprise me. I'm looking forward to pictures.

 

[JLem]

Sounds awesome. I believe that I have heard that wine strains don't make as big of a Krausen, so this doesn't surprise me. I'm looking forward to pictures.

If I remember my wine yeast brew accurately, I had less-than-normal krausen...and it took a while to get going...I remember being worried, but it was for naught as it fermented just fine once it got going.

Here are the notes I have from the brew:
"2/24/11 - it took 3 days for the BM45 to get going! And it is slow going at that. I hope it goes OK."

"2/25/11 - WOW, the airlock is going crazy - looks like the yeast are just fine!"

 

[jrfehon]

Krausen is forming nicely in both halves. The wine yeast portion is on the left. So far the smell coming out of the airlock is very tropical fruity from the wine yeast but I'm not getting much from the ale yeast half. Fermentation started less than 12 hours after inoculation so I'm really glad about that. The fermometer says 62 on the wine half and 64 on the ale half. I bought a 1 gallon glass carboy today for eventually racking some of the wine half into with brett WLP 644.

 

[jrfehon]

Fermentation is slowing down. The wine half definitely has a sulfur smell to it. I've read that wine yeasts can create this fart-like aroma. Can anyone back me up on that? The rotten egg smell better dissipate or else half this batch is doomed.

 

[JLem]

Fermentation is slowing down. The wine half definitely has a sulfur smell to it. I've read that wine yeasts can create this fart-like aroma. Can anyone back me up on that? The rotten egg smell better dissipate or else half this batch is doomed.

I can't remember if the wine yeast I used threw much sulfur...but this is normal for a lot of yeast strains. It should dissipate. Just make sure it's gone before bottling.

 

[jrfehon]

It's not an overwhelming smell and I think it's dissipated some. But reading up on it on the wine forum maybe it's not good? I'm so out of my league on this one.

 

[JLem]

It's not an overwhelming smell and I think it's dissipated some. But reading up on it on the wine forum maybe it's not good? I'm so out of my league on this one.

You need to remember that you're using this strain outside it's normal environment...not sure the wine forum will give you accurate info about what this means for this particular situation. Since you are getting the sulfur now, early in the process, I imagine it will disappear as it ages...I would be more worried if it was fine now but got sulfury later.

 

[jrfehon]

You need to remember that you're using this strain outside it's normal environment...not sure the wine forum will give you accurate info about what this means for this particular situation. Since you are getting the sulfur now, early in the process, I imagine it will disappear as it ages...I would be more worried if it was fine now but got sulfury later.

Agreed. I'll keep monitoring the smell. Hopefully it will dissipate and I can continue with my plan. How long did you let your beer primary for? I'm not even sure what final gravity will be and how long it will take to get there.