will amylase enzyme lower fg for simple extract recipe?

[Brewsterguy]

Hi,
I searched the forums but did not find a definitive answer and beersmith does not show any change in fg.

will amylase enzyme lower fg in a non complex extract recipe?

 

[Jocky]

I've not tried it myself, but yes it will.

How far it takes it down I couldn't predict - that will depend upon the make up of your malt extract and how you use the enzyme - adding it to your wort for a couple of hours warm at 60C/140F will drop the gravity by a few points. Adding it to the fermenter will strip everything out.

I find that the malt extract I use (yours may differ) has limited body and malt flavour to it, so you may find that letting the enzyme strip out what little body there is might leave you with an extremely watery beer.

 

[madscientist451]

Yes, I just made an experimental seltzer/beer with just corn sugar and extract and hops with amylase in the fermenter and it went all the way down.
Came out better than I expected.

 

[Brewsterguy]

thank you both for replying!
if I add like half a tsp, or even a bit lit, can I expect the beer to dry out but just a bit?

I am planning on adding it to the fermenter itself and not the wort.

If however, you are telling me that a small amount of amylase will do exactly the same as a regular amount, but will just take longer, then I will add the recommended amount.

 

[dmtaylor]

I would consider adding to the boil kettle before the boil, letting it sit in there for about 20 minutes at about 150-160 F, then bring to a boil. This would emulate a mash and improve fermentability by a few points, followed by denaturing the enzyme to prevent drying out the beer excessively. At the same time you could steep small amounts of other grains and perform a mini-mash if desired. Reaping some benefits of a mash, without taking extra hours of your time to do a full mash.

 

[Brewsterguy]

sounds good! I will do as you said and keep you guys updated.
Ive decided im gonna brew a sort of psuedo lager with dry hopping. Theres a brand that does a dry hopped lager which my wife loves.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

a sort of psuedo lager with dry hopping

FWIW, there's a NHC gold medal (2021) lager that was made with extract - but didn't use any additional enzymes.

If you want to try using enzymes with DME/LME, that's fine. It's also likely that the beer you want to make can be made without enzymes.

 

[Brewsterguy]

im using ale yeast though

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm using ale yeast though

It's still likely that you can make the beer you want without using enzymes.

But if you want to try using enzymes, that's fine.

 

[Brewsterguy]

got it.
1. youre right, I do feel like experimenting a bit.
2. my reasoning behind the enzyme is that I have 0 temp control, only able to brew at room temp and room temp currently is 22c and getting warmer by the day.
3. since I will be using ale yeast and aiming for a lager like flavor profile, I can only assume the dryness will be achieved with some enzymes. I am able to use some table sugar, but I have tried a close beer to this with sugar in the past and it was too full body to be considered a lager. hence why I am trying this.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I do feel like experimenting a bit.

If you decide to report back, take really good notes and include a full recipe / process description.

 

[Jocky]

Wyeast 1056 or US-05 or even Nottingham can give you a fairly lager like profile as they're very clean. I find it helps to add bit of gypsum too as it'll help create a crisper finish.

When adding enzymes the amount you add can be a little bit irrelevant as they don't get used up, they just carry on working as long as they're not denatured by heat/pH. As @dmtaylor has mentioned you can limit the amount the enzymes work by adding them to warm wort and then boiling it before you add yeast.

 

[mac_1103]

will amylase enzyme lower fg in a non complex extract recipe?

Which enzyme? Alpha- or gluco-? Which extract?

 

[Brewsterguy]

Which enzyme? Alpha- or gluco-? Which extract?

I am planning on using Alpha, but I am able to get both. from what I understood, a gluco enzyme will significantly dry out my beer, while an alpha enzyme is very much depended on the type of yeast used.
If used a high attenuating yeast, it will also dry out the end product. if using a low attenuating yeast, it may just make your beer a bit "sweeter", as long starch chains may become shorter but still will not be eaten up by the yeast.
I may be mistaken though.

 

[Steveruch]

Hi,
I searched the forums but did not find a definitive answer and beersmith does not show any change in fg.

will amylase enzyme lower fg in a non complex extract recipe?

What fg are you shooting for?

 

[Brewsterguy]

Wyeast 1056 or US-05 or even Nottingham can give you a fairly lager like profile as they're very clean. I find it helps to add bit of gypsum too as it'll help create a crisper finish.

When adding enzymes the amount you add can be a little bit irrelevant as they don't get used up, they just carry on working as long as they're not denatured by heat/pH. As @dmtaylor has mentioned you can limit the amount the enzymes work by adding them to warm wort and then boiling it before you add yeast.

i am also contemplating using kveik lutra and adding table sugar.

 

[mac_1103]

I am planning on using Alpha, but I am able to get both. from what I understood, a gluco enzyme will significantly dry out my beer, while an alpha enzyme is very much depended on the type of yeast used.

I believe that what the alpha can do will also depend on how the extract was mashed. I can imagine that different extracts will have differing amounts of dextrins that the alpha can act on. Gluco in the fermenter will most likely dry the beer all the way out. I've never tried using gluco for a limited time pre-boil.

 

[Brewsterguy]

I believe that what the alpha can do will also depend on how the extract was mashed. I can imagine that different extracts will have differing amounts of dextrins that the alpha can act on. Gluco in the fermenter will most likely dry the beer all the way out. I've never tried using gluco for a limited time pre-boil.

also sorry did not answer: planning on using small amount of carapils for steep and mainly extra light dme

 

[dmtaylor]

Wyeast 1056 or US-05 or even Nottingham can give you a fairly lager like profile as they're very clean. I find it helps to add bit of gypsum too as it'll help create a crisper finish.

I mean no disrespect, I see where you are going with this Jocky, and these are good ideas. However...

I would recommend a different yeast for a warm lager-like fermentation. In my experience, S-04 turns out even cleaner and more lager-like than "Chicos" or Notty -- believe it or not, but I suggest you don't poo-poo this experience until you try a comparison experiment yourself. I've made great lager-like beer at 22C with S-04.

I haven't tried BRY-97 at 22C quite yet, but my guess is this *might* also be a better option than the other "Chicos".

I say "Chicos" because the oft-touted 1056/WLP001/US-05 yeasts are NOT, in fact, very similar or equivalent. And so I also doubt they're all from Chico, even though that's what everyone still calls them. But anyway.

I would not recommend adding gypsum to an extract batch unless brewing a west-coast IPA, or a style that you want to turn out very bitter indeed. Extract already contains all the salts you need. I would instead recommend RO or distilled water, or at most a 50/50 blend of RO/distilled with municipal water. If using hard water like from a well, I'd typically recommend 100% RO/distilled unless you know what you are doing.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I find it helps to add bit of gypsum too as it'll help create a crisper finish.

I mean no disrespect, I see where you are going with this Jocky, and these are good ideas. However...

I would not recommend adding gypsum to an extract batch unless brewing a west-coast IPA, or a style that you want to turn out very bitter indeed. Extract already contains all the salts you need. I would instead recommend RO or distilled water, or at most a 50/50 blend of RO/distilled with municipal water. If using hard water like from a well, I'd typically recommend 100% RO/distilled unless you know what you are doing.

Without knowing OPs source water, the brand (and perhaps style) of DME being used, and a recipe, it's hard to know if "a bit of gypsum" is too little, too much, or "just right".

We're over in the "beginners beer brewing forum". Adding flavor salts to DME/LME is probably not a beginners topic.

OTOH, if OP posts a complete recipe, there may be some insights that people could add based on their experiences with the brand/style of extract.

 

[Brewsterguy]

Guess I am posting my recipe!
I just didn't want to go too far off topic

anyway:
About 21 Liters
Steeping: 100g of Carapils (i am not sure from where its imported and I'm contemplating doing 200g)
EXTRACT:
2.5 kg of Muntons extra light dme - spray malt
Hallertau Mittelfrueh boil for 60 min - 19.6IBU

Dry hopping with 15g of cascade and 15g of Citra for 5 days.

after suggestions, was planning on 1tsp of Alpha Amylase after steeping and before boil, for 20 min with the dme already dissolved within wort.

You will note I did not say which yeast, as I will take pointers from you guys.


And since I'm getting excited already I will definitely do this beer and give you guys feedback!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

You will note I did not say which yeast, as I will take pointers from you guys.

What strains have you used in the past (that you didn't like)? What strains are you considering for this recipe?

 

[passedpawn]

Hi,
I searched the forums but did not find a definitive answer and beersmith does not show any change in fg.

will amylase enzyme lower fg in a non complex extract recipe?

No, it should not have an effect on your extract beer. Other enzymes certainly will, but alpha enzymes will not. Why not? The folks that made your extract already allowed the AE to do its job.

 

[doug293cz]

No, it should not have an effect on your extract beer. Other enzymes certainly will, but alpha enzymes will not. Why not? The folks that made your extract already allowed the AE to do its job.

Maybe, maybe not. If the extract manufacturer allowed the mash to go on until the alpha amylase had reduced all carbohydrates to alpha limit dextrins, then adding alpha to an extract batch will do nothing, as you say. However, if the manufacturer did not allow the alpha amylase to complete its action, then adding alpha will increase the fermentability of the wort. Alpha amylase will not fully dry out a beer, as alpha amylase cannot convert alpha limit dextrins to fermentable sugars.

Amyloglucosidase, (aka glucoamylase or just gluco) can fully convert any dextrins to fermentable sugars, and can dry out your beer completely.

Brew on

 

[madscientist451]

I say "Chicos" because the oft-touted 1056/WLP001/US-05 yeasts are NOT, in fact, very similar or equivalent. And so I also doubt they're all from Chico, even though that's what everyone still calls them.

Apologizing in advance for officially hijacking the thread for my own purposes and being , but can I still grow up the yeast from Sierra Nevada dregs and is that the actual "chico" strain?

 

[dmtaylor]

Apologizing in advance for officially hijacking the thread for my own purposes and being , but can I still grow up the yeast from Sierra Nevada dregs and is that the actual "chico" strain?

Yes, of course. Sierra Nevada *is* Chico!

My current educated *guess* is that WLP001 is the closest thing to Sierra Nevada / Chico. But to be fair, I've been wrong as often as I've been right. *shrug*

 

[passedpawn]

Maybe, maybe not. If the extract manufacturer allowed the mash to go on until the alpha amylase had reduced all carbohydrates to alpha limit dextrins, then adding alpha to an extract batch will do nothing, as you say. However, if the manufacturer did not allow the alpha amylase to complete its action, then adding alpha will increase the fermentability of the wort. Alpha amylase will not fully dry out a beer, as alpha amylase cannot convert alpha limit dextrins to fermentable sugars.

Amyloglucosidase, (aka glucoamylase or just gluco) can fully convert any dextrins to fermentable sugars, and can dry out your beer completely.

Brew on

I'm sure malt extract manufs allow full conversion. That is their only job. I've made a bunch of extract beers, they were great. I appreciate your thoughts, and they are valid, but demonstrably without merit. People brew successfully with DME all the time.

Gluco will certainly result in a failed beer, unless you're looking for a very dry one.

 

[mac_1103]

I'm sure malt extract manufs allow full conversion. That is their only job. I've made a bunch of extract beers, they were great.

Then why does Briess market their extracts as 75% fermentable? I've made great extract beers too, but I don't think full conversion is a requirement.

 

[passedpawn]

That is full conversion. That’s what enzymes do.

 

[doug293cz]

I'm sure malt extract manufs allow full conversion. That is their only job. I've made a bunch of extract beers, they were great. I appreciate your thoughts, and they are valid, but demonstrably without merit. People brew successfully with DME all the time.

Gluco will certainly result in a failed beer, unless you're looking for a very dry one.

What data do you have to say my thoughts are "demonstrably without merit"? Full conversion only means that all available starch has been hydrolyzed to soluble molecules (once everything is in solution, there is nothing more to increase the SG of the wort.) It does not mean that the wort has reached maximum fermentability, which is the same as all starch has been hydrolyzed to fermentable sugar and alpha limit dextrins. If alpha is still present and active, it doesn't stop until this condition is achieved.

I also discussed to two possible cases:

• Full conversion, and all possible alpha amylase action completed
• Full conversion, but all possible alpha amylase action not completed.

Added alpha amylase will only have an effect in the second case, which I said.

I made no comments about the quality of beer made from extract. Why even bring that up? The discussion is simply about the degree of fermentability.

Brew on

 

[VikeMan]

I'm sure malt extract manufs allow full conversion. That is their only job. I've made a bunch of extract beers, they were great.

Then why does Briess market their extracts as 75% fermentable? I've made great extract beers too, but I don't think full conversion is a requirement.

Full conversion simply means that all starches have been converted to something other than starches. It doesn't imply anything about a relative degree of fermentability. Any wort from a normal, fully converted mash will contain some unfermentable dextrins and some maltotriose, both of which prevent 100% real attenuation for the vast majority of yeast strains.

 

[Brewsterguy]

I understand that, without knowing the actual fermentability of my dme, I will not know if the ALPHA will do anything.
I think I will aim to have a low fg beer without accounting for the Alpha, and add some of the ALPHA to my mash. I will update on full recipe and how it goes eventually.

by the way, thank you all for the interesting points raised and discussion, I learned quite a bit.

 

[Brewsterguy]

What strains have you used in the past (that you didn't like)? What strains are you considering for this recipe?

I actually only brewed a single beer which I didnt like, and I did not attribute it to the strain.
Before your comments, I was considering Nottingham or Lutra Kveik.
At the moment I am also considering US05 or s-04.
I believe the Alpha will help raise attenuation by just a bit and not too much, as "passedpawn" said that the Alpha has mostly done its work in Dme, and it makes sense to me.

so maybe use Lutra kveik, some table sugar and gelatin before bottling? best way I think I'll manage to make a psuedolager at the moment.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

without knowing the actual fermentability of my dme

Fast fermentation test (link).

 

[dmtaylor]

I actually only brewed a single beer which I didnt like, and I did not attribute it to the strain.
Before your comments, I was considering Nottingham or Lutra Kveik.
At the moment I am also considering US05 or s-04.
I believe the Alpha will help raise attenuation by just a bit and not too much, as "passedpawn" said that the Alpha has mostly done its work in Dme, and it makes sense to me.

so maybe use Lutra kveik, some table sugar and gelatin before bottling? best way I think I'll manage to make a psuedolager at the moment.

Nottingham has an apparent attenuation of 77-78% no matter what you do in the mash.

S-04 averages about the same as Notty. Not sure what affect extra amylase or mash parameters will have on it.

US-05 averages 83% attenuation but varies quite a bit. It won't be below 80% but could be as high as 85-86%, depending on your process.

Kveik, I don't know much about as I don't like it.

 

[VikeMan]

Nottingham has an apparent attenuation of 77-78% no matter what you do in the mash.

I'm surprised by this statement. If I understand correctly, it means the worts resulting from the two following mashes would both have an apparent attenuation of 77-78% with Nottingham:

1) 100% Pilsner Malt
40 minutes @ 145F, 50 minutes @ 158F, 20 minutes @ 168F

2) 27% Pale Ale Malt, 25% Munich, 8% Flaked Barley, 8% C-80, 8% Chocolate, 8% Roaster Barley, 5% Carafoam
45 minutes @ 158

I'm hoping you meant something else, because this sounds impossible to me. For it to be true, it seems that the yeast would have to modify its ability/willingness to use one or more sugar types on the fly, somehow "targeting" 77-78%, and also be able to use caramelization/maillard byproducts.

 

[Jocky]

I mean no disrespect, I see where you are going with this Jocky, and these are good ideas. However...

I would recommend a different yeast for a warm lager-like fermentation. In my experience, S-04 turns out even cleaner and more lager-like than "Chicos" or Notty -- believe it or not, but I suggest you don't poo-poo this experience until you try a comparison experiment yourself. I've made great lager-like beer at 22C with S-04.

I haven't tried BRY-97 at 22C quite yet, but my guess is this *might* also be a better option than the other "Chicos".

I say "Chicos" because the oft-touted 1056/WLP001/US-05 yeasts are NOT, in fact, very similar or equivalent. And so I also doubt they're all from Chico, even though that's what everyone still calls them. But anyway.

I would not recommend adding gypsum to an extract batch unless brewing a west-coast IPA, or a style that you want to turn out very bitter indeed. Extract already contains all the salts you need. I would instead recommend RO or distilled water, or at most a 50/50 blend of RO/distilled with municipal water. If using hard water like from a well, I'd typically recommend 100% RO/distilled unless you know what you are doing.

No disrespect taken. As has already been mentioned, it's a beginner forum so I don't want to get too into the weeds.

All I will say is that I know of someone brewing an award winning Helles with Nottingham fermented cool, and I've brewed an award winning American Light Lager with 1056. While it's not the same I think a beginner would be quite happy with US-05 instead, or Nottingham, or BRY-97 as you suggest.

 

[dmtaylor]

I'm surprised by this statement. If I understand correctly, it means the worts resulting from the two following mashes would both have an apparent attenuation of 77-78% with Nottingham:

1) 100% Pilsner Malt
40 minutes @ 145F, 50 minutes @ 158F, 20 minutes @ 168F

2) 27% Pale Ale Malt, 25% Munich, 8% Flaked Barley, 8% C-80, 8% Chocolate, 8% Roaster Barley, 5% Carafoam
45 minutes @ 158

I'm hoping you meant something else, because this sounds impossible to me. For it to be true, it seems that the yeast would have to modify its ability/willingness to use one or more sugar types on the fly, somehow "targeting" 77-78%, and also be able to use caramelization/maillard byproducts.

That's been my experience. Try it. I don't understand the why either, it makes no logical sense. Just an observation based on using it a ton.

 

[dmtaylor]

No disrespect taken. As has already been mentioned, it's a beginner forum so I don't want to get too into the weeds.

All I will say is that I know of someone brewing an award winning Helles with Nottingham fermented cool, and I've brewed an award winning American Light Lager with 1056. While it's not the same I think a beginner would be quite happy with US-05 instead, or Nottingham, or BRY-97 as you suggest.

Fair enough. So often I forget which subforum I am in. In this hobby, most of us do tend to overthink stuff, myself definitely included.

 

[Brewsterguy]

just as a quick update to all interested.
I made a 1.050 OG beer, with us-05 and added alpha amylase right with the yeast pitch.
Dont know if it has anything to do with it but airlock is bubbling hard less than 3H after pitch.

Will update on FG. This is an extract beer