Why Would My Lagers Taste Great and My Ales Fail?

[maltoftheearth]

Kind of an odd question but I have had success in brewing some really nice lagers but every ale that I brew has been so-so. Not bad but not great. One defining problem has been severe loss of hop aroma after a week (well, having fermented, transferred to keg, let set under pressure for two weeks, then served.)

The other problem has been a real lack of complexity to the flavor of the ales, they are overwhelmingly one flavor. I am very careful with my fermentation temps (Johnson control with 7 ft freezer) but the beer just tastes monotone with little to no esters. This is the same regardless of whether it is an IPA or a regular ale.

I know this is very general information but would anyone like to speculate on what MIGHT be happening?

 

[Yooper]

There are two things that come to mind for me right away. One is water chemistry- perhaps you have very low mineral soft water? The other is recipe formulation.

Can you post a typical recipe so that we can see what you're working with?

 

[osagedr]

Just stick to lagers--they're great!

 

[BJL]

Are you possible over-pitching your yeast? Some of the flavors you get from yeast are produced during the reproduction phase. If you severely over-pitch, you will lose some of the flavor profile associated with the yeast.

 

[shelly_belly]

Because lagers > ales. Bring it on!

 

[JeepDiver]

what temps are you fermenting the ales at? If your too low you won't get a lot of the esters you are looking for.

 

[maltoftheearth]

There are two things that come to mind for me right away. One is water chemistry- perhaps you have very low mineral soft water? The other is recipe formulation.

Can you post a typical recipe so that we can see what you're working with?

The most recent one was one of yours, Yooper! I trusted you!

I kid, I kid. I did some modifications of the recipe you shared this summer because I had a mix of hops on hand. Here is my most recent batch:

Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
5 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 35.7 %
5 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 35.7 %
3 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 3 21.4 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.6 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.6 %
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 15.9 IBUs
1.00 oz Sorachi Ace [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 34.6 IBUs
1.0 pkg British Ale (Wyeast Labs #1098) [125.00 ml] Yeast 14 -
0.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 9 9.4 IBUs
0.50 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 10 7.4 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 8 4.8 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 12 5.6 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 11 2.9 IBUs
0.50 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 13 4.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 15 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
__________________

I am doing a single starter for all my ales and I am fermenting at the mid-temperature range allowed for the yeast. Maybe that IS the problem. I don't think it is overpitching.

You know, only recently have I started brewing my wort and letting it sit in the freezer chest for 24 hours (at least) before pitching my yeast at the proper temperature. Is it possible that these problems are related to having pitched at too high a temperature?

 

[JeepDiver]

In my experience pitching at too high of a temp makes more esters not less. Defaintly wouldn't say the ales I have pitched too high on have been monotone, though wouldn't call them good either. I usually pitch at around 68-70, and right now my basement is around 65. I probalby pitch a little high, but think it works well. I use to live in Northern VA and couldn't get my full boils below 75 and the basement was closer to 70-72. I noticed a big improvement after moving here and getting the lower temps, but not sure I would want to go much lower.

 

[Homercidal]

I have a silly question: What yeast are you using?

 

[lurker18]

Personal preference? I know several people that think rather bland lagers are far superior to flavorful ales, and they will not change on this. Maybe you just like lagers much better. Do others say this about your beer?

 

[maltoftheearth]

I have a silly question: What yeast are you using?

It is buried in the recipe -- British Ale (Wyeast Labs #1098). I have used other yeasts, though, and the only one that really turned out well was an amber ale that maybe Revvy posted. I'll have to check BeerSmith when I get home

And I am typically kinder to my homebrew than others, I think I like a broader range of beers than some folks.

Thinking about it now, I wonder if maybe my grain bills are not appropriate? I know that ale grain bills are typically slightly more complex than lagers.

 

[bessieflames]

I have recently had the same problem. My first few extract ales were great. I switched to all-grain and they were still good. Recently, the ales all have the same flavor. The bitterness is there, but there is no hop flavor and there is a distinct flavor that is present in all of them. I have tried hopbursting and still cant get the hop flavor. My lagers on the other hand are great. Just made a german pils that is wonderful. I normally buy ales from breweries and from the store. I love IPA's but I'm having trouble making a good one. I have been doing water chemistry adjustments properly.

 

[TopherM]

You could always lager (verb) your ales. After primary fermentation is complete, throw your ales into your lager fridge for 6-8 weeks at 34-38F before you carb and condition. If you are worried about hop aroma, dry hop with 1-2 oz of your final hop addition for the final 2 weeks of lagering.

You'll end up with lagered ales that are crisper and cleaner than their "ale'd ale" counterparts. They WILL be better, it just takes more time. Lower temps - slower but CLEANER conditioning and more clarity in your final product.

I had an IPA that I fermented at about 70 because my ferm chamber was being used for lagering. After primary fermentation was complete, I threw the IPA right in with the lagers at about 36F for the last 5 weeks (jumped the gun a bit due to family coming to town in four weeks), then dry-hopped with Simcoe for the last week. I just bottled everything last night. The pre-carb lager sample was awesome, but the pre-carb IPA sample was outstanding! I hope they taste even 1/2 as good as the pre-carb samples once they're done!

BTW, I've brewed like a madman in 2012 and will have 35 gallons worth of 6 brews and a hard Cider for my family to consume when they are here. Can you say Craft Brew Fest 2012?

 

[maltoftheearth]

Thanks Topher, that's solid advice -- although I always thought the virtue of an ale was in not having to wait.