Why lager so long?

[Tall_Yotie]

ive been brewing for a while. Finally tackling a lager. Guides say after diacetal rest to slowly drop, then lager for several weeks.

Why?

Is the slow drop to reduce chill haze? Will that not clear over time?

Long lagering time. Is this just aging like you would for a high abv beer to let flavors meld? Couldn't you just sample it until happy?

Are you supposed to do all of this outside of the keg and transfer after the lagering? Why?

And most importantly, has anyone gone against this advice (crash fast, carb, serve) without issue? So many methods are hangups from old bad info. 90min boil for dms, rehydrating yeast, sugar adding a cider flavor, etc. Wanting to make sure doing this has been proven to be better than not, rather than for unquestioned tradition.

Thanks all!

 

[Staylow]

Not entirely necessary, as far as I can tell. Look for the 'warm fermented lager' thread here on HBT, or take a look at any of the Brulosophy exbeeriments involving lager fermentation temperature and draw you own conclusions.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I've made several lagers and generally followed the same process as ales. Only difference is I pitch ALOT more yeast.For a 18g bstch I start with a single pack of liquid yeast into a 1 litre starter, decant and pitch into a 5 litre then decant again and into another 5 litre then decant again. I also do a D rest. I'd say the first keg is tapped 2 weeks from grain to glass. It gets cleaner over time but I feel that also has to do with your process. I use a unitank and carb in the tank with very clear product into the kegs. If you're using more basic processes the conditioning/lagering probably makes a more noticible difference. Cheers

 

[Yooper]

I've been doing the "colder, longer" lagering method. What I mean is that beer will age faster at warmer temperatures, but I've been doing the lagering at just above freezing, and for a longer time. A lot happens during lagering- for one, excess polyphenols drop out, making that distinctive crisp mouthfeel and allowing the hops to be bitter, but not harsh.

While I've had acceptable tasting lagers that didn't follow the traditional lagering time and temperature, the best ones I've had have all been done "the old fashioned way".

 

[mongoose33]

ive been brewing for a while. Finally tackling a lager. Guides say after diacetal rest to slowly drop, then lager for several weeks.

Why?

Is the slow drop to reduce chill haze? Will that not clear over time?

It will, but crashing to cold temps and waiting is generally how you do it.

Long lagering time. Is this just aging like you would for a high abv beer to let flavors meld? Couldn't you just sample it until happy?

That's what lagering does--smooths out the flavors.

Are you supposed to do all of this outside of the keg and transfer after the lagering? Why?

You can lager in the keg, or lager in the fermenter.

And most importantly, has anyone gone against this advice (crash fast, carb, serve) without issue? So many methods are hangups from old bad info. 90min boil for dms, rehydrating yeast, sugar adding a cider flavor, etc. Wanting to make sure doing this has been proven to be better than not, rather than for unquestioned tradition.

Thanks all!

I'm doing an accelerated ferment with a dark lager right now. Brewed it Sunday, expect to start crashing tomorrow night, plan to keg it on Saturday night or on Sunday.

It will be drinkable then, but another week or two and it'll be great. I don't need a long period of lagering with this recipe.

I've done the same with a very nice Pils.

 

[specharka]

I’ve done it both ways. As much as I’d like to say that brewing canon is worth observing, I’ve noticed measurable improvements in my lagers by spending extra time at diacetyl rest vice lagering temperatures. The last one I brewed, a German Pils, was barely 4 weeks old (1 week lagering) before I submitted it to a local comp where it placed 2nd in its category.

I don’t believe that it’s necessary to lager for an extended period of time. Commercial breweries brew and package lagers within 28 days, and there’s no reason homebrewers can’t achieve the same thing. Pitching a sufficient amount of yeast, oxygenating well, aggressively controlling fermentation temperature, and monitoring specific gravity are keys to success in brewing lagers.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

If you understand and plan for a few things, you will be fine. #1 Correct fermentation temp. Know your yeast and what it prefers. Lower temps = longer fermentation time. Research the yeast you are using and plan accordingly. Know the esters it will throw, and characteristics it will present, if fermented warmer. If you are ok with them, go for it. #2 Diacetyl rest. This is not lager specific. Give it some time toward the end of fermentation, at the correct temps (generally above 63F), for the yeast to clean itself up. #3 Sulfur. Some lager yeasts will throw a LOT of sulfur and your brew will initially smell like rotten egg dog farts. This scares the hell out of many a first time lager brewer. Fortunately it is highly volatile. Don't panic, time cures this.

My typical lager (not all inclusive though) is 2 weeks in the fermentation chamber at somewhere between 50F and 55F depending on the yeast. Some yeasts can go warmer and be done a few days sooner. Then 2 to 3 days at 65F. Then it goes back down (cold crashing) between 35F to 40F. A couple days after cold crashing begins, the gelatin goes in and does it's job while lagering. After a week, its kegged and carb'ed. For a couple days, morning and evening I release the pressure a couple times making sure any volatile fumes get voted off my planet. I'm just short of a month, brew to tap. I have however found that some recipes do improve with another week or two in the keg.

If you are really in a hurry, brew a nice clean Kolsch instead. Tell your friends is a lager. It's kinda like cheating (ok, i'm kidding, don't lie to your friends)

 

[Lefou]

Kolsch is a nice style to experiment with.
It's an ale yeast, but it behaves much like a bottom fermenting lager yeast. It clears up well but does manage to carb in the bottle nicely. My first attempt at this style landed me a very nice result between a BJCP Leichtbier and kolsch.
The wort was fermented at 58F for about two weeks and then I bumped it up to about 62F. It cleared up very well, but unfortunately didn't last long enough for me to consider cold aging.
Now there's a dedicated refrigerator to cold age my beers I might consider a larger batch to chill longer and see for myself how much the beer changes.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Thank you all for your replies! I will look into the quick lager methods. I figured it was an old hang-up, but wanted to make sure. Thanks again!

 

[day_trippr]

Otoh...Having enjoyed the benefits I'm convinced that "long" lagering is not an old hang up.
Dismissing centuries of practice seems imprudent when the real issue is impatience...

Cheers!

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Have you done a controlled A/B test? Not doubting that you have gotten solid beer from the longer rest, but it is also possible that you could get the same quality from the shortened method.

Tradition is fine, but I prefer efficiency of time (slightly different than impatience). I'll probably go with the shorter method, and be aware of any off flavors that could be attributed to the way I handled he beer.

 

[Hopalong]

The experiments about fast lagering are performed on Prohibition style beer which lacks certain types of complex sugar needed in ale and lager. The sugar is lacking because the Beta rest is omitted in recipes. When the Beta rest is skipped conversion doesn't take place and maltose and maltotriose aren't formed. Yeast deals differently with complex sugar than it does with simple sugar, glucose. During secondary fermentation yeast absorbs maltose through the cell wall and an enzyme within yeast converts maltose back into glucose. The glucose is expelled back through the cell wall and it becomes yeast fuel. Gravity reduces closer to expected FG during secondary fermentation. After two weeks the beer is kegged without adding priming sugar or CO2. During the aging/lagering period yeast works on maltotriose and natural carbonation occurs which is much finer than sugar and CO2 carbonation. The gravity reaches expected FG.
A recipe recommending fully modified malt, single temperature infusion, only primary fermentation and adding priming sugar or CO2 for carbonation produces a beer similar in quality to Prohibition style beer which is quick and easy to make.
Due to the brewing method and the malt used to produce the beer under experimentation, fast lagering experiments have no tie in with authentic lager.

When a diacetyl rest is used the beer is krausened due to the beating yeast takes during the high temperature rest. Unless a brewer is good at producing diacetyl eliminate the rest because it causes problems. It's easier to clean up the conditions that cause diacetyl than to mess with yeast. The rest is only a temporary patch, diacetyl returns.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Hopalong: not caring about making it exactly authentic. I want something enjoyable and not full of flaws, not worrying about pedigree and winning a competition due to style guidelines. So are you saying I can get away without even doing the temperature rise at the end? Do you have experience it doing this way?

 

[Blazinlow86]

Hopalong: not caring about making it exactly authentic. I want something enjoyable and not full of flaws, not worrying about pedigree and winning a competition due to style guidelines. So are you saying I can get away without even doing the temperature rise at the end? Do you have experience it doing this way?

Imho the d rest is kinda case by case yeast by yeast. No real yes or no answer. I always do it to be safe.cheers

 

[Bilsch]

When talking about temperature it's important to remember that yeast don't just produce ethanol and carbon dioxide but in fact a host of other compounds including higher and lower alcohols (methanol, isoamyl, isobutanol, propanol etc) and acetates (ethyl, isobutyl, isoamyl acetate etc). Which ones and how much the the yeast produce is very temperature dependent. The main goal/benefit to fermenting cold and lagering cold is the reduction of these substances which results not only in a cleaner flavor but more importantly, to me at least, are the health effects of beers with reduced fusels and esters. You young guys with bullet proof livers probably don't care too much about a little hangover but when you get older fusels hurt more. Everyone is in such a hurry anymore but if you can keep the ferment temperature below 50f and lager near freezing, yes it will take a little longer but your body will thank you for it.