Why hop Spice/Fruit/Veggie beers?

[kanzimonson]

I've been debating with myself about the necessity of late hop additions in spice/fruit/veggie beers (not bittering hops). I like to think that in many standard beer styles, the hops ARE the spice. They're the flavor and aroma. So if you're making a beer that's emphasizing a different flavor and aroma, why add late hops?

On the one hand, Jamil frequently says about spice/fruit/veggie beers, "you have to have a good base beer first, and then build your spice/fruit/veggie into it." That would be an argument for adding hops as normal.

But I just don't see the point. I know a lot of people have pumpkin ales coming up (me included) and interesting holiday beers (Vanilla Coffee Porter here!). I don't want to risk any contradictory flavors and aromas competing with the spices I've chosen for my beers.

Some of you might say "Pick hops that are complementary with the style. A spicy German hop might work with the pumpkin pie spices in pumpkin ale." But again, that doesn't really answer the question. You're just adding one more spice to your beer. And you're just adding hops because you think you're supposed to.

And sure, I realize you need to keep your eye on the IBUs here - late hop additions have small IBU contributions, and that needs to be shifted to the bittering hops if you choose to have no late hop additions. And some of the spices we add to flavored beers (cinnamon and coffee in my case) impart their own bitterness that calls for LESS bittering hops. But that's not what this is about.

Help me out here! What's everyone else's thoughts on this subject?

 

[mitch171]

BeerTools.com Recipe Library - Belgin Pumpkin Ale

I thought the same thing and I am very happy so far. It hasn't finished but it smells great and smaples are tasteing great.

I was trying to name a porter virgin porter and ended up making it my nickname. I did figure out how to change the nickname though.

Anyway tell me what you think.

 

[Buffman]

I agree. If brewing a beer featuring an adjunct flavor, I see no need for late hops. Actually, late hops may interfere with the spice, etc. flavor intended. I definitely add bittering hops in moderation, little, if any, flavoring hops, and NO aroma hop additions. I've brewed a green chile beer on a blonde ale base using low-alpha Sterling hops and a pumpkin ale with an early hop addition only. The hops present themselves enough to know you're drinking beer, but they do not step on the toes of the other flavors.

 

[kanzimonson]

I like that you chose a style and pretty much stuck with it. I'll be interested in hearing about the intensity of the spices at drinking time. That's one complaint I have about people describing their pumpkin ales around here. "It tasted plenty pumpkin-y to me!" doesn't really help me gauge how much spice I want to add to my own.

Also I see your bitterness is on the low end for the style, which I think is a good choice. I think in my recipe I may reduce bitterness to half of what I would normally put in, to really conjure up the flavor of pumpkin pie.

 

[mitch171]

I am asuming the spices will contribute some bitterness, so I did not want to over do it. I may tweak this in the future as this is my second AG batch and second time I have ever made a recipe. I feel like I am picking up recipe creation quite well. I am very excited about this one.

 

[kanzimonson]

My first few recipe creations went well... Then they got crazy. I HIGHLY recommend Ray Daniels' Designing Great Beers if you're learning to craft you own recipes. It helps you understand the relationship of all the ingredients and why certain beers are made with specific methods. Best homebrewing book out there, so long as you have some prior knowledge and experience (which you obviously do mitch).

 

[mitch171]

I think I will pick up that book sometime soon. My Pumpkin ale finished fermenting it is not in secondary, it smells and tastes good, I am sure it will be better/less watery once it is carbonated and a little older.

 

[mitch171]

My Belegain Pumpkin Ale is in the keg and I had some tastes of it. I want more spice and a bit more body. It is probably right on for a blond ale style but I want more creaminess and spice to it.

So I made a tea with more spice in a cup of water then boiled 1/2 lb of lactose sugar and added that to the keg. Now it tastes much more like I would like it to.

Maybe someone else could brew up my recipe and see what they think.

The lactose added that whipped cream to the top of my pie I am very happy!

 

[kanzimonson]

Thanks for the post-brew follow up. I suspected your spices were a little low when I first read the recipe. I suspect you and I are shooting for similar beers, except mine will be much more red in color:

10.5# two-row
2# crystal 60*
1.5# dark munich
1# flaked barley
.5# caramunich
.5# carafoam
2 15oz cans pumpkin, one in mash, one in boil

.5T cinnamon, 1t nutmeg, 1t allspice (full boil)
Cluster pellets (full boil - 15 IBUs)
.5T cinnamon, 1t nutmeg (10 min)

1 vanilla bean (in secondary 1-2 weeks to taste)

6.5gal
Target O.G. 1.060

Reasoning behind choices:
-My spices are quite a bit higher than yours, and they're in the mid range for what I've read on the forums. I want a very noticeable spice level but not overwhelming.
-My bitterness/gravity ratio is half yours, in an effort to sweeten the beer (BTW, the IBU/GU ratio is a huge point I picked up from Daniels's book).
-I used a lot of specialty grains that will leave a lot of residual sugars and dextrines for more sweetness and mouthfeel.
-The flaked barley will immensely thicken the beer's mouthfeel.

I'll be brewing this Saturday so I'll let you know how it turns out!

 

[mitch171]

Just so you know I can hardly detect hop bitterness in this. The color was also highly influenced by the pumpkin (which is what I was going for). It is a red orange color quite deep actually.

As for the spice amount, I think you are going to be better off. I just got a digital scale so I can understand when people are using weight instead of tsp/tbsp. I now see I am on the low end. Many people here I think want very subtle pumpkin pie spice, I did not.

I also think when the spice is added to the boil the effect is more on the fragrance and less on the taste. I am happy with the smell but the taste was lacking, I think maybe a combo is going to be the way to go in the end. Kinda like dry hopping?

I am still learning about the different influences of different malts and specialty grain. Thanks for sharing your thought process. I look forward to hearing how it comes out.

I also notice you are using half the pumpkin I did, I do recommend thinking about increasing that, I am able to taste and feel the pumpkin, but hardly. I plan on adding a can the next time.

 

[jamilz]

On the one hand, Jamil frequently says about spice/fruit/veggie beers, "you have to have a good base beer first, and then build your spice/fruit/veggie into it." That would be an argument for adding hops as normal.

What? A good base beer does not mean late hops. I would say you can make any number of outstanding beers with nothing but a bittering addition. Don't add late hops to most spice/herb/vegetable beers.

On page 263 in Brewing Classic Styles for the section on spice/herb/veg it even says remove the late hops for most beers of that style.

 

[kanzimonson]

But I guess what I'm askng is if the beer is still in style if the late hops are removed. Especially from a style that traditionally has even a noticeable amount of late hops... Like some English beers with a flowery hop background. If I make a Cherry Northern Brown but leave out all late hops, will I lose points for not brewing to style?

 

[jamilz]

In something as delicately hopped as that? I wouldn't dock points as there is so little hop character in the commercial examples.

Now if you're trying to make a fruit Imperial IPA, then the lack of late hops would be a problem. Of course, that is why it is extremely hard to make a good fruit Imperial IPA.

 

[mitch171]

Well my Belgian Pumpkin Ale is on tap now. As this is my second AG brew I have now learned I need to change my water source. I am getting a bit of flavor and scent from the chlorine. So I decided to do a light dry hop (.4 oz Saaz). I will post again after a week on this. With out the dry hop it is still tasty and I really like it. I also decided to put this on nitro and through a stout faucet. I can say this is a great way to get that whipped cream on top.

 

[mitch171]

The dry hopping or just a week longer aging has completly rid this of any bandaid off flavor. I am very very happy with this. So I guess hop wise I would say light during the boil and little or no aroma hops. Then if you want a very small amount of dry hopping enhances the final beer. At least this was my experience.