Why Bother Brewing with Lager Yeast?

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MuddyMo

MuddyMo

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This is something I've been thinking about for awhile. I got into this hobby after discovering there was more to beer than what BMC was offering. Why would I then want to turn around and brew a low flavor pale lager or Pilsner? Other than the satisfaction of accomplishing an advanced brewing technique, or meeting style requirements for a brewing competition, why would I ever want to spend the extra time and effort required to brew using a lager yeast?

For those who read more than the first paragraph of a post before shooting off a reply (how many "Not all lagers are Pilsners!" flames this post will get?), I have enjoyed Schwarzbier, Altbier, Marzen and Bock styles, all very flavorful beers traditionally brewed using S. pastorianus. I suppose it might be a challenge to duplicate the flavor of Anchor Steam, but other than that example, can I not come very close to duplicating the flavor in all those styles using ale yeast? And if a pale appearance is required so as to not scare off a faint of heart BMC drinker, can I not accomplish that by brewing a cream ale?

I'm a geek about brewing equipment and love to research brewing chemistry and the history of various styles. But, I trust this is true for most home brewers, I have limited time and resources. I care more about how a beer tastes than how it looks. So I am serious when I ask if there is a compelling reason to consider home brewing with lager yeast.
 
Less esters and a cleaner profile. Marzen, Helles, and Negra Modelo as examples wouldn't be the same without lager yeast. I don't have good enough temp control to brew lagers but I certainly would if I could and I probably would never brew pilsner. I do agree that clean beers can be achieved with ale yeast but there is a difference.
 
If you have attained familiarity with ale strains to be able to discern/duplicate the neutrality that is common from Lager strains as well as the attentuative potentials then so be it, good for you.

Even the grandfather of brewing Papazian has managed to isolate a house strain that performs well in both tasks. After all, they are the same organism only some are found to perform better in cold than others. Not unlike the human condition.

But, I take offense to the pidgeon holing that Pilsner is generalized as a low flavor product. Pilsner Urquell, for example, explodes with hop flavor because there is little else that takes center stage. By this, and some other examples, I arugue that Pilsner is anything but flavorless despite the fact that it is neither heavily bittered nor malt oriented.

Perhaps this is why the BMC lagers are classified separately by the BJCP. While they are based on the Pilsner style, they have been basterdized and muted into something only distantly related.
 
MuddyMo said:
This is something I've been thinking about for awhile. I got into this hobby after discovering there was more to beer than what BMC was offering. Why would I then want to turn around and brew a low flavor pale lager or Pilsner? Other than the satisfaction of accomplishing an advanced brewing technique, or meeting style requirements for a brewing competition, why would I ever want to spend the extra time and effort required to brew using a lager yeast?

For those who read more than the first paragraph of a post before shooting off a reply (how many "Not all lagers are Pilsners!" flames this post will get?), I have enjoyed Schwarzbier, Altbier, Marzen and Bock styles, all very flavorful beers traditionally brewed using S. pastorianus. I suppose it might be a challenge to duplicate the flavor of Anchor Steam, but other than that example, can I not come very close to duplicating the flavor in all those styles using ale yeast? And if a pale appearance is required so as to not scare off a faint of heart BMC drinker, can I not accomplish that by brewing a cream ale?

I'm a geek about brewing equipment and love to research brewing chemistry and the history of various styles. But, I trust this is true for most home brewers, I have limited time and resources. I care more about how a beer tastes than how it looks. So I am serious when I ask if there is a compelling reason to consider home brewing with lager yeast.
Click to expand...

From my experience you can always get close but never the same flavor when using Ale yeast vs. Lager yeast. I don't think it has anything to do with looks, much like how a European Hefe yeast taste much different then lets say a Chico strain, a lager yeast will provide different flavors then Ale yeasts can ever do.

That said, I don't think you've had a good pilsner yet... of the ones I've had that were not BMC, they were anything but flavorless.
 
Altbier is actually an ale ;)

But I've thought about this question as well esp w/ the availability of clean fermenting well attenuating ale yeast such as Pacman for an example.

While I've brewed lagers before, I generally stick w/ ales for all the stated reasons. However, I am brewing a Dunkel and a Czech Pils next weekend for not only the challenge of it but I really do enjoy both of those styles when done properly.

Perhaps I would be able to brew something similar using an ale yeast but I don't think I would be able to 'nail' either one not using the appropriate yeast.

Everyone does this hobby for different reasons and maybe the more experienced Lager brewers will speak up.
 
I maintain you can't make a lager with an ale yeast. Oh, you can get a pretty "clean" ale, but you can't make a lager. I have a very nice cream ale that I enjoy making in the summer, and it pleases the masses. But it certainly isn't a lager.

A lager yeast, at lager fermenting temperatures, throw less esters and is much "cleaner" tasting. A maibock, dopplebock, etc, are all wonderful when fermented and lagered properly. Can you make a good malty beer with an ale yeast? Well, of course. But it won't be the same as a true lager.

I don't make many lighter lagers, because I'm more of a maibock and Oktoberfest fan. I'm making a Bohemian pilsner later this month, though. I wouldn't bother making a BMC clone, as they are cheap to buy. But making an outstanding dopplebock is fun, and there are few good commercial dopplebocks in the US.
 
MuddyMo said:
1) Why would I then want to turn around and brew a low flavor pale lager or Pilsner?
2) can I not come very close to duplicating the flavor in all those styles using ale yeast?
3) I care more about how a beer tastes than how it looks.
Click to expand...

1) You may find your tastes change. I shared your views when I first started brewing and only wanted to do full bodies ales and hoppy IPAs and such. I find that now that I have made 20-30 of those beer styles - I want to step the flavor profile back a bit, and try to make a clean pale lager or pilsner with my own spin on it. IE - a BMC beer using centennial hops in the first runnings creates a beautifully easy to drink lager with some yeast character that is not unbalancing to the style
2) Yes you can come close. If by close, you mean "not much like it, but you could call it the same thing because you are not motivated enough to actually do it properly", then yes you can come close I have done it. However, close is not 'it'. Close is not good enough at the end of the day for me, it might be for you.
3) If you care about how beer tastes, then you pretty much need to start making some lagers so you can get the taste you are looking for. Trust me, you said you like bocks - I LOOOOVE a good bock. You will never get the same taste you love in a bock using an ale yeast - it is not possible, I have tried, and it is close. Close is not Bock, Bock is Bock. Do it man! Its hard, but try starting small, like 2 gallons. Its worth it - but only when you are ready.

You asked :mug:
 
Everyone approaches this hobby differently. Some brew extract, some brew all grain. Some brew only ales, some brew ales and lagers. Some of us just want decent beer at a decent price and a hobby to boot, others really delve into it technically and look at it as a challenge.

So, while you essentially say, why brew a lager?... I say, why not?
 
GilaMinumBeer said:
I take offense to the pidgeon holing that Pilsner is generalized as a low flavor product.
Click to expand...

Of course Pilsner Urquell is no BMC, but it seems one dimensional to me. But based on what people who have been to Praque tell me, the export version is nothing like the real thing. So I'll concede I may be speaking from ignorance.

I had hoped to be blown away when Boulevard, my hometown brewer, introduced a Pilsner to their regular rotation, but I wasn't.
 
I love playing all across the spectrum of beer with this hobby. At times I am a hop head or a barleywine freak, I love Imperial stout and IPA. But I also love the soft malty character of a Munich Helles, or the rich maltiness of a Marzen or Double Bock. A clean full pilsner with a sharp hop punch balanced by the slight bready tones of Budvar yeast is hard to beat. One should brew whatever they like and if you don't like the subtleties of lagers, why worry. But Lager yeast is worth it to me because it is the only way I can make some of the beers I enjoy drinking. :mug:
 
I think it all comes down to personal preference. If I could drink, bathe, wash my dogs, and water my lawn all with Oktoberfest I wouldn't need water except to make more. Seriously, a good Oktoberfest moves my world. So you asked why brew lagers? Because lagers are the best damn brew on this planet. My opinion of course :) Gotta brew what you love.
 
I even have to say that when I was in the tank room of Bud in St. Louis and was drinking fresh Bud right out of the pigtail, it was really good. Sharp and crisp with a bit of green apple. Lager has its place, and so does BMC.

(everyone can now commence in the lynching of the Brewpastor)
 
newb question here. Persay a fellow was looking to brew a chocolate bock, but doesnt have the means to lager a beer. Could he use Ale yeast instead, and still have an outstanding beer?? I love this beer, and really would like to brew this as my next batch. But, I dont have the funds to build a temperature controller right now.
 
I make the best pilsner in the world. You'll never taste it, but I brew it with multiple infusions, pitch it on an insane amount of yeast, ferment it very cold, and lager it till crystal clear. I've made many batches of the same beer, only changing the amount and type of hops. It's a little hoppy (top end of g. pilsner range), but the spiciness of the saaz hops gives it an edge that I can't wait to get another taste of.

Fermenting it warm, with ale yeast, would make a different beer. A cream ale. If you don't want to make a lager, don't. You have to make what you like. I love my german pils.
 
Yooper said:
A lager yeast, at lager fermenting temperatures, throw less esters and is much "cleaner" tasting. A maibock, dopplebock, etc, are all wonderful when fermented and lagered properly. Can you make a good malty beer with an ale yeast? Well, of course. But it won't be the same as a true lager.
Click to expand...

Rogue Dead Guy is a Maibock recipe made with Pacman ale yeast and it has won gold in that category.

What I don't quite understand about the theory of lager yeast in malty beers is the claim that they create a cleaner beer, which implies the yeast has less impact on flavor, while at the same time being credited with the ability to accentuate the malt flavor, which would imply it does impact flavor.

Now if the explanation is that malt flavor is accentuated because the lager yeast doesn't contribute flavor and results in the full flavor of the malt coming through, I fall back to my contention that something like the Pacman strain can achieve the same result while fermenting at a much more manageable 60 degrees.
 
rodneypierce said:
newb question here. Persay a fellow was looking to brew a chocolate bock, but doesnt have the means to lager a beer. Could he use Ale yeast instead, and still have an outstanding beer?? I love this beer, and really would like to brew this as my next batch. But, I dont have the funds to build a temperature controller right now.
Click to expand...

Don't wanna de-rail to much but I'll give a quick answer:
Lots of people who can't lager do this, go for a clean ale yeast and ferment at the bottom end of the temperature range (swamp cooler works great, search "swamp cooler" if you don't know what this means)
Search for the "OktoberFAST" recipe on here for a great example of this technique (although with a different recipes).
As many have pointed out it will be "close" but not the same as a true lager, it has worked for me as I also don't have lagering capabilities.

Back on topic: If I had the money and space I would lager because there IS a difference in flavor, I enjoy my "lager style with Ale yeast" beers but also realize that the same recipe actually lagered would be even better.
 
passedpawn said:
I make the best pilsner in the world. You'll never taste it, but I brew it with multiple infusions, pitch it on an insane amount of yeast, ferment it very cold, and lager it till crystal clear. I've made many batches of the same beer, only changing the amount and type of hops. It's a little hoppy (top end of g. pilsner range), but the spiciness of the saaz hops gives it an edge that I can't wait to get another taste of.

Fermenting it warm, with ale yeast, would make a different beer. A cream ale. If you don't want to make a lager, don't. You have to make what you like. I love my german pils.
Click to expand...

The argument for a true pilsner carries some weight. I will be looking to find a domestically brewed example that comes closest to a classic pils.
 
Trumer Pils is brewed in Berkeley, CA it recently won a gold at the World Beer Cup for the german pilsner category.
I find I enjoy bohemian pilsners more personally.
 
GilaMinumBeer said:
If you have attained familiarity with ale strains to be able to discern/duplicate the neutrality that is common from Lager strains as well as the attentuative potentials then so be it, good for you.

Even the grandfather of brewing Papazian has managed to isolate a house strain that performs well in both tasks. After all, they are the same organism only some are found to perform better in cold than others. Not unlike the human condition.

But, I take offense to the pidgeon holing that Pilsner is generalized as a low flavor product. Pilsner Urquell, for example, explodes with hop flavor because there is little else that takes center stage. By this, and some other examples, I arugue that Pilsner is anything but flavorless despite the fact that it is neither heavily bittered nor malt oriented.

Perhaps this is why the BMC lagers are classified separately by the BJCP. While they are based on the Pilsner style, they have been basterdized and muted into something only distantly related.
Click to expand...

I agree, you cannot compare a Urquell to any BMC product, that brand being the classic Pilsner style. Saying they are bastardized into mass produced BMC is an understatment. Ever since having a few real Pilsners and pale lagers, seeing a can of Miller Lite say "Pilsner" on it makes me disappointed for those who never had a true, real Pilsner.

But as far as using lager yeast, I would say if you really dug Pilsners and you had the means to make one, who cares if you can buy it? The challenge would be the main attraction for me to try making a pilsner or any lager in general, there is more to the process and you must have more control. But if your friends and family demand a BMC product, just make a batch of cream ale and filter and cold condition it for a bit, and they wont know the difference!
 
I appreciate all the feedback. It is difficult to find much information on this topic beyond the tired old spiel about top vs. bottom and different temperatures for fermentation.

So far, I have confirmed my sense that when using traditional lager brewing techniques, the lager yeast doesn't contribute a distinct flavor component. But I do have a better understanding of how this characteristic makes it desirable for certain styles of beer.

The spirited defense of the flavor found in a well brewed Pilsner has made me reconsider my bias toward that style. I plan to make a greater effort to find lagers that are prized for their distinct flavor.
 
rockfish42 said:
Trumer Pils is brewed in Berkeley, CA it recently won a gold at the World Beer Cup for the german pilsner category.
I find I enjoy bohemian pilsners more personally.
Click to expand...

I do recall enjoying a bottle of Sam Adams Noble Pils on a hot day at a nearby Mexican place, but the flavor was not very memorable. Similar to my experience with Boulevard Pilsner.
 
MuddyMo said:
So far, I have confirmed my sense that when using traditional lager brewing techniques, the lager yeast doesn't contribute a distinct flavor component.
Click to expand...

i would have to disagree with that. i haven't made many lagers, but each yeast i've tried has definitely left it's profile on the beer brewed with it.
 
Go drink a North Coast Scrimshaw Pilsner or an Ayinger Pilsner or a Bitburger Pilsner. All have a great flavor, pretty nice depth of flavor, great hop character. Really delicious.

That's why.
 
Victory Prima Pils is another excellent pilsner.

We get about one person on here a month saying there are no benefits to brewing lager, and that ale yeast can do everything lager yeast can for cheaper and less hassle. All I can say is broaden your horizons a little.

So far, I have confirmed my sense that when using traditional lager brewing techniques, the lager yeast doesn't contribute a distinct flavor component.
Click to expand...

This is false. There are 11 strains of lager yeast available from Wyeast, and 13 strains available from White Labs. Why would they offer such a variety if they don't do anything to contribute flavor to a beer?
 
I don't know why the OP is even posting (or why I'm posting for that matter), sounds to me like he already has his mind made up and it isn't changing. If dead guy ale actually tastes like a real maibock to you, then who cares what you think about lagers.
 
MuddyMo said:
What I don't quite understand about the theory of lager yeast in malty beers is the claim that they create a cleaner beer, which implies the yeast has less impact on flavor,
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say lager yeast have less impact on flavor. Just taste wort some time, any fermentation has a profound impact on flavor. Lager yeast are less fruity than ale yeast. Cold fermentation also results in less evolution of aromatics during fermentation, some of these are hop and malt related and some of these are fermentation related (primarily sulfur compounds). So lagers taste different but not a lower level of flavor, IMO.

You can get the effects of cold fermentation with some ale yeasts but they will still have yeast derived fruitiness. Dead Guy is an excellent example of what a cold fermented ale tastes like. Different than a warm fermented ale and different than a lager but an equally valid and interesting approach.

Some people really like lagers and will go through the hassle of making them (I am in this boat). Some people like really high gravity ales and will go through the hassle of making those (I am not in this boat, my barleywines and RIS will top out at about OG = 1.100 and those can be made with a pretty normal ale process). Some people like sours etc.

Clearly if you are indifferent to gueuze I would not advise that you make lambic for three years and undertake blending. The same applies to lagers.
 
No one has mentioned Steam beer yet, thats an example of where lager yeast are used specifically for it's flavor characteristics when fermented at the high end of lager temps.
 
I have documented split batches with different lager yeasts. S-23, Wy2007, 34/70, and Wy Bohemian Pils yeast. Believe it or not, I like the S-23 far better. It leaves a spiciness that I love. The other yeasts are fairly clean. This is not a subtle difference.

I'm pretty happy about it, because I make a lot of pilsner and S-23 is cheap, especially when re-using cakes.
 
Why would I then want to turn around and brew a low flavor pale lager or Pilsner?
Click to expand...
Why would you want to brew beer at all?

I always tell friends/family/etc that I don't brew beer to 'have beer'. There are a plethora of good examples of just about every style there is and a ton of other great beers that don't fit into a style. I brew because I enjoy the brewing process. That said, does it really matter if I brew a lager or an ale as long as I enjoy the process and the resultant product?

So, why bother brewing with lager yeast? For me it's the same as the answer to "Why bother brewing at all". Because I enjoy it.
 
MuddyMo said:
I mentioned Steam in the OP.
Click to expand...

my bad, i swore someone did and just briefed over your OP and saw that you listed a few types of beer but listed Steam later on in the post. That said, steam beer is still a good example of Lager yeast's distinct flavor that you couldn't easily (if at all) replicate in an ale yeast, or any other lager yeast for that matter, my LHBS has made a Marzen from the White Labs SF lager yeast though and it was quite good... makes me wonder if you could use a Marzen yeast to make a Steam beer.
 
SpanishCastleAle said:
So, why bother brewing with lager yeast? For me it's the same as the answer to "Why bother brewing at all". Because I enjoy it.
Click to expand...

Yes. In the end, enjoyment of the process is what keeps me coming back. But a large part of the enjoyment is also knowing the WHY behind the process and how different actions ultimately impact the flavor of the beer.

When I wanted to do my first partial mash, I went looking for a simple Amber Ale recipe. Generally, Amber ales recipes do not generate a great deal of excitement, but I found many people on this board raving about Alaskan Brewing's Amber Ale. Later, after I learned what goes into making an Alt beer, it made more sense. That makes me interested in exploring Alt brewing techniques because there appears to be a payoff: a deeper more complex flavor in the final product.

A previous reply talked about how S-23 contributed more spiciness than other lager strains. It is one of the few that actually associated a flavor with a particular lager yeast.

I can understand the motivation, "Why brew a lager? Because I want to see if I can." But I think asking why is an important part of acquiring knowledge.
I hope I never get to the point that I don't enjoy a good debate about various aspects of brewing beer.
 

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