Whirlpool @170 bitterness?

[brewprint]

I was going to make an IPA and use an actual whirlpool. My plan was to lower the temp to 170 using my immersion chiller, then add whirlpool hops.

The recipe was going to contain enough bittering hops and a late 5 minute addition to give me about 60 IBUs.

Am I safe to say that if I add around 8 ounces of hops at 170F for 30 minutes that I won't get any bitterness?

I normally just do late additions such as 10 to 0 and am happy with the results. I want to see if I can make a beer a lot hoppier though. I believe that this is what the pros do.

 

[behindthetimes]

I think 30 min at 170F would give you some bitterness, not sure how much. I do my whirlpools at 150F for 30 min, I don't think it imparts any bitterness and that way I don't have to guess.

 

[IslandLizard]

You'll definitely add some bitterness with 8oz of hops at 170F for 30', but not much.

According to Beersmith, AA isomerization, and thus bittering, drops off rapidly under 85C (185F).
Read here how Beersmith calculates bittering from whirlpool additions (and no-chill effects).

For a whirlpool at 170F I end up counting only half of what Beersmith calculates (at 185F). And that may be even too generous. But with 8oz of high AA hops it may still add up to an extra 10-15 IBUs.

FWIW, I usually have to keep adding a little heat during those 30-45 minutes to keep the recirculating wort in the kettle (using a pump) around 170F.

 

[brewprint]

Maybe I'll try 160. I have an electric kettle so holding the temp should be a non issue.

You guys notice a lot more flavor this way versus just doing late additions?

This is for a 10 gallon batch which is why there are so many hops.

 

[Callacave]

People need to stop worrying about actual IBU numbers. You need to do trial and error, and find out what you like, and what works for you.

You'll get bitterness from dry hopping. If you don't believe me, then check out some of Scott Janish's awesome work.

 

[brewprint]

People need to stop worrying about actual IBU numbers. You need to do trial and error, and find out what you like, and what works for you.

You'll get bitterness from dry hopping. If you don't believe me, then check out some of Scott Janish's awesome work.

I've been dry hopping for years and no bitterness so that's out.

I'm only concerned about the whirlpool. But yes I do agree it will be trial and error.

 

[IslandLizard]

I've been dry hopping for years and no bitterness so that's out.

I'm only concerned about the whirlpool. But yes I do agree it will be trial and error.

Good point, don't confuse hop bite with bitterness.

 

[jrodmfish]

I've been dry hopping for years and no bitterness so that's out.

I'm only concerned about the whirlpool. But yes I do agree it will be trial and error.

You really have to experiment with different hopping schedules and temperatures to figure out what you like. I whirlpool at 170 often.

If you're going for the big hop flavor you see in a lot of IPAs today, you need to find the right balance between whirlpool and dry hops. And I mean lots of dry hops. When you hop at these levels, you absolutely can get some bitterness from dry hopping.

 

[Callacave]

I've been dry hopping for years and no bitterness so that's out.

I'm only concerned about the whirlpool. But yes I do agree it will be trial and error.

Without getting into specifics, it's a different type of bitterness from dry hopping. It's smoother. You can actually get all of the bitterness you need from just whirlpooling.

I'm not saying just dry hopping will get you to the level of bitterness you need. I'm just trying to get you to think in a different way, and definitely go by your own taste buds. By all means the IBU scale is a decent barometer for getting you relatively close to where you need to be, but with recent studies it's becoming more apparent how wildly inconsistent the IBU scale can be in the real world.

 

[RM-MN]

According to this article from Brew Your Own, hop oil isomerization is the highest at boiling and stops completely at 175 F. A whirlpool at 170 should add zero bitterness.

http://byo.com/hops/item/2808-hop-stands

 

[Callacave]

According to this article from Brew Your Own, hop oil isomerization is the highest at boiling and stops completely at 175 F. A whirlpool at 170 should add zero bitterness.

http://byo.com/hops/item/2808-hop-stands

It's really not so true anymore. Check out this article. Very interesting.

http://scottjanish.com/zero-hot-side-hopped-neipa-hplc-testing-sensory-bitterness/

 

[Dcpcooks]

Alpha acid extraction decreases dramatically below 175-180 from what we have read and experienced it stops below 170. Humulinone extraction can add bitterness to beer after the boil during fermentation and dry hoping. It's a different flavor profile as it's a different component of the hop.

We have been playing around with whirlpool temps for a while now. What we have found is once you drop below 170 post boil we notice a large drop off in bitterness from the hop addition. You will probably notice a shift from bitterness to aroma as you cool through that temp range.

We have also been playing with adding bitterness through dry hoping. Again more aroma than true bitterness that we normally associate with boil hop additions. We took Janis's work as a starting point a while back. http://scottjanish.com/increasing-bitterness-dry-hopping/

We have found that we like a nice bittering adddition through first wort or 60-90 min additions and then pulling more aroma from larger late additions like flameout or whirlpool additions. We tend to whirlpool between 210 and 180 for 20 min then chill below 170. The reason we settled on this is repeatability. We can calculate the alpha acid extraction consistently and we have a timeframe as a reference. We have noticed a very nice aroma that is consistent and relatively stable over time since we are not flashing off the oils with a boil. 20 min is a good amount of time to compact the trub pile and develop a good cone. We drop the chiller in and cool it to below 170 as we whirlpool. Then we let it settle for a few additional min's and push it through a plate chiller to the fermentor.

We then add more aroma with a big dry hop or two.

This has worked best for us with higher abv beers like IPA and DIPA's where you want a nice big ibu content to balance the beer and big aroma for the nose.

Cheers.

 

[Calder]

At 170 you will not notice anything .... if there is anything to notice with respect to bittering. I late hop at 175 and am not seeing any bittering issues.

..... but with recent studies it's becoming more apparent how wildly inconsistent the IBU scale can be in the real world.

Nothing recent about it. IBU scales are just estimates, and different calculators (Rager, Garetz, Tinseth) give wildly different results. And it has been this way since the origination of IBU calculations - Nothing new; no study needed to!

Problem is, people take them as being 'gospel' until they know better.

 

[brewprint]

Well I did the batch yesterday and chilled to 170. It dropped to 165 and the PID kicked it back up in a couple of minutes.

The 8 ounces of hops were at 170 for 30 minutes. By the time I was done it smelled like berries of some kind. That was with Mosaic, Amarillo and Comet.

I can't wait to try this in a couple weeks. I plan to do a different hop schedule for dry hop, for each 5 gallons.

 

[Albionwood]

Working now! Must have been offline for maintenance or something.

It's really not so true anymore. Check out this article. Very interesting.

http://scottjanish.com/zero-hot-side-hopped-neipa-hplc-testing-sensory-bitterness/

Dead link - gives a database error. Apparently his site is no longer functional.

 

[Callacave]

Dead link - gives a database error. Apparently his site is no longer functional.

Eh....you just gotta try a little harder.

Just go to http://scottjanish.com/ Should be in his beer study posts somewhere.

He's actually getting together with Michael Tonsmeire (aka..The Mad Fermentationist) to open a brewery in the future.

 

[kingwood-kid]

Scientifically speaking, I have no idea how much bitterness hopstands and dry-hops contribute, my best guess being "some, not a lot." That having been said, I don't have much more faith in the accuracy of IBU calculators, and agree that IBU is a number that fails to address your preference, any other aspect of the beer, or the multitude of non-iso alpha acid ways your beer can be bitter..

When I make IPAs I calculate all hops added after the flame goes out at zero IBUs, because it's probably close enough given the relatively huge number I get from my bittering addition.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I have a spreadsheet that uses OG/FG and style to generate a range of "typical" IBUs. I use that in conjunction with small FWH and moderate late boil additions for bittering, usually targeting the middle of the range in my spreadsheet.

I do some pretty large WP additions at 170 for 20 minutes that I don't count for any bittering. I also add zero IBU's for dry hops. I have been extremely pleased with the results for NEIPAs. I haven't done enough other styles to comment on them.

The bottom line is that while 170 degree WP additions may technically add some bitterness, it's different from the boil bitterness and and it's not really a factor IMO.

 

[hezagenius]

Here's something to take a gander at. Some interesting conclusions in it.

https://www.homebrewersassociation....-boilwhirlpool-hop-additions-bitterness-beer/

 

[day_trippr]

Well...a couple of "conclusions", some bogus data, and a whole lot of remaining unknowns.
Not a great work, that's for sure...

Cheers!

 

[brick_haus]

Alpha acid extraction decreases dramatically below 175-180 from what we have read and experienced it stops below 170. Humulinone extraction can add bitterness to beer after the boil during fermentation and dry hoping. It's a different flavor profile as it's a different component of the hop.

We have been playing around with whirlpool temps for a while now. What we have found is once you drop below 170 post boil we notice a large drop off in bitterness from the hop addition. You will probably notice a shift from bitterness to aroma as you cool through that temp range.

We have also been playing with adding bitterness through dry hoping. Again more aroma than true bitterness that we normally associate with boil hop additions. We took Janis's work as a starting point a while back. http://scottjanish.com/increasing-bitterness-dry-hopping/

We have found that we like a nice bittering adddition through first wort or 60-90 min additions and then pulling more aroma from larger late additions like flameout or whirlpool additions. We tend to whirlpool between 210 and 180 for 20 min then chill below 170. The reason we settled on this is repeatability. We can calculate the alpha acid extraction consistently and we have a timeframe as a reference. We have noticed a very nice aroma that is consistent and relatively stable over time since we are not flashing off the oils with a boil. 20 min is a good amount of time to compact the trub pile and develop a good cone. We drop the chiller in and cool it to below 170 as we whirlpool. Then we let it settle for a few additional min's and push it through a plate chiller to the fermentor.

We then add more aroma with a big dry hop or two.



Cheers.

Sorry that Im not familiar with who you are so excuse my naivety.
When you refer to "We" in your referenced studies, to whom are you referring?
Have you published your studies? I would like to know more about it.

 

[Dcpcooks]

I'm just a OCD homebrewer who is trying to open a brewery! So technically I'm a nobody We refers to the guys I brew with and the things we have learned along the way. One of the guys we brew with is a head brewer at a local brewery so that's where this all started. He was looking for data on hop utilization post boil. The brewery sold the old pilot system a few years ago after they got their process and recipes down. Every now and then we brew test batches or try out new hops or yeasts. It's not really practical for them to experiment much on 30 bbl gear. So we get to play with fun stuff along the way.

 

[jeremy2027]

FWIW I did a 6 gallon Maris Otter and Citra SMASH not long ago.
I added no hops during the boil chilled the wort to 170*F then added 5oz of Citra for 30 min while whirlpooling at 170*F using my electric kettle.

The beer is actually quite good TONS of citrus aroma and flavor with very little hop bitterness. I would recommend experimenting with this technique and see what you come up with. It can be a good tool in the tool box for Pale Ales and IPA's.

 

[bcltoys]

FWIW I did a 6 gallon Maris Otter and Citra SMASH not long ago.
I added no hops during the boil chilled the wort to 170*F then added 5oz of Citra for 30 min while whirlpooling at 170*F using my electric kettle.

The beer is actually quite good TONS of citrus aroma and flavor with very little hop bitterness. I would recommend experimenting with this technique and see what you come up with. It can be a good tool in the tool box for Pale Ales and IPA's.

I loves me SMASH,do you do any dry hopping.