jabberwalkie
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Title really spells it out, but when can you stop calling yourself a beginner?
when do you graduate from beginner
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Dcpcooks
Well-Known Member
I'm unaware of any graduation [emoji310] unless your speaking of a course like Siebel. But even with after a degree and a trip to Germany you'd still be considered a newb by a pro brewer. So keep learning and keep making beer, pay it forward when you can and don't worry about it. Brew on mug
flars
Well-Known Member
You're no longer a beginner when you stop learning.
Look at it like gardening,with gardening you only get one chance a year so you might be an expert in 20 or so years. same thing with brewing,if you only brew once a month it might take a while. I've been brewing since 2012 and will be brewing my 176th batch this week,and I learn something every day.
Dang, I'm still a beginner after brewing for over 10 years. Today I researched limit dextrinase and learned that while I didn't know much about it I still don't know enough. It quickly denatures above 149F but how long exactly is "quickly"?
jrgtr42
Well-Known Member
In a lot of hobbies - music, sports, etc, there is a saying that it takes 10,000 hours of practice to become proficient at something. So, extrapolating that it takes about 4 hours to brew a batch of beer, maybe 2500 batches?
I certainly don't consider myself an expert at brewing (or pretty much anything else, for that matter,) but I am comfortable enough with the processes and what to do if something goes south that I may not be an absolute Beginner anymore - maybe advanced beginner? early intermediate? That said, I am still experimenting with certain methods of brewing, things I can do with the brew process that maybe I still am a beginner. I've never yet brewed a lager, I don't bother with water chemistry yet (I do have the town's water report and basically everything is right down the middle for good brewing water.)
But like Flars said, "You're no longer a beginner when you stop learning."
I certainly don't consider myself an expert at brewing (or pretty much anything else, for that matter,) but I am comfortable enough with the processes and what to do if something goes south that I may not be an absolute Beginner anymore - maybe advanced beginner? early intermediate? That said, I am still experimenting with certain methods of brewing, things I can do with the brew process that maybe I still am a beginner. I've never yet brewed a lager, I don't bother with water chemistry yet (I do have the town's water report and basically everything is right down the middle for good brewing water.)
But like Flars said, "You're no longer a beginner when you stop learning."
I don't know if I agree with this... I get the sentiment, that continuous learning, experimentation, etc. is important, (That I do agree with) but in terms of beginner/not beginner, I think it's the opposite...
You're no longer a beginner when you realize that to continue to advance in this hobby, or even just to find enjoyment in it, requires constant learning, and stretching beyond your comfort zone.
I think you'll ALWAYS be just a beginner if you stop learning... If you think you know all there is to know, then you're always be nothing more than an arrogant noob. Wisdom comes from knowing that there is always some new to know...
I also think that you're no longer a beginner when you realize that every mistake big or little is NOT a guarantee that you ruined your beer. When you get the words, "Is my beer ruined" "Should I dump it" and "Is it infected" out of your mindset...
AND when you realize that even if it is ruined, or infected, it really isn't the end of the world.
When you truly experience what it means to RDWHAHB
I agree with this. I kind of think you are no longer a beginner when you start to understand your process. When you can solve problems on the fly during a brew day. When you are making your own recipe adjustments and understand how they will impact the beer. I have completed 8 brew days in the last 3 months and at this point I dont consider myself a total noob. Still a TON to learn in many areas, but I know enough to be dangerous
Dude, I've been brewing every couple weekends for five years, and I'm pretty sure I'm still a beginner. Every_single_batch I make, I have a brand new "Aha!" moment, that literally changes everything.
Four batches ago, I realized I don't like all varieties of hops.
Three batches ago, I finally learned how to fight diacetyl.
Two batches ago, I realized I've been under-pitching my yeast since forever.
This batch was the first time I washed and re-used my yeast from a previous primary to save money.
This batch was the first time I realized that cooling concentrated wort by dumping it over ice was impacting my hop utilization.
Recently I learned that my local HBS may not be storing their LME properly, because their light always looks like amber. I never understood why.
Recently I learned that my serving PSI is too high, and one of my off flavors may be due to over-carbonation.
I had never heard of clearing with gelatin until a few weeks ago.
These are all things that a pro knows, and has known for a long time. A lot of people on this forum know that all this information has been readily available for years. It might make me sound dumb to not have known some of this stuff. What can I say? It's all new to me. I'm learning when I can. In fact, the more time that goes by, the less I feel I truly know.
My advice: never stop learning, and don't try to label yourself. Your friends and colleagues will tell you what level they perceive you as, and you can choose to take it to heart or ignore it. Just enjoy yourself.
Four batches ago, I realized I don't like all varieties of hops.
Three batches ago, I finally learned how to fight diacetyl.
Two batches ago, I realized I've been under-pitching my yeast since forever.
This batch was the first time I washed and re-used my yeast from a previous primary to save money.
This batch was the first time I realized that cooling concentrated wort by dumping it over ice was impacting my hop utilization.
Recently I learned that my local HBS may not be storing their LME properly, because their light always looks like amber. I never understood why.
Recently I learned that my serving PSI is too high, and one of my off flavors may be due to over-carbonation.
I had never heard of clearing with gelatin until a few weeks ago.
These are all things that a pro knows, and has known for a long time. A lot of people on this forum know that all this information has been readily available for years. It might make me sound dumb to not have known some of this stuff. What can I say? It's all new to me. I'm learning when I can. In fact, the more time that goes by, the less I feel I truly know.
My advice: never stop learning, and don't try to label yourself. Your friends and colleagues will tell you what level they perceive you as, and you can choose to take it to heart or ignore it. Just enjoy yourself.
JordanKnudson
Well-Known Member
I like this question, and all the answers so far!
I think I have a practical answer that is less dependent on the "never stop learning" metric -- although I 100% agree with that, too. Because while I appreciate the humility of someone who says, "I don't yet know enough about how my fermentor geometry affects attenuation, and as such am still learning, ergo still a beginner," I don't think that's really how we define the term "beginner." Plus, as an earlier commenter pointed out, no one would ever surpass the level of beginner.
I'd say that the true beginner phase of brewing is the time when you are learning about the basic skills and science of the craft, and getting a handle on how to actually produce beer that is consistently good (but not necessarily great). Once you have 1) learned the process and can work it comfortably and dependably from start to finish, including good sanitation procedures; 2) learned the basic science of how beermaking works (think basic mash enzymes & starch conversion, boil items such as hop utilization, Maillard reactions, & DMS, and fermentation fundamentals) and can begin to tinker with those variables to effect changes in the final product; and 3) succeeded in reaching a point where most or all of the beer you produce is decent enough to drink and share with at least the BMC crowd (doesn't mean that you have to be producing award winners yet); then I think you can feel secure in graduating to intermediate status.
Perhaps I've forgotten something, or someone else would tweak this answer a bit, but I think this is a decent rough sketch of what we learn as beginners in the hobby. (And again, I'd say "true beginners," because anyone who is a decade into this and still calls themselves a beginner is either being tongue-in-cheek or humble, or really hasn't been trying).
I think I have a practical answer that is less dependent on the "never stop learning" metric -- although I 100% agree with that, too. Because while I appreciate the humility of someone who says, "I don't yet know enough about how my fermentor geometry affects attenuation, and as such am still learning, ergo still a beginner," I don't think that's really how we define the term "beginner." Plus, as an earlier commenter pointed out, no one would ever surpass the level of beginner.
I'd say that the true beginner phase of brewing is the time when you are learning about the basic skills and science of the craft, and getting a handle on how to actually produce beer that is consistently good (but not necessarily great). Once you have 1) learned the process and can work it comfortably and dependably from start to finish, including good sanitation procedures; 2) learned the basic science of how beermaking works (think basic mash enzymes & starch conversion, boil items such as hop utilization, Maillard reactions, & DMS, and fermentation fundamentals) and can begin to tinker with those variables to effect changes in the final product; and 3) succeeded in reaching a point where most or all of the beer you produce is decent enough to drink and share with at least the BMC crowd (doesn't mean that you have to be producing award winners yet); then I think you can feel secure in graduating to intermediate status.
Perhaps I've forgotten something, or someone else would tweak this answer a bit, but I think this is a decent rough sketch of what we learn as beginners in the hobby. (And again, I'd say "true beginners," because anyone who is a decade into this and still calls themselves a beginner is either being tongue-in-cheek or humble, or really hasn't been trying).
Morrey
Well-Known Member
I started brewing those terrible canned, pre-hopped extracts back in the 80's. I have brewed with insulated mash tuns, HERMS systems and enjoy BIAB.
Point being, I still learn new things every time I brew, thusly I remain excited over a hobby that has spanned 35 years. Once I think I know everything there is to know, maybe I'll stop brewing. But I think they'll toe tag me before that.
Maybe not exactly a beginner....but still learning. We should consider ourselves a "work in progress". Ask for help when you need it. HBT is a very kind environment compared to other places where folks intend to embarrass you to make themselves feel empowered. HBT is a good place to read and learn...and keep learning!
Point being, I still learn new things every time I brew, thusly I remain excited over a hobby that has spanned 35 years. Once I think I know everything there is to know, maybe I'll stop brewing. But I think they'll toe tag me before that.
Maybe not exactly a beginner....but still learning. We should consider ourselves a "work in progress". Ask for help when you need it. HBT is a very kind environment compared to other places where folks intend to embarrass you to make themselves feel empowered. HBT is a good place to read and learn...and keep learning!
str1p3s
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I think when you start to realize why you are doing the things you are doing instead of just doing them because you are following instructions, then you are at least intermediate. I also think if you can sit down and visualize more or less exactly the steps you would carry out on brew day without having to refer to notes or instructions.
I'd say you can call yourself an intermediate brewer when you can make consistently good beer and get your process down. Whether you brew all grain or not you're going to find that there are a lot of variables involved (i.e. temp control, pitching rates, water chemistry, sanitization, etc.) As they say, practice makes perfect. Learn from your mistakes and look at the occasional bad batch as an opportunity to learn and improve your technique.
I think there should be several categories defining experience, perhaps these:
beginner
experienced/intermediate
advanced
expert
pro (though that's questionable)
I have done 32 batches; first 3 were extract, next 29 were all-grain, last three were BIAB. I don't consider myself a beginner.
I suspect beginners tend to only understand enough about the process to reproduce the process (more or less). When you start understanding not just the what but also the why, you're moving away from beginner status to...experienced? Intermediate? Something else?
I believe I came along pretty fast; during those 32 batches I learned how to do all-grain; bought a PH meter to assess and correct mash PH and water chemistry; bought an RO system to produce my water, along w/ a TDS meter; bought a refrigerator with which I control fermentation temperatures (along w/ an Inkbird); learned how to keg beer and learned about CO2, regulators, carbing beer; built a keezer; upgraded my initial equipment to more advanced and better capacity equipment; learned how to control O2 exposure during racking from fermenter to keg; learned to dry hop in the keg; learned how to tweak my recipes to improve my beer.
I don't think I qualify as a beginner--so I don't think number of batches necessarily has a lot to do with it.
In fact, I believe that once one can produce good or excellent beer repeatedly, one is no longer a beginner. I can do that.
BTW, the things that I think allowed me to move along at a fast pace were listening to experienced brewers' advice (mostly on HBT), reconciling the differences when they appeared, reading and then reading more, buying brewing books that focused not just on recipes but on process, and perhaps most importantly, following a continuous quality improvement approach where I try to do something better every time I brew.
beginner
experienced/intermediate
advanced
expert
pro (though that's questionable)
I have done 32 batches; first 3 were extract, next 29 were all-grain, last three were BIAB. I don't consider myself a beginner.
I suspect beginners tend to only understand enough about the process to reproduce the process (more or less
). When you start understanding not just the what but also the why, you're moving away from beginner status to...experienced? Intermediate? Something else?I believe I came along pretty fast; during those 32 batches I learned how to do all-grain; bought a PH meter to assess and correct mash PH and water chemistry; bought an RO system to produce my water, along w/ a TDS meter; bought a refrigerator with which I control fermentation temperatures (along w/ an Inkbird); learned how to keg beer and learned about CO2, regulators, carbing beer; built a keezer; upgraded my initial equipment to more advanced and better capacity equipment; learned how to control O2 exposure during racking from fermenter to keg; learned to dry hop in the keg; learned how to tweak my recipes to improve my beer.
I don't think I qualify as a beginner--so I don't think number of batches necessarily has a lot to do with it.
In fact, I believe that once one can produce good or excellent beer repeatedly, one is no longer a beginner. I can do that.
BTW, the things that I think allowed me to move along at a fast pace were listening to experienced brewers' advice (mostly on HBT), reconciling the differences when they appeared, reading and then reading more, buying brewing books that focused not just on recipes but on process, and perhaps most importantly, following a continuous quality improvement approach where I try to do something better every time I brew.
I think I'll never "graduate" from being a beginner.
Every time I think I've got something down, there are new facets of brewing to explore and learn.
I went from mashing in my kitchen to using an indoor all electric HERMS, changed up with a CFC, added different pumps, and so on. I learned so much during that process. Then, when I felt that much of the brewing I was doing was fairly routine I started learning as much as I could about water chemistry. Then I learned more about the debranching of amylopectins in the mash, and some of the biochemical processes. I became a BJCP judge, and learned so much about sensory perception.
I've brewed over 500 batches. Either I"m a very slow learner, or there is just so much more to learn.
Every time I think I've got something down, there are new facets of brewing to explore and learn.
I went from mashing in my kitchen to using an indoor all electric HERMS, changed up with a CFC, added different pumps, and so on. I learned so much during that process. Then, when I felt that much of the brewing I was doing was fairly routine I started learning as much as I could about water chemistry. Then I learned more about the debranching of amylopectins in the mash, and some of the biochemical processes. I became a BJCP judge, and learned so much about sensory perception.
I've brewed over 500 batches. Either I"m a very slow learner, or there is just so much more to learn.
flars
Well-Known Member
I think there should be several categories defining experience, perhaps these:
beginner
experienced/intermediate
advanced
expert
pro (though that's questionable)
I have done 32 batches; first 3 were extract, next 29 were all-grain, last three were BIAB. I don't consider myself a beginner.
I suspect beginners tend to only understand enough about the process to reproduce the process (more or less
I believe I came along pretty fast; during those 32 batches I learned how to do all-grain; bought a PH meter to assess and correct mash PH and water chemistry; bought an RO system to produce my water, along w/ a TDS meter; bought a refrigerator with which I control fermentation temperatures (along w/ an Inkbird); learned how to keg beer and learned about CO2, regulators, carbing beer; built a keezer; upgraded my initial equipment to more advanced and better capacity equipment; learned how to control O2 exposure during racking from fermenter to keg; learned to dry hop in the keg; learned how to tweak my recipes to improve my beer.
I don't think I qualify as a beginner--so I don't think number of batches necessarily has a lot to do with it.
In fact, I believe that once one can produce good or excellent beer repeatedly, one is no longer a beginner. I can do that.
BTW, the things that I think allowed me to move along at a fast pace were listening to experienced brewers' advice (mostly on HBT), reconciling the differences when they appeared, reading and then reading more, buying brewing books that focused not just on recipes but on process, and perhaps most importantly, following a continuous quality improvement approach where I try to do something better every time I brew.
There needs to be one more category. All knowing. "All Knowing", is when you can stop learning.
I read Flar's post and got from it what you're saying above, but I think you nailed it with the bold type Revvy.
I think you cease to be a "beginner" when you can make beer without making the same mistakes over and over. This is saying you know and can repeatedly execute the basic process to reach your end goal, without failure.
But as others have said, you never stop learning. You should always strive to expand beyond the knowledge of that basic process.
But as others have said, you never stop learning. You should always strive to expand beyond the knowledge of that basic process.
StewMakesBrew
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This is a great question. There have been three "graduation" moments for me so far - the first was years ago when I stopped buying "beer kits" either online or at the LHBS and started formulating my own recipes - albeit with extract. That made me feel like an "intermediate" brewer more control over what I was doing.
My second was when I "graduated" to all grain about 3 years ago - and why I brewed only extract for 16 years before doing this remains a mystery. Man, the whole hobby took a giant leap forward for me there
My third was when I went to "real" Cornelius kegs versus 5L party "cans" in a tabletop kegerator. Again, major step forward in terms of my satisfaction with this and my frequency of brewing.
Due to space and spousal considerations, I haven't "graduated" to temp controlled fermentation - yet. This house is not conducive to it - I could put a fridge in the basement and temp control that as a chamber, but I don't like hauling full fermenters up and down the basement stairs (full kegs are bad enough but at least if you drop a keg it should stay sealed up - a fermenter, not so much. So, that's a next step for me. For now, on the occasional lagers I've done, I'll water/ice bath them, and I've waterbathed at room temp (my fermentation space is my laundry room and the fermenter goes in the laundry sink to contain spills/burps/etc.) to keep the temp steadier and damp out exothermic heat generated by the yeast. But I don't feel like that will be a "level up" step.
So, when do you stop being a beginner? When you feel like you've stepped it up a notch from where you started!
My second was when I "graduated" to all grain about 3 years ago - and why I brewed only extract for 16 years before doing this remains a mystery. Man, the whole hobby took a giant leap forward for me there
My third was when I went to "real" Cornelius kegs versus 5L party "cans" in a tabletop kegerator. Again, major step forward in terms of my satisfaction with this and my frequency of brewing.
Due to space and spousal considerations, I haven't "graduated" to temp controlled fermentation - yet. This house is not conducive to it - I could put a fridge in the basement and temp control that as a chamber, but I don't like hauling full fermenters up and down the basement stairs (full kegs are bad enough but at least if you drop a keg it should stay sealed up - a fermenter, not so much. So, that's a next step for me. For now, on the occasional lagers I've done, I'll water/ice bath them, and I've waterbathed at room temp (my fermentation space is my laundry room and the fermenter goes in the laundry sink to contain spills/burps/etc.) to keep the temp steadier and damp out exothermic heat generated by the yeast. But I don't feel like that will be a "level up" step.
So, when do you stop being a beginner? When you feel like you've stepped it up a notch from where you started!
Michigan_Wolfman
Well-Known Member
Brewing is a hobby where you really never stop learning. Each brew gives you the opportunity to refine your methods, gain confidence in your abilities, or throw caution to the wind by experimenting with new ideas and boldly go where your homebrew has never gone before. That being said, when I was finally able to brew a favorite recipe consistently without any noticeable variation in quality was one" graduation" moment for me.
When you are comfortable with the process, and consistently make good beer.
I work for and with a professional brewer. He's still exploring new ideas and methods, and makes terrific beers. I've had several hobbies over my almost 50 years on this planet, and in my experience homebrewers are the most likely to share ideas, advice, and just general practices to help one another. On brew days, once the mash is in and the pumps are chugging along, invariably we sit and bounce ideas off each other to improve what we're doing. I don't think there are definitive "levels" to brewing knowledge; if you're just starting out, but have a firm grip on the basics, you're in like Flynn. Brewing mostly takes patience and accepting you're going to have some failures along the path. Look at your local Craigs List or Offer Up...you will always find someone parting with their setup due to one of the following reasons: lack of time, just couldn't get into it, got discouraged. We're a breed apart. Heck, sometimes I just pace my own brewery talking to myself about how I can do this better. Of course that may just be my beer talking. I love my beer and I adore what I can do. I still make some stupid mistakes after a year and a half, but I won't stop because of them...I learn FROM them.
Owly055
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This is the best answer............... Approaching 150 brews, and I'm still a beginner.
H.W.
God Revvy, I missed you during those couple years when if you did post, I didn't see them.
oceanic_brew
Well-Known Member
applescrap
Be the ball!
I think we're conflating two related but different things in this thread: beginner, and learning.
A beginner, by definition, has a lot of learning to do. I think some people, by virtue of the fact that even after a ton of experience are still learning, are assuming that learning = beginner.
I do not see that the two are the same, i.e., if you're learning you must be a beginner. It is, IMO, clearly a sign of a vibrant and healthy intellect that anyone sees continuous learning as part and parcel of what they do.
But just because you're still learning, does that make you a beginner?
*******************
I do a lot of shooting sports. Started reloading ammunition in 2008, eventually doing reloading for pistol, rifle, and shotgun. Even though I'm in my 9th year doing this, I feel like I have 20 years of experience. Why? Because the internet helped me move along far faster than if I hadn't had access to it.
Am I a beginner simply because I'm still learning about it? I don't really think so. I've taught others how to reload, and they are doing well. I cast my own bullets from lead alloy, and even powdercoat them instead of lubing. I've powdercoated rifle bullets and affixed gas checks to them, and generated 2200 fps with a 2 MOA accuracy. Not perfect, but not bad.
Now, I'm not as far along in brewing as I am in reloading and shooting. But in a way, just as with reloading where consistency and predictability are very important, I can repeat results in brewing. Beginner, I'm not. But expert? Also not.
*****************
I think there's a distinction here that hasn't been identified yet. I see Yooper offering up advice from a long career in brewing. Given how long she's been brewing, and how many batches, I doubt I'll ever even get to what she's brewed to this point.
There is a place my knowledge ends, and hers continues. Much of that I suspect is simply experience--she's seen and tried so much more than I, and can draw on that, whereas....me, not so much.
I can tell someone a process, and ingredients, that will produce good beer. But if it comes to trouble-shooting someone else's problems, I may, but probably more likely not, have something to contribute. I see someone say "back in 2011, I had that problem w/ a keg, here was the solution" and I simply don't have that. All I can do is read it, hope to internalize it, and if I ever run across that situation I might remember it. But those with specific experiential learning have something I don't yet have.
**************
Long post, as it turns out. I see all hobbies like this--reloading, brewing, poker, golf--having learning curves that are like peeling an onion. Just when you get something figured out, there's another layer to peel. And no matter how expert we are, or experienced, we never quite get to the center of that onion.
Just so happens I like onions....and peeling those layers.
A beginner, by definition, has a lot of learning to do. I think some people, by virtue of the fact that even after a ton of experience are still learning, are assuming that learning = beginner.
I do not see that the two are the same, i.e., if you're learning you must be a beginner. It is, IMO, clearly a sign of a vibrant and healthy intellect that anyone sees continuous learning as part and parcel of what they do.
But just because you're still learning, does that make you a beginner?
*******************
I do a lot of shooting sports. Started reloading ammunition in 2008, eventually doing reloading for pistol, rifle, and shotgun. Even though I'm in my 9th year doing this, I feel like I have 20 years of experience. Why? Because the internet helped me move along far faster than if I hadn't had access to it.
Am I a beginner simply because I'm still learning about it? I don't really think so. I've taught others how to reload, and they are doing well. I cast my own bullets from lead alloy, and even powdercoat them instead of lubing. I've powdercoated rifle bullets and affixed gas checks to them, and generated 2200 fps with a 2 MOA accuracy. Not perfect, but not bad.
Now, I'm not as far along in brewing as I am in reloading and shooting. But in a way, just as with reloading where consistency and predictability are very important, I can repeat results in brewing. Beginner, I'm not. But expert? Also not.
*****************
I think there's a distinction here that hasn't been identified yet. I see Yooper offering up advice from a long career in brewing. Given how long she's been brewing, and how many batches, I doubt I'll ever even get to what she's brewed to this point.
There is a place my knowledge ends, and hers continues. Much of that I suspect is simply experience--she's seen and tried so much more than I, and can draw on that, whereas....me, not so much.
I can tell someone a process, and ingredients, that will produce good beer. But if it comes to trouble-shooting someone else's problems, I may, but probably more likely not, have something to contribute. I see someone say "back in 2011, I had that problem w/ a keg, here was the solution" and I simply don't have that. All I can do is read it, hope to internalize it, and if I ever run across that situation I might remember it. But those with specific experiential learning have something I don't yet have.
**************
Long post, as it turns out. I see all hobbies like this--reloading, brewing, poker, golf--having learning curves that are like peeling an onion. Just when you get something figured out, there's another layer to peel. And no matter how expert we are, or experienced, we never quite get to the center of that onion.
Just so happens I like onions....and peeling those layers.
applescrap
Be the ball!
@mongoose I appreciated your thoughtful post. You made some good points. You started with the definition of beginner as being someone who has a lot to learn. I am beginner than in many things as I agree with you its part of a healthy intellect. You then mention a skill activity in which you obtained some expertise. I think for me I look at Brewing different. I would put cooking in that category possibly as well. You end by mentioning golf. To me they are different and I'll explain why.
Any beginner with some good directions can produce beer, even their first time. In fact a beginner can even reproduce world-class beers given the right ingredients and equipment in my opinion. However many might disagree with that and I believe in general people have an overinflated idea on Brewing but there is no doubting that a beginner could produce quality beer.
I am an expert golfer. I've shot even-par more times than I can remember, I have played in the 60s and I generally score in the 70s. Even though it is possible, it is very unlikely anyone will ever go out and do that their first time playing. It would be embarrassing for me to outline the amount of effort and time I put into golfing to play at that level. I am embarrassed that I spent so many years of my life seeking excellence in a game. Now you could compare me to a PGA Tour professional and call me a beginner related to them. However in a golf tournament I can't sign up as a beginner because it just wouldn't be fair. I've shot like two guns in my life it wouldn't be fair for me to have a contest with you in shooting. In Brewing we could all compete regardless of numbers of years experience and I'm not so sure there's a guaranteed Victory with years of experience. In fact I think somebody could have Thirty or forty years of experience and make terrible beer and no experience and make great beer. I'm not just trying to argue here and clearly I am not a beginning Brewer as are many of us. I guess to me one thing is an art another is a skill.
Any beginner with some good directions can produce beer, even their first time. In fact a beginner can even reproduce world-class beers given the right ingredients and equipment in my opinion. However many might disagree with that and I believe in general people have an overinflated idea on Brewing but there is no doubting that a beginner could produce quality beer.
I am an expert golfer. I've shot even-par more times than I can remember, I have played in the 60s and I generally score in the 70s. Even though it is possible, it is very unlikely anyone will ever go out and do that their first time playing. It would be embarrassing for me to outline the amount of effort and time I put into golfing to play at that level. I am embarrassed that I spent so many years of my life seeking excellence in a game. Now you could compare me to a PGA Tour professional and call me a beginner related to them. However in a golf tournament I can't sign up as a beginner because it just wouldn't be fair. I've shot like two guns in my life it wouldn't be fair for me to have a contest with you in shooting. In Brewing we could all compete regardless of numbers of years experience and I'm not so sure there's a guaranteed Victory with years of experience. In fact I think somebody could have Thirty or forty years of experience and make terrible beer and no experience and make great beer. I'm not just trying to argue here and clearly I am not a beginning Brewer as are many of us. I guess to me one thing is an art another is a skill.
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Well, I hope this doesn't sound arrogant but I would say that if I were to give you a recipe, instructions, and equipment, and brewed the same exact beer as you, that my beer might come closer to "world-class" than yours would.
I know of 0 new brewers who produce a world-class beer, and less than about 25% of expert brewers can do so.
Can a beginner make a drinkable beer, with good instruction? Absolutely. Can they make a good beer? Maybe. Can they make a very good beer? Possibly, but not likely. World-class? No effin way. Most pro brewers don't make a beer that good.
My beers are good. I've won a few major competitions. My recipes are solid, and I have really good skills. I'm a skilled BJCP judge, and a decent brewer. Saying that a novice can do the same from written instructions is an insult, but we are all learning and growing (I hope!). No way I'll ever consider myself an expert, but I would debate that a novice can brew the same quality as me.
I'm a beginner in many ways, as I am learning more 500 level brewing chemistry than ever before. Just when I think I've learned something well, there are new ideas and techniques that challenge those practices. Then I'm a beginner all over again.
My first batch was pretty good (I'd been making wine a long time before I started brewing), but certainly not excellent. I think a first-time brewer can make a very drinkable beer for sure.
Here's what is funny to me: i remember when you first became a member. Very newbie. Very beginner. I think you're past that status, assuming I have any right to bestow status on anyone here.
I'll play with the golf stuff and respond why I think they're similar; interested in hearing what you have to say about it.
Such a claim would be all the better for evidence showing it is actually possible, but I'll accept it's theoretically possible.
I think it's as close to impossible as anything is. Brewing is essentially a mental skill and while golf has its share of mental elements (a lot, actually), it also has a lot of physical skill elements. Brewing? Not really.
I would disagree. You aren't as skilled; that doesn't make you a beginner. If you imagine the trek from first-time golfer to PGA Tour pro as being a scale from 0 to 100, you're clearly well up in the 90 range and I'd suggest, as a percentage of all golfers, you are clearly in the top 1 percent.
A beginner you're not, at least in golf.
Agreed. I see golf as analogous to brewing in this way. I was on a quest to see how good I could get at golf. No idea where the top was, and I didn't become serious about the game until I was in my early 40s. Had a lot of bad habits to overcome.
Anyway, I brought my handicap down to a 6.7, and I have shot a round of par golf on a regulation course playing by the rules. But only one.
There were lots of nuances that I learned about on my quest, from mental game issues (Bob Rotella? Robert Parent?) to learning to read a golf course (I have a number of golf course design books) to playing a course backwards to figure out how to play it forward....well, there's an awful lot of things. Pre-shot routine. Risk-reward. Learning how different lies affect shots (fliers anyone?). Reading a green. Grain. Poa versus bent.
AS, I even had a custom golf club business for a while, and I believe I made some of the best golf clubs you could buy; the end of the Tiger era flooded the market and that was that.
Here's the sad part: two back surgeries. I can't hold posture during a swing late in a round, and either I speed up the swing or stand up during the swing--and you I am certain know that neither is a recipe for a good shot. (I'm doing some new workout elements, and I'm hopeful I can get back at it--but I lament that I was never able to find out what my game might have topped out at).
I agree 100 percent that the lack of physical skill in brewing sets brewing apart from golf in that way. My equating golf to brewing was that just as golf has all these interesting things to learn that I noted above, brewing has them too--mashing, recipe development, water amendments, understanding pH, yeast starters, different yeasts, sanitation, fermentation temperature control, sulfate/chloride ratio, dry hopping, chill haze, using finings, eliminating O2 from the process post-fermentation, hop utilization.....I could go on and on, as I'm sure you could too.
Golf, for me, has all these interesting mental elements to it. So does brewing. That's the equivalency I was going for.
All this golf talk makes me want to find a way to play 18 with you; we certainly would not be without topics of conversation!
************
BTW, one of the things that really helped my development as a golfer was playing with better players. They'd make different choices than I was making, and I'd wonder why. Sometimes I'd ask. Learned a lot that way.
That's why I pay attention to what the experienced/expert brewers here say; if they're doing something different than I am, I want to know why.
applescrap
Be the ball!
Oops, repost.
applescrap
Be the ball!
Here's what is funny to me: i remember when you first became a member. Very newbie. Very beginner. I think you're past that status, assuming I have any right to bestow status on anyone here.
I'll play with the golf stuff and respond why I think they're similar; interested in hearing what you have to say about it.
Such a claim would be all the better for evidence showing it is actually possible, but I'll accept it's theoretically possible.
I think it's as close to impossible as anything is. Brewing is essentially a mental skill and while golf has its share of mental elements (a lot, actually), it also has a lot of physical skill elements. Brewing? Not really.
I would disagree. You aren't as skilled; that doesn't make you a beginner. If you imagine the trek from first-time golfer to PGA Tour pro as being a scale from 0 to 100, you're clearly well up in the 90 range and I'd suggest, as a percentage of all golfers, you are clearly in the top 1 percent.
A beginner you're not, at least in golf.
Agreed. I see golf as analogous to brewing in this way. I was on a quest to see how good I could get at golf. No idea where the top was, and I didn't become serious about the game until I was in my early 40s. Had a lot of bad habits to overcome.
Anyway, I brought my handicap down to a 6.7, and I have shot a round of par golf on a regulation course playing by the rules. But only one.
There were lots of nuances that I learned about on my quest, from mental game issues (Bob Rotella? Robert Parent?) to learning to read a golf course (I have a number of golf course design books) to playing a course backwards to figure out how to play it forward....well, there's an awful lot of things. Pre-shot routine. Risk-reward. Learning how different lies affect shots (fliers anyone?). Reading a green. Grain. Poa versus bent.
AS, I even had a custom golf club business for a while, and I believe I made some of the best golf clubs you could buy; the end of the Tiger era flooded the market and that was that.
Here's the sad part: two back surgeries. I can't hold posture during a swing late in a round, and either I speed up the swing or stand up during the swing--and you I am certain know that neither is a recipe for a good shot. (I'm doing some new workout elements, and I'm hopeful I can get back at it--but I lament that I was never able to find out what my game might have topped out at).
I agree 100 percent that the lack of physical skill in brewing sets brewing apart from golf in that way. My equating golf to brewing was that just as golf has all these interesting things to learn that I noted above, brewing has them too--mashing, recipe development, water amendments, understanding pH, yeast starters, different yeasts, sanitation, fermentation temperature control, sulfate/chloride ratio, dry hopping, chill haze, using finings, eliminating O2 from the process post-fermentation, hop utilization.....I could go on and on, as I'm sure you could too.
Golf, for me, has all these interesting mental elements to it. So does brewing. That's the equivalency I was going for.
All this golf talk makes me want to find a way to play 18 with you; we certainly would not be without topics of conversation!
************
BTW, one of the things that really helped my development as a golfer was playing with better players. They'd make different choices than I was making, and I'd wonder why. Sometimes I'd ask. Learned a lot that way.
That's why I pay attention to what the experienced/expert brewers here say; if they're doing something different than I am, I want to know why.
Wow, kind of kindred spirits you and I. Sorry about the back, damn. My back is bad too, I gave it to my children I think, and would do it again. stenosis they call it with pretty severe herniation. Only is bad when it flares. Like your comparisons to golf and cant wait to talk golf with you. New thread, ehh? Will you make me some sticks. Bent a little flat. Have you read rotellas new book, how champions think? Imo it is his best work ever. Im a choking golfer, but you get to a point where you know how to play. Would love to play with you. Ever come out to Colorado? You seem caught up with spine angle and such, imo your best, lies in a zone free of such thought. At some point you know how to do it and you need to get out of your own way.
See this is where brewing differs, for me at least. I guess its possible to choke brewing. Never crossed my mind, but sure, one could choke brewing. Gosh, look at what some put into it, one puts those kind of attitudes in and one could choke making toast. Ive had master golfers ask me how to play guitar and I am like s..t, I'll trade you skills. Kind of a cruel irony really, it is easy to take something we are good at for granted. And obsess on something we want to be good at that someone else does with ease. I was a bad new member at times, and appreciate the nod forward. Not any better brewer. Much more knowledge though sure.
Consider this final thought, mino choi talks in two different podcasts about the spring water he gets in wisconsin where germans settled for the water. He got a perfect score of 50 on his first mead, and on and on. He said when he got lazy and switched to tap water he started losing. I am going to brew with fiji from now on. I will always be learning and am very particular about what I choose to retain.
Bilsch
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Think about that the next time you get on a commuter flight and your captain is like 24 years old.
Actually, that quote is more along the lines of it taking 10,000 hours to become world class.
Proficient takes somewhat less time. If not, we'd have a lot of planes flown by 24-year-olds hitting the ground short of the runway.
crunch1224
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!. Beginner: A person who can follow a recipe make a few mistakes and make beer.
2. Intermediate: A person who can follow a recipe maybe make one mistake and make consistent drinkable beer.
3. Advanced: A person who can follow a recipe make no mistakes. Make great beer very consistently. Knows why they make great beer.
4. Semi Pro: A person who writes their own recipes and knows the outcome of said recipe before they even brew it. A person who knows how every style of beer should taste and can tell you why. A person who can identify faults in a beer.
5. Pro: A person who understands almost all the idiosyncrasies of the process and materials involved in making beer, and can produce semi world class beer.
6.Master brewer: A person who can produce world class beer and who has met all the requirements of previous levels.
2. Intermediate: A person who can follow a recipe maybe make one mistake and make consistent drinkable beer.
3. Advanced: A person who can follow a recipe make no mistakes. Make great beer very consistently. Knows why they make great beer.
4. Semi Pro: A person who writes their own recipes and knows the outcome of said recipe before they even brew it. A person who knows how every style of beer should taste and can tell you why. A person who can identify faults in a beer.
5. Pro: A person who understands almost all the idiosyncrasies of the process and materials involved in making beer, and can produce semi world class beer.
6.Master brewer: A person who can produce world class beer and who has met all the requirements of previous levels.
