what's the deal with church folks???

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I'm a church folk. Grew up in a Southern Baptist church, went to a Baptist university, Graduated with a minor in Bible.

I drink primarily Scotch and just recently started working with brewing cider.

Don't lump us all together. Unfortunately there are a group of people who associate several portions of scripture with an admonition to not drink alcohol at all. When there is no such directive. There is however, a directive to not get "drunk" (because of the lack of self control). People seem to forget the nobody drank water back when Jesus was alive for fear of catching some disease.

I have no issue with someone not wanting to sell alcohol, or drink alcohol for that mater. But at least be honest with yourself and your customers and give the real reason. I'll think you a better man for it, if you really care what I think.
 
shecky said:
I'm a "church folk" who provides beer, both homebrew and commercial, for many church gatherings. Only the really zealous, evangelical types consider drinking in moderation a sin.

Hell, my parents organized and attended many church dances. When they said they were going to a church dance, I knew that was code for "make sure you pee before bed because your father will be facedown in the bathroom in about five hours."
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Right. I should have worded it differently. By excess I meant as an addiction and not just going out and getting blottoed once in awhile. :D Bottom line as a Christian is if it's more important than God, then it's a problem.
 
shecky said:
I'm a "church folk" who provides beer, both homebrew and commercial, for many church gatherings. Only the really zealous, evangelical types consider drinking in moderation a sin.

Hell, my parents organized and attended many church dances. When they said they were going to a church dance, I knew that was code for "make sure you pee before bed because your father will be facedown in the bathroom in about five hours."
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Obviously, you're not Baptist... :D

Church sponsored dances would have traditional Baptists moving quickly in circles in their graves. (So as to not be construed as a twirl-like dance move.)

Here's a typical response on the issue from more traditional baptists... emphasis mine.

The Bible DOES say to avoid strong drink, to not be controlled by anything but the Holy Spirit, and to not be caught up in things that would distract, or that could cause you to lose your Christian testimony.

Dancing these days, you must admit, is most often NOT a waltz or tapdancing. It is something far more sensual, and not something which a Christian ought to engage in UNLESS it is alone in your living room with your spouse.

Going to a dancing hall (bar, club, etc) comes with an assumption (by the world) that alcohol is present and most likely a part of your activity....so it presents a serious compromise of any testimony you might have to those watching you....and believe me, there ARE people watching you whether they ever confront you over it or not. In the very least they will look at these actions and say in their mind, "Hes a Christian and he does the same things I do....so what's the big deal about being a Christian?"
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Someone's watching me....

Dude, "Lifestyle Evangelism" is the preferred nomenclature.
 
I'm always thoroughly befuddled by the puritanical attitudes about alcohol in this country, personal histories aside. My uncle is a recovering alcoholic- and he was a violent wife-beating summabitch, too. My cousin is also recovering. My mother in law comes from a dry county in NC and saw some devastating alcoholism there with people driving into other counties or across statelines to get their alcohol. In spite of this, we regularly have beer at family functions. I drink socially with members of my church. Not an issue.

My wife grew up in the Church of the Brethren, one of the historic peace churches that came from Germany (and we both attend now). Old Brethren abstain from alcohol, but it's not a question of 'sin'. They recognize that historically beer and wine and spirits had a place in popular culture, but made a decision not to partake. It is a personal choice, not one of church teaching. My FIL is 67 and never drank a drop until last year- when he had a glass of wine over a meal. My inlaws don't buy any alcohol- and only drink wine- but don't care one way or another what others do.
 
I guess my real complaint is not so much that they stopped selling beer. I can always pick up a pizza to go and drink beer at home.

My real complaint is the notion that "church folk" are offended at the very sight of someone drinking a beer. And trust me ,as a life long North Carolinian, I know there are plenty here that are deeply offended. (I'm related to quite a few.:))

If you interpret your religion to mean you shouldn't drink alcohol then don't drink alcohol. The problem is that it doesn't stop there. They have to use the power of the pulpit to push for laws that force their religious beliefs on the community at large.

Example: A neighboring town had a "liquor by the drink" referendum on the last election ballot. On election day one of the local churches organized protests outside the polling place. The had a coffin on the back of a pick-up truck with a sign saying something about drinking and going to hell. They rode back and forth in front of the polling location shouting at people on their way inside. My brother-in-law was there and he said a fight nearly broke out. (The referendum passed by they way.)

As I stated in the original post I'll still eat there. I like the food. It's his place and he can choose to serve or not to serve. But I just don't get it...
 
Revvy said:
Heck at ONE of the churches I interred at as a student, the minister and I would head out to the Ann Arbor Brewing Company, every Sunday after church to "decompress."
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You were interred as a student? Wow, that must have been a rough education!

+1 on being "church folks" that love beer, scotch, rye, bourbon, ........ I also like to say ****, ****, ****, ****** and **** my ****ing ***sack you ****sucking son of a ****wad! :tank:

The problem seems to be that the vocal church folks don't represent the majority, but because they're vocal they seem to. I even hear some atheists are jolly decent fellows! :cross:
 
Churchies are generally "closet" everything. It is all about putting on airs for the masses in public and waiting until you get home to break out the booze, the nuggs, the toys...etc. Just look at the likes of Ted Haggert here in Colorado. If I went to a restaurant and they told me the no longer server alcohol I would do a quick about face. If the food was good I would get it to go so I could enjoy the good food with good company, a good homebrew and no finger pointing banter how the "saved" are God's favorite.
 
kornbread said:
I guess my real complaint is not so much that they stopped selling beer. I can always pick up a pizza to go and drink beer at home.

My real complaint is the notion that "church folk" are offended at the very sight of someone drinking a beer. And trust me ,as a life long North Carolinian, I know there are plenty here that are deeply offended. (I'm related to quite a few.:))

If you interpret your religion to mean you shouldn't drink alcohol then don't drink alcohol. The problem is that it doesn't stop there. They have to use the power of the pulpit to push for laws that force their religious beliefs on the community at large.

Example: A neighboring town had a "liquor by the drink" referendum on the last election ballot. On election day one of the local churches organized protests outside the polling place. The had a coffin on the back of a pick-up truck with a sign saying something about drinking and going to hell. They rode back and forth in front of the polling location shouting at people on their way inside. My brother-in-law was there and he said a fight nearly broke out. (The referendum passed by they way.)

As I stated in the original post I'll still eat there. I like the food. It's his place and he can choose to serve or not to serve. But I just don't get it...
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Just another reason not to live in the South. No Offense man but that is just brutally wrong on so many levels
 
When businesses start talking religion, I take my business elsewhere. Not saying I don't do business with religious types. The service station I use has a "constantly begging for money" church station on all the time, but no one there ever mentions religion.

"A puritan is a person that lies awake at night terrified that someone, somewhere is having a good time."
 
zman said:
Churchies are generally "closet" everything. It is all about putting on airs for the masses in public and waiting until you get home to break out the booze, the nuggs, the toys...etc. Just look at the likes of Ted Haggert here in Colorado. If I went to a restaurant and they told me the no longer server alcohol I would do a quick about face. If the food was good I would get it to go so I could enjoy the good food with good company, a good homebrew and no finger pointing banter how the "saved" are God's favorite.
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Before this thread goes careening off into the netherworld of internet arguments, let me say that your 'lumping' of churchgoing people does absolutely nothing to actually foster any real dialogue. Fundamentalism and intolerance on either side of the aisle/pulpit/microphone is equally destructive.

While I don't agree with the teachings of some denominations, I acknowledge their right to exist.
 
flyangler18 said:
Before this thread goes careening off into the netherworld of internet arguments, let me say that your 'lumping' of churchgoing people does absolutely nothing to actually foster any real dialogue. Fundamentalism and intolerance on either side of the aisle/pulpit/microphone is equally destructive.

While I don't agree with the teachings of some denominations, I acknowledge their right to exist.
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Exactly. Humans are imperfect beings and have flaws, no matter what gender, race, economic status or creed.

Affirmative Action at its most basic level. :mug:
 
zman said:
Churchies are generally "closet" everything.
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"Generally"? Unless you're going to show me some poll numbers then I don't appreciate being generalized.

As a wise man once said, "All generalizations are rubbish." :mug:
 
Well I am not making a sweeping generalization to any one of faith. Nor am I passing judgment on whatever one believes or does as long as it is not harmful or negative to any one else. I thought it was clear that my "Churchies" reference was addressing the "Do as I say not as I do crowd". If one chooses not to drink, smoke, do the horizontal mambo...etc... that is their own business. I just do not want someone interfering with my rights to partake in the aforementioned and I will not force my opinions on others
 
The crux of the drinking issue stems from the bible's point that drinking, as in all things, should be done in moderation. The bible warns against drinking excessively, and that being drunk is a sin, for the reason that you are no longer able to make rash decisions, and bad things happen. You should always be able to control yourself, and not be offensive to others. That's just plain being a good person, religion aside.

Some have taken this ideal to the extreme, and preach against all forms of alcohol as being sinful in of themselves, which is not exactly truthful, but it IS one way to avoid the possibility of getting drunk and doing stupid things, and also of avoiding being a drunk.

Fact is, if this guy doesn't want to serve alcohol, for whatever reason, then you can only tell him your point of view, and vote with your dollars.

There are plenty of "churchgoing" people who are not opposed to having an occasional drink, but nearly all of them are against offending others. As the bible says, be an example for others in yourself. Nobody like an obnoxious drunk.
 
Homercidal said:
The crux of the drinking issue stems from the bible's point that drinking, as in all things, should be done in moderation. The bible warns against drinking excessively, and that being drunk is a sin, for the reason that you are no longer able to make rash decisions, and bad things happen. You should always be able to control yourself, and not be offensive to others. That's just plain being a good person, religion aside.

Some have taken this ideal to the extreme, and preach against all forms of alcohol as being sinful in of themselves, which is not exactly truthful, but it IS one way to avoid the possibility of getting drunk and doing stupid things, and also of avoiding being a drunk.

Fact is, if this guy doesn't want to serve alcohol, for whatever reason, then you can only tell him your point of view, and vote with your dollars.

There are plenty of "churchgoing" people who are not opposed to having an occasional drink, but nearly all of them are against offending others. As the bible says, be an example for others in yourself. Nobody like an obnoxious drunk.
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Plus in this day and age if someone gets druck and goes off and crashes into someone and kills people then the business that sold that person the beverage that got him druck can also be sued. To some people the cost of insurance and licenses is not worth it to serve Al-K-hall. If the city council came in and said no pizza parlors can sell brewskies then that's a different story.
 
I don't care if people tailor their business around their own beliefs or cater to a certain clientelle.....What does get my back up (And this could have been the case with this place) Is when groups try to force the hand of businesses by threatening a boycott. This can be publicly, as is often the case, but also privately like a protection racket. That's not just christians though, all groups have their fringes that like to stick there noses in where they shouldn't oughta.
 
Laughing_Gnome said:
I don't care if people tailor their business around their own beliefs or cater to a certain clientelle.....What does get my back up (And this could have been the case with this place) Is when groups try to force the hand of businesses by threatening a boycott. This can be publicly, as is often the case, but also privately like a protection racket. That's not just christians though, all groups have their fringes that like to stick there noses in where they shouldn't oughta.
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+1 on what Gnome said (but only because he threatened to boycott my posts if I didn't!) :tank:
 
75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol
this is a interesting sight. I was raised a strict Baptist and Drinking,Rock'n'roll, dancing card playing ect. was just plain wrong. This up bringing was the main reason I do not believe in "church" for myself. My father has passed and my mom has loosened up ALOT I didn’t say I don’t believe in God but Church is another story. But you should see the look my mom gives me when I tell her I think here "church" crutch is worse than my Alcohol crutch
http://www.scionofzion.com/when_christians_drink.htm
 
Understanding that this is not my opinion but, fact 2) In the Bible, verses to show God approves of wine are speaking about unfermented juice. Verses that expose the evils of wine are speaking about intoxicating wine.
GroovePuppy said:
They might want to check fact 4.



I think turning water into wine constitutes making wine, not to mention condoning it's consumption.
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akamatt said:
Understanding that this is not my opinion but, fact 2) In the Bible, verses to show God approves of wine are speaking about unfermented juice. Verses that expose the evils of wine are speaking about intoxicating wine.
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I was hoping for some reference to apfelwein

How do you say apfelwein in Arameic...?
 
akamatt said:
Understanding that this is not my opinion but, fact 2) In the Bible, verses to show God approves of wine are speaking about unfermented juice. Verses that expose the evils of wine are speaking about intoxicating wine.
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Yeah, I think that's a very convenient interpretation. Funny that the same group of people aren't nearly so open to the interpretation of what the bible says about homosexuality or about the various blatant rewrites on the subject.

I think "Everything in moderation" is a reasonable credo. Except when applied to heroin. And to moderation of course. :mug:
 
akamatt said:
75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol
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This can't be serious..... at least I really hope not. yesterday, tomorrow and forever, huh???

So we are to believe that all these Christians back int he day, who were so great, and gave away all their possessions and devoted themselves to God, were fortunate enough to survive solely on fruit juice? Until very recent times, water was extremely unsafe and almost no-one drank straight water (small beer was the Gatorade of the day). So if good Christians drank no alcohol, ever, but drank fruit juice, they were either extremely rich or had a constant case of the runs....

silly
 
I attended Central Bible College Springfield, MO for a year, a Professor was teaching that we should never drink and referred to a verse that said "do not drink until the point of drunkenness or eat until the point of obesity" this guy was fat and I called him on it and he told to "stay skinny and preach that" WHAT to abstain for eating ?!?!?!?! I was told to sit down
 
So is the modern day excuse, that the consumption of any amount of alcohol drinking to drunkenness? I guess that is what you would have to think, and then excuse previous generations because they had to drink out of necessity.
 
Boerderij Kabouter said:
This can't be serious..... at least I really hope not. yesterday, tomorrow and forever, huh???

So we are to believe that all these Christians back int he day, who were so great, and gave away all their possessions and devoted themselves to God, were fortunate enough to survive solely on fruit juice? Until very recent times, water was extremely unsafe and almost no-one drank straight water (small beer was the Gatorade of the day). So if good Christians drank no alcohol, ever, but drank fruit juice, they were either extremely rich or had a constant case of the runs....

silly
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I love it when the truth is so obvious and so absolute. My "religious" teenage years turned me off from religion until my mid-thirties. Now I realize (or believe at least) that most of what I was taught was up-tight, Victorianism and prudishness with no real Biblical justification.
 
GroovePuppy said:
I love it when the truth is so obvious and so absolute. My "religious" teenage years turned me off from religion until my mid-thirties. Now I realize (or believe at least) that most of what I was taught was up-tight, Victorianism and prudishness with no real Biblical justification.
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Damn, sounds like you and I had the same experience. I enjoy my religion a lot more now that I really understand it and how my particular religion translates to my life. I have trouble believing Jesus walked around with such a stick up his arse as we are led to believe.
 
GroovePuppy said:
I love it when the truth is so obvious and so absolute. My "religious" teenage years turned me off from religion until my mid-thirties. Now I realize (or believe at least) that most of what I was taught was up-tight, Victorianism and prudishness with no real Biblical justification.
Click to expand...

Surprise!:fro: Look on the brightside, at least you got the bad part out of the way.
 
shecky said:
Damn, sounds like you and I had the same experience. I enjoy my religion a lot more now that I really understand it and how my particular religion translates to my life. I have trouble believing Jesus walked around with such a stick up his arse as we are led to believe.
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Not to mention that the uptight religious folks weren't exactly who he hung out with!!!!

Parker36 said:
Surprise!:fro: Look on the brightside, at least you got the bad part out of the way.
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lol! You know if my parents fessed up that it was all just a big laugh I think I'd have more respect for them. I decided not to tell them about the gay wedding we had at church a few months back!!
 
shecky said:
Damn, sounds like you and I had the same experience. I enjoy my religion a lot more now that I really understand it and how my particular religion translates to my life. I have trouble believing Jesus walked around with such a stick up his arse as we are led to believe.
Click to expand...

After a lifetime of going to church, bible school and bible college I have turned to there is probably not 1 God. but everyone needs something so if that is what you choose to believe than more power to you.
 
akamatt said:
I think the point is that the Aramaic translation is not perfect to English
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Psalms 104:14,15 "You cause the grass to grow for the cattle, and plants for people to use, to bring forth food from the earth, and wine to gladden the human heart, oil to make the face shine,..."

John 2:10 (Jesus turns the water into wine) "and said to him, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and then the inferior wine after the guests have become drunk. But you have kept the good wine until now."

I don't think this refers to juice.
 

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