What makes a neipa hazy?

[Jbrew]

So I read a few posts and this article as well.
http://allaboutbeer.com/article/hazy-ipa/

I googled some as well, and some info came up, but nothing real cut and dry.
So what causes the haze? I read some say its the yeast not dropping out, others use flour. I always thought it was dry hop additions when primary ferment was at its highest activity.

Also, does this attribute to the juicy factor?

And How do you keep the haze? Does it drop out eventually if I don't chug thru the keg fast enough?
I want to do something close to sierra Nevada's hazy little thing ipa.
Following the info from the site, I'm planning one bittering addition of magnum, and then I have 2oz of each hop:
Citra, comet, simcoe, mosaic, and el dorado.
That makes 10 oz of hops all together. I'm hopping that's enough.
Using that amount, how much should be whirlpooled/steeped vs how much should be dry hopped? Would I want more in whirlpool or more in dry hop or equal amounts?

Thanks everyone for any advice

 

[day_trippr]

I'm not going to read the link before responding, but here's my take, having sampled the neipas that kicked off the whole style and the ones that have moved the needle forward since then (I live in the middle of all of that ).

Screw the flour - please - and excessive grain adjuncts. The neipa isn't about how opaque one can create something and still call it "beer".

It's all about tons of hop compounds, and hop compounds that have been "changed" by yeast. I've been brewing steadily for almost 15 years now and until the neipa style arose nobody ever recommended adding hops to the fermentor 24 hours after pitching ("It's a whole new paradigm!"). And the on-point brews do not even remotely resemble the nasty opaque brews I've been seeing pitched as "neipas".

I brewed 20 gallons of the Julius clone in September, and enjoyed the last of it in the first week of January. It looked pretty much the same throughout. What was causing the haze was still there...big time hop compounds...

Cheers!

 

[Jbrew]

Thank you for the response. So the next questions that leaves me with are:
How much hops would be a good rule of thumb per 5 gallon batch?
What does a hop stand do then? Does the hop stand add the juicyness factor, and the dry hop the haze?
And finally,
Would using a hop spider during the hop stand or using a hop bag during dry hopping have any effect on it?
Thank you again

 

[thehaze]

I have never used a hop spider, nor would I recommend it.

For 5 gallons you need around 20 oz hops, maybe more or less, depending on your taste.

Regarding the hop stand: what I do is end the bopil, quickly cool down the wort to 140-160 F and then add hops. Whether you have a pump or a paddle, you need to create a whirlpool in the kettle and let those hops steep for 15-30 minutes at that low temp. This will add a ton of flavour and almost no bitterness.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

So I read a few posts and this article as well.
http://allaboutbeer.com/article/hazy-ipa/

And How do you keep the haze? Does it drop out eventually if I don't chug thru the keg fast enough?

Man, that's an unhelpful article - no wonder you're confused.

Repeat after me - it's not about the haze. If anything haze is unhelpful, but it's something people put up with as a by-product of the way NEIPAs are made. However the idea has gained currency that somehow the haze is the whole point, and that's just wrong.

So don't even think about adding flour or nonsense like that.

It's not about the haze.

Most of the science that's been done on the good NEIPAs suggests that the haze is a result of interactions between proteins from the grain and polyphenols from the hops - see eg http://scottjanish.com/researching-new-england-ipa-neipa-haze/ for a good review of the evidence on that, and an example of a clearish NEIPA made by trying to avoid those protein-polyphenol interactions.

It's not about the haze.

You might want to have a look through threads such as the main NEIPA thread here, I suspect you'll find most of the answers in there : https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/northeast-style-ipa.568046/ Most people seem to start at about 10g/l hops and go up to 25g/l

Did I mention - it's not about the haze?

 

[Jbrew]

Again, thank you guys very much for the responses. I looked at the recipe as well prior to this thread, but i have not read too deep into yet. Still a couple questions remain.
First, I see in his recipe, his first dry hop wasnt until after 5 days into primary, all my primary ferments usually have wound down by day 3 or 4. I thought we wanted to dry hop at high krausen?

And

I'm still not quite sure how to divide my hops between dry hop and hop stand. Looks like that recipe has equal amounts between flame out, hop stands, and dry hop.
Thank you all again for the help

 

[Braufessor]

Again, thank you guys very much for the responses. I looked at the recipe as well prior to this thread, but i have not read too deep into yet. Still a couple questions remain.
First, I see in his recipe, his first dry hop wasnt until after 5 days into primary, all my primary ferments usually have wound down by day 3 or 4. I thought we wanted to dry hop at high krausen?

And

I'm still not quite sure how to divide my hops between dry hop and hop stand. Looks like that recipe has equal amounts between flame out, hop stands, and dry hop.
Thank you all again for the help

There are a couple "update" links in the first post of that thread. Go to the latest version. I do all my dry hops at day 2-3 now.

For a 6 gallon batch at around 1.060 gravity:
I do 6 ounces in a single flame out after starting to chill the wort.... probably in the 140-160 range
I do 6 ounces in a single dry hop on day 2-3

Plenty of people do more than that, but I find it to be plenty to get what I think is the right about of flavor. It also results in plenty of "haziness."

As stated above - chasing a hazy beer is not the way to go about this. Make a great beer..... it will likely have haziness as a side effect. I am so sick of hearing about adding flour to make beers hazy. Almost nobody does this that makes great NEIPA's. Some people/breweries played around with it early on and everyone (beer bloggers, West Coast IPA Nazi's, Podcasts, etc.) grabbed onto it and talk about it like it is standard operating procedure. It is not.

2 things contribute to the haziness of these beers.....
* There is some yeast component to it - especially with yeasts like 1318 for instance, which does tend to hold in suspsension longer. However, you don't want a yeasty milkshake. But even yeasts like 1056, 1272, etc will result in hazier than normal beers due to the hopping methods.
*Hops - The amount, the varieties (oily hops like citra, mosaic, galaxy, etc.), the timing of the hop additions (when the wort is cooler and early in dry hop) and also likely just the interplay between the hop oils and yeast during fermentation.)

Personally, I think the vast majority of the haziness has to do with the second point - the hops/hopping. I can take my blonde ale, brewed with 1056 and it is clear as glass. However, if I hop it the style of a NE IPA it becomes hazy, and stays hazy for quite some time (although to a lesser degree than a full NE IPA).

I think your plan for 10 ounces of hops is fine. Personally, I would just do 50/50. But, if I was going to break that up, I might go 1/3 to 2/3 with more in the dry hop. I would add all the dry hops on day 2-3. But, if you wanted you could double dry hop it......
1/3 Hopstand
1/3 dry hop on day 2
1/3 dry hop with 3-5 days left in fermentation

Try it one way, and rebrew it with various tweaks.... I have gone to my method because I just never saw much of a difference in any of the more complex methods.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Thank you for the response. So the next questions that leaves me with are:
How much hops would be a good rule of thumb per 5 gallon batch?
What does a hop stand do then? Does the hop stand add the juicyness factor, and the dry hop the haze?
And finally,
Would using a hop spider during the hop stand or using a hop bag during dry hopping have any effect on it?
Thank you again

In a 10 gallon batch I boil 1 oz. Citra for 30 minutes. Then at flameout (from 210F to 170F) whirlpool 2 oz. Amarillo, Cascade, Citra and Simcoe for 45 minutes using a hop spider. Followed by a dry hop of 8 oz. Citra, 2 oz. of Amarillo and Simcoe for 7 days. I add the dry hops about at 4 or 5 days into fermentation, once the airlock activity slows to a bubble every minute or so.

The grain bill is simple 91% US 2-Row and 9% Torrified wheat. The dry hops give the beer its 'juicy' flavor and aromas.

 

[Jbrew]

I appreciate all the help. I too didn't think flour was the right answer. I can agree that its not that I want a hazy beer, i want a good beer that's characterisitc in flavor, mouthfeel, and less bitterness that has become a hazy/neipa.
Im going to be using s04 yeast, do you think that will suffice?
And im planning to probably either split 50/50 or possibly go with a 40/60 split favoring dry hop.
Not to further pick this apart, but I see your recipe has a flame out addition. Do you think the flame out addition is important, or should i just go with the whirlpool?

I see screwybrewer that you add at flame out and just let fall over 45 minutes. Basic brewings last podcast did that as well.

 

[shoreman]

The biggest factor in the haze of NE IPAs is the interaction between yeast and dry hopping with large amounts at various moments post boil (2-3 days into primary helps). There are certain yeasts that work well with these hops to accentuate flavor as well as produce the "haze" you are looking for - Conan, London III, etc.

The second factor can be attributed to adjuncts, specifically Oats & Wheat.

Now here's a pretty shocking yeast situation - this is a mild that I brewed with The Alchemist yeast, Conan (one of the most important yeasts in the NEIPA style). This beer had .50oz of nugget in the boil, was in primary for about 8 days (no dry hops), kegged and added to my keezer for 1 week before I pulled this sample. Clear as day, but no post boil hops, but did have an adjunct added of Flaked rye (1lb in a 4 gallon batch).

My conclusion is that 95% of the haze is produced from the interaction of the yeast with the hops.

 

[cegan09]

The biggest factor in the haze of NE IPAs is the interaction between yeast and dry hopping with large amounts at various moments post boil (2-3 days into primary helps). There are certain yeasts that work well with these hops to accentuate flavor as well as produce the "haze" you are looking for - Conan, London III, etc.

The second factor can be attributed to adjuncts, specifically Oats & Wheat.

Now here's a pretty shocking yeast situation - this is a mild that I brewed with The Alchemist yeast, Conan (one of the most important yeasts in the NEIPA style). This beer had .50oz of nugget in the boil, was in primary for about 8 days (no dry hops), kegged and added to my keezer for 1 week before I pulled this sample. Clear as day, but no post boil hops, but did have an adjunct added of Flaked rye (1lb in a 4 gallon batch).

My conclusion is that 95% of the haze is produced from the interaction of the yeast with the hops.

That's the conclusion that most of us have been at for a long time. It's not from leaving tons of yeast in on purpose, it's not from adding flour or other permanent haze ingredients. It's from the hopping schedules and quantities.

Conan is not some super unfloccing yeast. it drops really clear usually. But the hopping of the alchemist's beers leaves the beer hazy. I've made a bunch of beers with conan that were crystal clear (blondes, english barleywine, pale ales, even porters). It's an interesting yeast to use after a few generations.

 

[Soyben]

As to the haze, from my experience it is actually the the grain. I save second running and freeze it for my yeast starters I have a yeast slurry (5th gen 1318) in my fridge right now that is spot on in color to Bearded Iris Denali Vision. It has never had a hop touch the yeast. I over build the my starters and save about 400 ml for slurry. This goes along with what John Kimmich said in a Q&A with the Music City Brewers in this Chop and Brew episode 22 video. He knows far more than I.



Lots of great info in this, comments about clarity are at the 51 minute mark. Highly recommend the whole video especially the Q&A section which starts around the 30 mark.

 

[shoreman]

Conan is not some super unfloccing yeast. it drops really clear usually. But the hopping of the alchemist's beers leaves the beer hazy. I've made a bunch of beers with conan that were crystal clear (blondes, english barleywine, pale ales, even porters). It's an interesting yeast to use after a few generations.

Its all about the hop interactions with the yeast. I've never put anything in these beers besides oats or wheat and never would.

Yeah Conan is my go to yeast these days for anything outside my Belgian Beers - its a fantastic yeast.

This one above was a third generation. For hoppy beers so far the second generation has been my favorite (throws a lot of peach & apricot) but there could be other factors that as well.

 

[stz]

Everybody has their own take on it. Mine is that haze from greater than normal amounts of yeast in suspension is a flaw. Haze from anything like flour or excessive amounts of adjuncts is a flaw. Haze from hop derived polyphenols, carried across naturally from a light hand with kettle fining and large amounts of late hops (post kettle fining in the boil especially) alongside an unfiltered and unfined product pushed through production quickly to maximise freshness and aroma instead of one with weeks of conditioning time to drop bright is desirable, often found within the style though not always and not essential.

Basically if you make a NEIPA you usually can't use many/any bittering hops because the massive late hops will already give you plenty of IBU's. The essential techniques are often about reducing the bitterness from this late hops, so you can use even more. These will make a beer hazier.

A lot of the yeasts I've used for the style are beasts, fermentation can sometimes be done in 36 hours at 19-21C. Because you need to limit oxygen exposure you add dry hops during the last stages of fermentation to allow the yeast to consume any oxygen introduced. Active fermentation helps keep them in suspension as well. Again advanced techniques are all about dry hopping without introducing oxygen, circulating on the hops, resuspending them with co2 etc. With a 36 hour fermentation the window to add is very small before you seal up and allow the tank to complete fermentation. This is much quicker than a normal process and as such a couple of days warm, a couple of days cold with frequent running off to prevent blockage and then shift to packaging tank to carbonate, condition and package. The beer doesn't have time to drop bright. The beer can age like milk, so you just get it packaged and out the door.

So yeah, for me if you are doing it right that is what causes the haze, not flour in the boil or beer with more yeast in suspension than a starter!

 

[stz]

Its all about the hop interactions with the yeast.

I've got a take on hop interactions with yeast as well and generally it is that they are negative. A lot of people talk about biotransformation in hushed tones and for me unless the strain is known to express a glycosidic enzyme and in sufficient quantities and given enough time at the correct temperature to cleave those bonds it isn't a factor and even when it is it isn't a major factor. You can buy glycosidic enzyme and test this yourself.

Other interactions are basically having your delicious hop oils stick all over their cell walls and then drop out and get dumped down the drain. Overwhelmingly better results if I can ditch the yeast, as much of the yeast as possible first, but always a battle with wanting to dry hop while their is the chance to scavenge oxygen, capture co2 for a head start on carbonation, hop at warm temperature where extract is better and during fermentation so convection keeps them in suspension.

Another factor is just simple volumes. If I put 15g/L in a beer which I've yet to dump 10% of in yeast I've just dry hopped 10% of my beer which is never going to get drunk. Rather dump that portion first!

 

[Jbrew]

A lot of great info here. That chop and brew will be perfect for me to listen to on the ride home from work tonight. Thank you.
So I read the posts, and read them again, but I'm not sure if this has been answered yet.
So what is the haze? Is it protein break? Yeast still stuck in suspension because of hop compounds?
Just hop compounds and oils, A combination of yeast and hop compounds?
Unfortunately, I don't have a local source for obtaining conan yeast, so I'm going to be trying s04, based off the zombie clone recipe where s04 and 1318 both had good results.
I understand and agree that if I try to make a great beer, and not worry about the haze, then it should come out as planned. But without the haze, the flavor and juicyness will change won't it?
I know sierra Nevada's hazy ipa definitely tastes much different if you drink it straight out the can versus pouring it out and letting the sediment on the bottom come out haze the beer. However this is the only canned hazy style ipa I've had. I've had a couple others, from a couple of buffalo region breweries a couple weeks ago, but all on tap, and were fresh.
But the fact that I don't know if its yeast, or hop compounds raises more questions such as
No kettle finings?
No cold crash?
How quickly should I be kegging? 2 weeks?
I was under the impression these were meant to be consumed fresh.

Thanks everyone again, I apologize for constantly adding more questions.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I've got a take on hop interactions with yeast as well and generally it is that they are negative. A lot of people talk about biotransformation in hushed tones and for me unless the strain is known to express a glycosidic enzyme and in sufficient quantities and given enough time at the correct temperature to cleave those bonds it isn't a factor and even when it is it isn't a major factor. You can buy glycosidic enzyme and test this yourself.

Biotransformation certainly can happen - and may involve a lot more than glucosidases. See eg page four of this paper. I've certainly experienced differential biotransformation for myself - a ~6g/l Chinook ~SMaSH split between M36 and T-58 yeasts. M36 was classic bright Chinook grapefruit, the T-58 beer was more subdued and had taken on a distinct lime flavour.

 

[cegan09]

You're over thinking it.

The basic recipe for a good NEIPA is the following:
Pick your favorite base grain, use it.
make about 15-20% of the grain bill flaked grains of some sort, dealers choice.
If you have other specialty grains you like, go for it, but they aren't needed. I like Braufessor's habit of using a little honey malt.

For hops
Limit your boil hops. aim for roughly 35IBU of boil hops, or even less. Some people aren't using any. I think they hold up a little better with some, but that's getting into personal preference.
Use a big whirlpool addition once you're below 170°F
Add another big addition about 24 hours after the fermentation takes off. (it does not need to be excessive. Whoever said 20oz min is way over the mark. If you want to play that high certainly go for it, but you don't need to.)

Move to your keg or bottles once it's fermented out. Try to give it a little time to drop out the stuff that normally gets suspended during fermentation. Some are moving after 7 days, some wait the normal 12-14. Do what you normally do to get a baseline, then play around.

The other big one is limit your oxygen contact post fermentation. For whatever reason these are hugely susceptible to oxidizing. This means that maybe don't cold crash, or cold crash in a way that doesn't let air suck back to happen.

That's the rough guidelines. You're going to find a lot of variables that people swear by. Try them. It's a wide style that can work well with a lot of different details. If you follow the rough guidelines though, you'll have a good beer. Don't seek the haze, seek the soft, hugely flavorful and aromatic aspects of the beer.


A note about the haze itself. It is not yeast. It is not break material stuck there. The best answer that seems to keep being backed up over and over is that it's just an interaction and result of the amount of hops and the time they're added. I have let cans of Heady and Tree House beers sit, unmoved or disturbed for a year, just to see what happens. And yes, some stuff does fall out of suspension after that long, but the beer still pours hazy. The hop character obviously had dropped way off, and it was a more boring beer, but it was still drinkable.

 

[Braufessor]

You're over thinking it.

This^^^^

Most of what you are worrying about is not worth worrying about.

There is no scientific consensus on the "haze" in regard to exact cause. As long as it is not because of globs of yeast, and tons of hop/trub which will make your beer taste like crap.... that is all that matters about the haze.

Just brew it, evaluate it, and rebrew it if you want to try different tweaks or variations.

 

[charger]

This is a from a 10 gallon batch that used 2 pounds of hops total. 1 pound in the whirlpool (8oz at 180 and 8oz at 150) and 1 pound as a dry hop (8oz at high Krause and 8oz for 4 days). Total fermentation time was 9 days before kegging.

The haze immediately appeared during the first whirlpool addition and got hazier with the second. The haze appears to be a product of a crap ton of hops during whirlpool, temps less than boiling but still provide some isomerization for bitterness.

Grain bill is pretty simple, mostly 2 row with some wheat, flakes oats and carapils.

 

[Jbrew]

Wow that's really hazy, actually murky.
You guys are right in that I'm really over thinking it.
Soyben thank you for the chop and brew post. It was interesting to hear John kimmich say dry hop for no less 4 days and no more than 5 days.
And that seems to match the dry hop schedule to your recipe charger and braufessors, and i think that maybe the cause of some of the flavors I don't like that I get in some of my other dry hopped beers that i dry hop and let sit for 2 weeks.

Braufessor I did look at your updates to the recipe and im planning to go with one dry hop charge with 5oz. I also see you say to keep it light. My recipe has a pound of Munich in it, i hope that won't be too much.
Thank you everyone.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Im going to be using s04 yeast, do you think that will suffice?
And im planning to probably either split 50/50 or possibly go with a 40/60 split favoring dry hop.
Not to further pick this apart, but I see your recipe has a flame out addition. Do you think the flame out addition is important, or should i just go with the whirlpool?

I see screwybrewer that you add at flame out and just let fall over 45 minutes. Basic brewings last podcast did that as well.

I ferment mine with WLP-002 @ 65F and never tried using s04 with this recipe. Try it and see how it works out for you.
Flameout additions add just a percentage of IBUs that boiling them will add. But they will add extra flavor and aroma.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Overwhelmingly better results if I can ditch the yeast, as much of the yeast as possible first, but always a battle with wanting to dry hop while their is the chance to scavenge oxygen, capture co2 for a head start on carbonation, hop at warm temperature where extract is better and during fermentation so convection keeps them in suspension.

Interesting take on yeast scavenging oxygen from fermenting beer. Question is if we assume yeast in the aerobic state consume oxygen just prior to starting primary fermentation. Then further assume once all the oxygen is gone yeast go into an anaerobic state to produce Co2 and alcohol. During this time will yeast go back into an aerobic state to consume oxygen again?

 

[stz]

Interesting take on yeast scavenging oxygen from fermenting beer.

Yes. I test for dissolved oxygen and can prove pickup and oxygenation for a whole bunch of different processes. Armed with this information you can set to eliminate the major contributing factors one by one in order of magnitude weighed against ease/cost.

Basically when you go to can and it turns out your beer has a level of 1.4ppm and you need less than 100ppb for a shelf life of up to three months you get on the case. I do shelf life tests and am able to go back with older beers and you can noticeably detect the difference in those packaged with higher DO.

The take home for me is that anybody can make a awesomely hoppy NEIPA, but you've got to know what you are doing to have it still taste like that two weeks later!