What is a Black IPA/CDA exactly?

[Wernerherzog]

So, I'm brewing something for a friend's Haunted House. We settled on trying to do a Black Pumpkin IPA. But, I'm coming into a little confusion researching the Black IPA part of the style. I've had a few Black IPAs (Hop Juice Black), (Stone's 15th Anniversary Ale), but after researching recipes here on HBT I've run across a diverse array of specialty grains. Anything from dehusked carafas, to black patent (the opposite of a dehusked to my mind), to crystals of any calibre of intensity, to chocolate.

Is the style supposed to be an IPA that is colored black with no roast character? Is it supposed to be an IPA with slight roast character but not enough to be considered a porter or stout? Is it just a really bitter porter? There seems to be no clear grounds for distinguishing this style from its two poles. That would make it clear that there could be no grounds for adding a style into the BJCP guidelines.

Can someone either enlighten me or let me know of a good discussion of this topic?

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

There was a fairly indepth article about this in an issue of BYO awhile back. From what they said, it's supposed to be a dark IPA...nothing more. There should be no roasted flavor, only the color. A lot of the commercial examples out there, in my opinion, are way off from style. But...this is seen with just about every commercial example of any style.

There are extracts that will give you the color, if you want to cheat. The real trick is using grains like debittered black malt, midnight wheat, carafa, etc. These grains give you color without the intense roasted/chocolate flavor.

 

[mrgstiffler]

Well, Wernerherzog, I'm really glad you asked!

The Stone 15 is actually exactly what the style should be. LOTS of hops (west coast hops) along with a small amount of roasty malt. The hops shouldn't overpower the roasty malt, but it should be more forward. While not required for the style, the best ones have a smoothness to them that you can get from oats or Belgian Candi Syrup.

 

[Irrenarzt]

Yo stiffler. I had the Hop In The Dark and the Escondidian tonight. The Escondidian is exactly correct. The Deschutes, although a solid beer, wasn't as nice to my palate. A little too malt forward for the hops utilized but a good beer overall. It reminded me more of a higher IBU American Stout, much like a Reprobate Stout but with a better, longer lasting head.

Both are good beers. But Escondidian defines the Black IPA.

Mitch knocked the cover off the ball while it left the park, over the upper deck, landing squarely in the parking lot.

Well done Mitch. Now that's a black IPA!

 

[mrgstiffler]

I'm having the Stone 15 right now actually. Yes, it is damn fantastic. Kind of a toss up between it and Hop in the Dark on which one I like better. The thing I don't understand is how Stone 15 is almost 11%. It really does not taste like that. I'd guess 7% max. I love the color of the head too. It's a really dark reddish brown. Very good beer indeed.

 

[Mongrel]

Both are good beers. But Escondidian defines the Black IPA.

That's like saying Secession defines the Cascadian Dark Ale. Considering the name for the style hasn't been established, no single beer defines it yet (and I hope no beer ever does). The style is young, and every brewery can bring something unique to it, so lets not be in too much of a hurry to limit it with style guidelines. I'm happy as long as it tastes good.

 

[elpenoso]

The thing I don't understand is how Stone 15 is almost 11%. It really does not taste like that. I'd guess 7% max.

Really? This stuff is like syrup while its not "hot" its so damn thick it reminds me of their RIS.

 

[mrgstiffler]

Really? This stuff is like syrup while its not "hot" its so damn thick it reminds me of their RIS.

It does have a full mouthfeel, but it hides the alcohol well.

 

[prrriiide]

While the BJCP has not, AFAIK, defined this style yet, the GABF has. The call it the American-Style Black Ale. The has been quite a bit of push-back from the Pacific NW as to why this was not called a CDA, as that seems to be where it mostly originated. But anyway, here is the style description from the GABF:

62. American–Style Black Ale
American-style Black Ale is perceived to have medium high to high hop bitterness, flavor and aroma with medium-high alcohol content, balanced with a medium body. Fruity, floral and herbal character from hops of all origins may contribute character. The style is further characterized by a moderate degree of caramel malt character and dark roasted malt flavor and aroma. High astringency and high degree of burnt roast malt character should be absent.

• Original Gravity (ºPlato): 1.056-1.075 (14-18.2 ºPlato)
• Apparent Extract/Final Gravity (ºPlato): 1.012-1.018 (3-4.5 ºPlato)
• Alcohol by Weight (Volume): 5-6% (6 -7.5%)
• Bitterness (IBU): 50-70
• Color SRM (EBC): 35+ (70+ EBC)

http://506227.cache1.evolutionhosting.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/11_GABF_Style_Descriptions.pdf

 

[C-Rider]

While the BJCP has not, AFAIK, defined this style yet, the GABF has. The call it the American-Style Black Ale. The has been quite a bit of push-back from the Pacific NW as to why this was not called a CDA, as that seems to be where it mostly originated. But anyway, here is the style description from the GABF:


[/LIST]

http://506227.cache1.evolutionhosting.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/11_GABF_Style_Descriptions.pdf

Those guidelines are confusing to me. How can you have a beer w/o yeast? Some of the catagories say w/or w/o yeast?

 

[Wernerherzog]

Drinking the 15th now. It reeks of hops in a really good way. Pretty delicious. Any tried to do a Pumpkin Cascadian btw? Would it no longer be cascadian if I used british spicy hops instead of American-style west-coast stuff?

 

[prrriiide]

Those guidelines are confusing to me. How can you have a beer w/o yeast? Some of the catagories say w/or w/o yeast?

They are referencing yeast influence on the beer other than fermentation. For example:

1. American-Style Wheat Beer
A. Subcategory: Light American Wheat Ale or Lager without Yeast
This beer can be made using either ale or lager yeast. It can be brewed with 30 to 75 percent wheat malt, and hop rates may be low to medium. Hop characters may be light to moderate in bitterness, flavor and aroma. A fruity-estery aroma and flavor are typical but at low levels however, phenolic, clove-like characteristics should not be perceived. Appearance can be clear or with chill haze, golden to light amber, and the body should be light to medium in character. Diacetyl should not be perceived. Because this style is packaged and served without yeast, no yeast characters should be evident in mouthfeel, flavor, or aroma.

Now, I'm not real sure how you go about packaging and serving a traditionally un-filtered beer without yeast, but my interpretation is that the yeasties do their work then somehow go away.

 

[bovineblitz]

In my opinion there should be a roasty character present but it's fairly light. I like the way it turns out with carafa special.

 

[Scooby_Brew]

My Black IPA has both Special Roast and Carafa II and it's a damn good beer if I may say so myself.
IMO you want some light roastiness in your CDA, but not too much, you don't want it to taste like an over-hoppy Imperial Stout. You don't want to brew just a simple IPA with some black food coloring neither.
BTW, these are just guidelines, you as a brewer want to make the best beer possible and not something that fits perfectly in somebody's category.

 

[doctorRobert]

While the BJCP has not, AFAIK, defined this style yet, the GABF has. The call it the American-Style Black Ale. The has been quite a bit of push-back from the Pacific NW as to why this was not called a CDA, as that seems to be where it mostly originated. But anyway, here is the style description from the GABF:



http://506227.cache1.evolutionhosting.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/11_GABF_Style_Descriptions.pdf

Wasn't the very first one brewed in vermont?

 

[Airborneguy]

Wasn't the very first one brewed in vermont?

Yes, and by one of the most respected and well-educated brewers of the craft beer movement who sadly left us too soon (Greg Noonan). That's why it won't be officially called CDA.

http://www.vermontbrewery.com/about/remembering-greg-noonan

I've changed the recipe every time I brew the black ipa for my wife, but I'm starting to settle into one now. Since I was never really interested in it, it made it harder to really narrow down. I like it now though, so I've been working on it. I like the slight roast character and I keep it around 6% alc. and hop appropriately. The one I have on tap now used Citra hops which are fantastic, IMO and go perfectly with the little roast that's in there. I used .10lbs of black patent if I remember correctly off the top of my head.

 

[beergolf]

In my opinion there should be a roasty character present but it's fairly light. I like the way it turns out with carafa special.

+1. I agree with this. Instead of Carafa I use Debittered Black, but they are pretty similar. Gives a slight roast flavor and a very dark almost black color.

 

[biochemedic]

When I did my one experiment with this "style," I used Carafa III because I couldn't get the color dark enough (by the numbers) to match the "guidelines" with the II. I also used a small amount of chocolate malt and roasted barley...probably was to roasty for many people, but I liked it....

 

[jtakacs]

In my opinion there should be a roasty character present but it's fairly light. I like the way it turns out with carafa special.

i did a CDA not too long ago that came out fantastic... it has a bit of carafa special, some roasted and crystal... imo, it should have the body and hop character of an IPA with a little roast character as well - getting the roast character to balance with the hops is tricky imo - i did mostly large late hop additions (used C hops) and fermented half with US-05.

has perfectly red highlights in it as well - probably one of my favorite styles right now - i split the batch and fermented some with belgian yeast as well - the hops really hide the belgian character and next time i'll try it with abbey II yeast and see what happens.

 

[BrewThruYou]

IMO you want some light roastiness in your CDA, but not too much, you don't want it to taste like an over-hoppy Imperial Stout. You don't want to brew just a simple IPA with some black food coloring neither.

I agree with this. There should be some roastiness there.

 

[JKoravos]

It's whatever you want it to be. Commercial examples range from AIPA with carafa special to RIS/American Stout.

 

[elpenoso]

Im going to be doing another one of these soon, getting blackness out with just the right roast is the trick.
I have used carafa2 in the mash for 60 as well last 20 of the mash. My results were too roasty and not roasty enough. So this time Im going to cold steep the carafa2 overnight in cold water.

What would be the best way to go about this? As in how much water to use. I have .75lbs of carafa2 or 5.3% of total. Has anyone done this method and can offer some advice?

 

[jtakacs]

i wouldn't go beyond what you're going to mash with volume-wise - maybe 1.2 q/lb...? i like the idea of the overnight cold soak, but i'm wondering if it'll get more bitter and less roasty?

keep us posted - i'll be brewing my CDA again sometime soon - one of my current favorite beers.

 

[mrgstiffler]

Yo stiffler. I had the Hop In The Dark and the Escondidian tonight. The Escondidian is exactly correct. The Deschutes, although a solid beer, wasn't as nice to my palate. A little too malt forward for the hops utilized but a good beer overall. It reminded me more of a higher IBU American Stout, much like a Reprobate Stout but with a better, longer lasting head.

Both are good beers. But Escondidian defines the Black IPA.

Mitch knocked the cover off the ball while it left the park, over the upper deck, landing squarely in the parking lot.

Well done Mitch. Now that's a black IPA!

You know, that's really interesting. I've had them both many times but never side by side before until now. Hop in the Dark is actually significantly more hop forward to me. But not as bitter. Stone 15 is more smooth and creamy though. They're both damn good and I can't decide which is better.

 

[bovineblitz]

IMO you want some light roastiness in your CDA, but not too much, you don't want it to taste like Stone 15th Anniversary

Fixed it for you