What am I doing wrong? Weird smell/taste.

[JesseM]

Hey guys!

Long time lurker, first-time poster.

I'll try to keep this short (EDIT: Well, I tried!):

I brewed all-grain rauchbier with my friend around three years ago with a very little knowledge. Against all the odds the beer turned out fantastic. We used 10l kettle, so the batch size was small.

We updated our equipment for bigger batches. We installed a heating element in our plastic fermenter which we use to boil. Seems to work well... anyway, after switching to "new" equipment all the four batches have been bad. I know one of these were due to high mash temps. Two of these should've been fine. Mashing went well, around 152-160 temps.
Still trying to make good rauchbier, similar to the first batch. We've used liquid yeast and currently dried SAFLAGER W34/70. I've pitched when the wort has cooled to around 59.

Smell and taste have both been great at first. But while fermenting something weird happens. It's this very same smell/taste that takes over the beer. It's super hard to explain what it is... but from my nose and my wife's nose these words came up: Ash, Bandage, Leather, Plastic, Rubber. It really takes over the beer, and it seems even time won't heal it.

I'd blame fermentation temps, but then again our first batch turned out great even though it was using lager yeast in room temps (I know, how is that even possible!). I know I should be measuring liquid temp instead of ambient, but the ambient was around 60. Fermentation has been fierce, so it's quite possible the temp of actual wort went way up and produced those off flavors? Or perhaps it is some sort of infection? I'll switch to StarSan with my next patch to make sure it's not that.

I'm also suspecting that something might happen while boiling. Maybe it boils too aggressive? Maybe the heater element burns something while boiling...?

I also checked, our water is 7-8 pH and has 0,3 - 0,4 mg/l chlorine.
BUT then again, the first batch turned out great. Same water.

Oh, to my nose the off-flavor(s) starts to come alive while fermenting!

I really need to narrow down what is causing the off flavors so I know what I'm doing wrong.

I'm considering going back to smaller batch, using a small fridge to control the temps and mash using the kettle in an oven. I'd also get a new fermentation vessel.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated, it pains me to toss batch after batch down the drain.

Cheers and thanks!

Jesse

 

[ancientmariner52]

Hello, Jesse. I think, if I were in your situation, I would first try to duplicate your original batch, using the original recipe, equipment and methods. If it turns out good, as it probably will, you will have proven that the problem lies in your new equipment.

Next, I would brew again, using everything new except your plastic boil kettle. You may have to boil in several small batches. It's just a gut feeling, but the flavors you describe sound like overheated plastic to me. Hope this helps, good luck to you.

 

[JesseM]

Hi ancientmariner52,

Thank you for your reply!

I think something coming off from the plastic boil kettle is plausible and would explain the taste. It's probably the only thing in common with those batches went wrong. That, and the way of mashing, but I highly suspect it's that.

I will go back to smaller batch size, that way I can use metallic kettle instead of plastic for boiling, and I can also mash in the oven.
I also think if I should buy 10 liters of spring water and use it instead of tap water, any thoughts about that?

I'd be happy to hear more thoughts about this, potential issues, etc.

Thanks again,

Jesse

 

[Horseflesh]

If you aren't using something like Campden tablets to knock out chlorine, I'd start.

 

[JesseM]

I can't find those tablets here in Finland. However, with the next smaller batch I'll try using spring water, that should eliminate the possible problem with too much chlorine.

Oh, going slightly off topic, but could use help with this as well:
I've got this small fridge, I did some testing, and the temperature range is between 28-47. The yeast I'm using (W34/70) should work between 50-70. Fermentation is a chemical reaction that generates heat, right?

If I pitch the yeast when the temperature is around 55, and place the bucket in the fridge that is 47, do you think it would work out?
I can't make the fridge any warmer. However, if the fermentation starts rather fast, then I think 47 would be pretty ideal even?

Thanks, guys, really friendly folks here at the forums!

 

[brew703]

Is the plastic bucket you are using food grade? Either way I would suspect it's the plastic causing the problems. I personally never boiled in a plastic bucket and would not consider that as an option.

 

[JesseM]

Is the plastic bucket you are using food grade? Either way I would suspect it's the plastic causing the problems. I personally never boiled in a plastic bucket and would not consider that as an option.

It's food grade, and to my understanding, it should be PP (polypropylene) and should be fine for higher temps. However, I wouldn't be surprised if this is what's going wrong. I won't be using it for my next batch!

 

[UncleAvis]

Are you getting your brewing water through a garden hose? Regular hoses can give a nasty rubber flavor.

 

[micraftbeer]

Hey guys!

... We installed a heating element in our plastic fermenter which we use to boil. ...

Jesse

I at first thought I surely must've read this wrong, but I saw in your replies that in fact that you are boiling in a plastic vessel. A quick internet search showed that although PP has a melting temperature above boiling, they reference a max. continuous use temperature of 80C. So maybe it doesn't drip down into a pool of molten plastic, but you are probably messing with the chemical structure during that boil, and by the sounds of your beer tasting, pulling out chemicals into your wort.

I'd recommend tossing the plastic fermentor (probably no good as a fermentor any more either), and get a stainless steel kitchen pot. It sounds like you have a movable/electric heating element, so rather than go all the way back to your small batch equipment, you can change this one variable and see if your chemical beer taste goes away.

 

[JesseM]

Thanks, guys, some great replies!

@UncleAvis I'm using tap water, straight out of a tap.

@micraftbeer That might very well be true. It would explain pretty much everything and that weird taste that's super hard to tell what it is.
I can't say for sure, but I think I've tasted the wort before yeast goes in. It tastes good... or was it before boil? Darn!

I also think that the smell when fermentation starts has been pleasant, but then it turns to that weirdness at some point.

If it was because of the plastic boiling vessel, wouldn't it taste/smell right after boiling? Hard to say.

That is the best guess, for now, maybe tap water being the second?
For my next small batch, I'll be using stainless steel kitchen pot, spring water, and better temp control.
It must be one of these things...!

 

[Drewed]

Plastic/Bandaid is usually from Chlorine, Wild yeast, or some type of infection. This would hold with your observation that the wort tastes fine and it goes wonky when fermenting.

 

[RM-MN]

Wild guess time!! Your first batch was fine because your water supplier was using chlorine to disinfect and it outgassed and was gone before your beer was boiled. They probably switched over to using chloromine for protecting your water. The water would taste the same but chloramine stays in the water. That's good for protecting the water supply but terrible for brewing beer. Your spring water should not contain chloramine and will be better for brewing.

Campden tablets do remove both chlorine and chloramine. In your country they may be available but sold under a different name. A little searching will probably show you where to get them.

 

[micraftbeer]

...

I also think that the smell when fermentation starts has been pleasant, but then it turns to that weirdness at some point.

If it was because of the plastic boiling vessel, wouldn't it taste/smell right after boiling? Hard to say.

...

Remember that fermentation is a chemical reaction, it's not just the combining of "yeast flavor" + "wort flavor" = "beer flavor". It's the same way some of the above-mentioned off flavors come into your beer. So you could extract certain chemical compounds during your boiling in plastic phase, that then get combined with various molecules created during the fermentation process.

All the above things other posters are saying could be true. But the glaring difference here from any homebrew process I've heard of is boiling in plastic for an hour. So I'd start with the most glaring difference and go from there.

 

[dmtaylor]

Chlorophenol.

Get the chlorine out of your water and process, and you'll never have the problem again. Campden helps. I use it. Or use spring water as others suggested.

I don't think it's from the plastic kettle, but I could be wrong.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Ditch the plastic anyway - even if you determine it's chlorine. The extractables/leachables you're getting from the plastic (despite being food grade) can't possibly be good - even if you can't taste direct evidence.

 

[JesseM]

Thanks for all the replies!

It seems the plastic boiler is to blame, that'd make sense. The taste/smell is so weird; I could imagine it coming from the plastic boiler vessel. Chlorophenol as @dmtaylor suggested, could be another explanation. I'll be tossing out my old gear just to make sure and will use spring water, and stainless steel kitchen pot to boil. Fingers crossed...!

Once I brew again soon, and the fermentation has finished I'll be sure to report back. This is the point where the smell always comes alive, so if it stays away I think I'm good.

 

[JesseM]

Hey guys!

I did brew again, had OG of 1.090, a bit too high, though I do love strong beer.

Right, so instead of using that plastic boiler I used kitchen pot. I didn't use bottled water, as I contacted local water service and they said there is no chloramine in the water. So, the weird taste was very likely coming from the plastic boiler.

Anyway, it's been fermenting, and should be finished soon. I took the first reading just a moment ago, and the gravity is now 1.025, which may very well be FG as I brewed high temps for a sweet body.

Drumroll here...!
So once I opened the fermenter bucket for the first time after adding the yeast, I took a good smell... promising! Can't detect that weird smell from my previous batches.

I took the reading as I mentioned, and after that cooled my sample down and tasted: Whooaaaaaa!
It tasted amazing, just as it is supposed to. I mean, it's not super good yet, but I do know how it evolves from there and it was great. That weird horrible taste is totally gone.

Conclusion: I'm almost 100% sure the plastic boiler vessel was to blame. Something came off from the bucket during long boils... That was stupid, ruined many batches.

Anyway, I bet this beer turns out fantastic. Can't wait to brew more!

Thank you again for all the help,

Jesse

 

[micraftbeer]

Good to hear you solved your problem. And doubly good you came back to the forum and gave the update so future folks would know if they came across this thread.

 

[dmtaylor]

Wonderful news. I guess we shouldn't boil in plastic!

 

[JesseM]

Wonderful news. I guess we shouldn't boil in plastic!

Sarcasm, detected! And rightfully so.