Well, that ain't good. Anyone else having problems with copper turning brew water blue-green?

[rdavidw]

Just moved to a new house with hard well water. Got a water softener and a RO filter, which has been working spatially. Other then the new water, my equipment and process is the same as my old house that was on city water. With my old water I needed to add about 12ml of 25% acid to hit a 5.2 Ph. With the new water I need to add 28.5ml of 25% acid to hit my Ph. On my first brew at the new place I noticed some blue-green sediment in the bottom of the kettle. I washed it out but some of it got in my wort. It seems to have gotten worse and on my last brew (have done 7 batches in the new house) the brew water came out very blue green. I dumped out that sparge water and heated fresh water in my kettle without the copper coil and it remained clear. The water in my MT was still in contact with the inside of the copper coil and I would guess it's just as contaminated. Don't know what the copper levels in my finished beer is going to be. Will some of it fall out in the fermenter? Wondering if I should dump all 35 gallons?
https://ww2.health.wa.gov.au/Articles/A_E/Copper-in-drinking-water

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I have a non-traditional three kettle HERMS set-up with two pumps and a single induction burner. My BK starts as the HLT until I sparge. I start by heating all of my strike and sparge water in my BK/HLT that has a built in 1/2" copper coil. As the water is heating I add calcium, Burton's water salts and acid to hit my Ph. I then pump the strike water to the MT and run a regular HERMS set up. After heating the MT to my mash out temp, I pump the sparge water to the HLT that has no coil or burner. It only takes a few min to pump over. After the sparge I clean my MT and move the HLT next to the BK and fill it with ice blocks. I then pump the ice water in the HLT though the same coil built into the BK to chill the wort very quickly. Works great and less to clean with only one coil. Here are some photos of my setup: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/new-home-basement-bar.663517/

My best guess is that the added acid in the new water is adhering to and corroding the copper coil. I am going to replace the copper coil with stainless steel. I made the copper one but will buy a stainless one.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

 

[MrHadack]

With my old water I needed to add about 12ml of 25% acid to hit a 5.2 Ph. With the new water I need to add 28.5ml of 25% acid to hit my Ph

My best guess is that the added acid in the new water is adhering to and corroding the copper coil.

Unless I'm misreading this, it seems from your first statement that your new well water is LESS acidic than your previous water because you're adding more acid to get it to the same pH. Also, it doesn't matter how much acid you're adding if the end result is 5.2 pH in both cases-- by definition that's the same acidity. I suspect there is something else present in the water causing this issue, and I have a theory as to what it might be.

A few weeks ago, I filled my plate chiller (copper) with B-Brite solution and let it sit for a while to loosen up any junk inside so I could flush it out. When I did so, the water that came out was very blue-green in color. I had no idea why. I did some research and found when B-Brite mixes with water it reacts to form hydrogen peroxide, which is how it cleans and removes residue. Hydrogen peroxide in contact with copper will also cause a reaction in the form of a blue-green precipitate! So that's what happened in my case.

Since you have copper present when you see the blue-green water, my guess is there's something similar happening. I am not suggesting B-Brite is the source, however. You may not even use it, and even so, when rinsed it would be far too diluted to cause what you're seeing. Instead, I'm suggesting there is possibly another source of hydrogen peroxide causing this.

You said you are now on well water, so I research hydrogen peroxide and well water to see what I could find. After some reading, I found something very interesting: someone using well water who installed a water softener in their home suddenly started having issues with blue-green water! But it would only happen in certain conditions-- where copper fixtures were present.

Looking up water softeners, I found that some of them have components that use... hydrogen peroxide.

My theory, which is easy enough to test, is that perhaps your water softener is the cause. First, let's check the type / model of your water softener and see if it has a hydrogen peroxide component. Second, if there is a way for you to bypass the water softener, you could try using water straight from the well and see if you get the green water problem again. That would help rules things out as well.

 

[rdavidw]

Unless I'm misreading this, it seems from your first statement that your new well water is LESS acidic than your previous water because you're adding more acid to get it to the same pH. Also, it doesn't matter how much acid you're adding if the end result is 5.2 pH in both cases-- by definition that's the same acidity. I suspect there is something else present in the water causing this issue, and I have a theory as to what it might be.

A few weeks ago, I filled my plate chiller (copper) with B-Brite solution and let it sit for a while to loosen up any junk inside so I could flush it out. When I did so, the water that came out was very blue-green in color. I had no idea why. I did some research and found when B-Brite mixes with water it reacts to form hydrogen peroxide, which is how it cleans and removes residue. Hydrogen peroxide in contact with copper will also cause a reaction in the form of a blue-green precipitate! So that's what happened in my case.

Since you have copper present when you see the blue-green water, my guess is there's something similar happening. I am not suggesting B-Brite is the source, however. You may not even use it, and even so, when rinsed it would be far too diluted to cause what you're seeing. Instead, I'm suggesting there is possibly another source of hydrogen peroxide causing this.

You said you are now on well water, so I research hydrogen peroxide and well water to see what I could find. After some reading, I found something very interesting: someone using well water who installed a water softener in their home suddenly started having issues with blue-green water! But it would only happen in certain conditions-- where copper fixtures were present.

Looking up water softeners, I found that some of them have components that use... hydrogen peroxide.

My theory, which is easy enough to test, is that perhaps your water softener is the cause. First, let's check the type / model of your water softener and see if it has a hydrogen peroxide component. Second, if there is a way for you to bypass the water softener, you could try using water straight from the well and see if you get the green water problem again. That would help rules things out as well.

Wow MrHadack! Very helpful!

You are correct that my well water is more base then my old water. I also agree that water that has been well mixed with more of the 25% acid solution is the same as water that has been well mixed with less 25% acid if they both end up at a Ph of 5.2. My speculation, is that when adding the concentrated acid solution directly to the kettle with the copper coil in it, the copper is more base then the surrounding water and that the acid would adhere to the copper before being fully diluted in the water. Just a guess.

I took some of my OR water and put it in a glass and then added some of the 25% acid. No blue color. I waited a few hours and then added some pennies and then got the same blue color. I will do it the other way around when I get home and let you know how that goes. Water and pennies first and then wait and add the acid.

I have been using the same cleaner for a few years now: Five Star PBW https://www.morebeer.com/products/pbw-cleaner-1-lb.html

My water softener is a Fleck head from 602ABCWater: https://602abcwater.com/collections...oducts/abcwaters-fleck-5600sxt-water-softener My understanding is that it just has a resin that absorbs hard minerals. The brine tank is only used to flush out and recharge that resin periodically.

I also have a RO filter behind the water softener that runs a line to my kettle as well as for my drinking water and reef tank. That has some carbon blocks, two membranes run in parallel and UV sterilizer. That setup was on my old house as well but I did add an extra 20 gallon expansion tank.

I will fill four gasses of water, two with the water directly from the well and two from after the softener and RO filter. I will then put some pennies in two of them and the acid in the other two (one from each type of water). I will wait a while and then add the pennies and acid to the other two.

In any event, I am going to replace my copper coil with stainless. I have gotten some stainless coils for my fermenters from these guys and they came out great. http://stainlessbrewing.3dcartstore...s-25-x-12-x-035-OD-Tubing-304304L-_p_256.html

Thank you so much for your help with this.

 

[MrHadack]

I will fill four gasses of water, two with the water directly from the well and two from after the softener and RO filter. I will then put some pennies in two of them and the acid in the other two (one from each type of water). I will wait a while and then add the pennies and acid to the other two.

Seems like a sound procedure! I'm definitely interested in hearing about the results.

 

[mcl]

So you run your brewing water through your softener and then through your RO system? If so I wouldn't think you would need much acid to get an acceptable mash ph and not more than your old house without an RO system. What are you using to test your mash ph?

I would replace the copper coil as well.

 

[doug293cz]

It's not clear from what you wrote if you are adjusting mash pH to 5.2 or the water pH to 5.2 - which is it? You want the mash pH to be your target, not the water. I also am puzzled by why RO water is "requiring" more acid for adjustment. Have you measured the TDS on your RO water?

Brew on

 

[ESBrewer]

The green-blue thing is definitely a sign of copper ions in solution. It is probably caused by copper oxide that dissolves from the surface of the wort chiller. Pure copper itself is fairly inert unless you have some unwanted oxidizing acid/substance(maybe some cleaning agent) in your system. But the oxides that may form on the surface of copper over time will readily dissolve in acidic environment. To avoid these compounds getting into the beer, you could clean the coil before you brew. This can be done by submerging it briefly in StarSan or mild acetic acid (vinegar solution) and rinsing with water. For more see this .

 

[Csspecs]

Any chance you have a bad PH reading and your adding too much acid? Also using pennies for copper analogs, be sure to use ones from before 1981, pennies made from 1982 on are mostly zinc and will react differently.

 

[rdavidw]

So you run your brewing water through your softener and then through your RO system? If so I wouldn't think you would need much acid to get an acceptable mash ph and not more than your old house without an RO system. What are you using to test your mash ph?

I would replace the copper coil as well.

Yes, I run most all of my brews through my RO system (some dark beers I would just use tap, but have only used RO water in the new house). Had been using this RO system at my old house as well, but with city water as the source. I added the water softener to the well water in the new house.

I use a pHep Hanna meter. Calibrated it about ten months ago, should do it again.

 

[rdavidw]

It's not clear from what you wrote if you are adjusting mash pH to 5.2 or the water pH to 5.2 - which is it? You want the mash pH to be your target, not the water. I also am puzzled by why RO water is "requiring" more acid for adjustment. Have you measured the TDS on your RO water?

Brew on

I use Phosphoric 25% acid to get my strike & sparge water to close to 5.2 pH. I then add about 3.5% of acidulated malt by weight of my total grain bill, less for dark beers, to my gains. I test the mash pH and make notes for next batch if I am over or under.

Smart question on the TDS of the RO water. My old house would hold around 2 PPM. I changed all of the filters at the new house and started with a PPM up in the 120 range. Came down to 25 or so for a while and then jumped back up to the same ppm as my tap water, about 160 ppm. The check valve on my zero waste brine return to the hot water line busted and hot tap water was pouring in. I replaced the check valve and flow restrictions (I run two membranes in parallel to improve production rate for a big reef tank). My PPM is now around 8 and slowly falling lower. I tested the TDS in the kettle in the batch in the above photo, prior to heating and it came in at 18 ppm.

I have two hand held TDS meters and a built in TDS meter that reads each of the two ro membrane outputs so those numbers should be good.

 

[rdavidw]

Any chance you have a bad PH reading and your adding too much acid? Also using pennies for copper analogs, be sure to use ones from before 1981, pennies made from 1982 on are mostly zinc and will react differently.

I have some pH calibration fluid but its about ten months old. My Hanna meter tested spot on back then. I will pick up some new calibration fluid.

Drats! I did not check the dates on the pennies. I have some in the test jars now, hopefully some are pre-1981. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[rdavidw]

The green-blue thing is definitely a sign of copper ions in solution. It is probably caused by copper oxide that dissolves from the surface of the wort chiller. Pure copper itself is fairly inert unless you have some unwanted oxidizing acid/substance(maybe some cleaning agent) in your system. But the oxides that may form on the surface of copper over time will readily dissolve in acidic environment. To avoid these compounds getting into the beer, you could clean the coil before you brew. This can be done by submerging it briefly in StarSan or mild acetic acid (vinegar solution) and rinsing with water. For more see this .

Very helpful! Thank you.

I am going to shut down the brewery till I get the copper coil replaced with stainless. In my HERMS brew process, the wort hits both sides of the same single coil. In the past, I would pump five star PBW though the whole system after each brew (Unless I was going to brew again in the next day or two). I have used StarSan on copper before but it has not been part of my regular brewing process.

I have not had problems with copper in the past and find the superior temp transfer over stainless noticeable. I have stainless coils in my fermenters due to the extended contact time. I use a copper coil on my glyco setup for my yeast starter cooler but that sits in a water bath.

Does anyone know if the copper ions in solution will substantially dissipate during fermentation?

 

[rdavidw]

Sorry for the late update.

Did the experiment with four glasses of water and pennys. None of them turned blue at any point. Pennys may have been mostly the newer ones.
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Boiled water in my kettle with the copper coil with no additives. Water was after softener but before RO filter. Water turned a very slight blue. Drained the water and when the copper coil dried it turned a very nasty purple color.

Replaced my 1/2" 20' copper coil with a 1/2" 25' stainless coil from Zach at https://stainlessbrewing.3dcartstor...s-25-x-12-x-035-OD-Tubing-304304L-_p_256.html. I had him make me a pair of stainless coils for my fermenters. Those and this one all came out perfect, I would definitely recommend them.

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I have not calibrated my Hann pH meter in almost a year. I just moved and have not brewed for a while. My calibration fluid expired but I tired it anyway and it seemed to be way off. The meter was reading the 4.01 fluid as 7.01 and the 7.01 fluid as 10.01. Nice work Csspecs! I think you nailed it! I ordered a new probe head and new calibration fluid.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Hi guys - a comment on all this: RO water should not be in contact with any metal parts, other than stainless. RO water will, for instance, corrode through copper pipe. RO water is very aggressive.

Russ

 

[rdavidw]

Hi guys - a comment on all this: RO water should not be in contact with any metal parts, other than stainless. RO water will, for instance, corrode through copper pipe. RO water is very aggressive.

Russ

Thanks for the heads up Russ. Very helpful.

 

[rdavidw]

Got my new pH meter head and calibration fluid. The old head was way off. At my old house, I needed to add 0.8 ml of 25% acid per gallon to hit my pH target of 5.3. After testing my water at my new house with the bad pH meter, I was adding 3.1 ml of 25% acid per gallon. With the new water and the corrected pH meter, I am back to almost exactly the same as the old house, at 0.82 ml.

I suspect it was a combination of the way to acidic water and ro water that caused to copper to heavily leach into the brew water. With the corrected pH meter and the new stainless coil I am back up. First brew is looking and smelling great.

Thanks for everyone's help with this.

Cheers!

 

[ESBrewer]

That could certainly explain the behavior, it sounds that you were marinating the coil with hot acid so the conditions were rather untypical for brewing.

 

[rdavidw]

That could certainly explain the behavior, it sounds that you were marinating the coil with hot acid so the conditions were rather untypical for brewing.

Agreed, I would sometime mix up the RO water and additives including the acid in the kettle the day before brewing. Compounding the problem is that I was using RO water. Shortly after adding the RO water I would add Burton water salts and calcium so it may have been less of an issue after those were added.