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Schwimbody

Schwimbody

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Hey guys,

Finished first brew day yesterday. Kolsch recipe, Got to about 5.5gal and put in a 6.5 gal glass carboy, stirred it up with the drill attached to the paddle method and then pitched the yeast around 76 degrees White Labs WLP029 Kolsch. Thought with two small frozen water bottles, then added two more, that I'd reach the lower temps, nope. Woke this morning (12 hours later) to a calm lake of great looking brew in the fermenter and no activity. This morning the water in the tub surrounding the carboy was around 73 degrees. Went to get ice and dumped enough lower to 60 deg.

I have a dry yeast packet in the fridge remaining, wondering if the volume and lager quantity needs more yeast rather than just one package of WLP029. Any suggestions? It's Easter of course so NOTHING is open here in the South. Can you oxygenate it (if I had a system) once the yeast is in the fermenter? Is it too late? Am I panicking unnecessarily? The carboy and plastic tub filled with water surrounding it is under my stairs in a house with ambient temps around 74 (we're low blood pressure people). Figured the tub with ice under the stairs would be my best bet in Texas. Thanks for any advice.
 
Yes you are panicking unnecessarily. With one package you probably underpitched and it is way too early to get worried. Some say do nothing for as long as 72 hours. I would say 2 full days for sure.

If you are at 60 degrees now you are slowing things down even more. Let it warm up a little.

From White Labs: " it performs exceptionally well at temperatures ranging from 65° to 69°F (18-20°C) and does not ferment well below 62°F (17°C) after peak fermentation."
 
Prior to getting my fermentation chamber set up, I used a swamp cooler set-up and kept it in the dark corner of our pantry. It worked great. I was changing out frozen water bottles about three times a day (summers in Florida), but I could maintain a fermentation chamber that kept the contents of the bucket in the mid-60's. The important part is to maintain consistency and try to hit a goal fermentation temperature.

I have had White Labs yeast take well over 24 hours to start kicking...so I think as long as your brewing process was sound, you'll be fine. Give it time, and resist the urge to potentially infect a batch by trying to re-oxygenate. If there's no activity after a couple of more days, you could repitch with the dry yeast. Just my two cents.
 
All right cool. I will add a bit more room temp water to bring the temp to the mid 60s and maintain. Love this forum. This is my first brew ever and I had two other helpers which made the process a breeze. We did hit a hiccup with cooling and were starting to panic about how to lower the temp. We did something ingenious imho...we used a large cardboard box and filled it with one of my camping tarps and filled with with water and dumped ice in it and stirred like mad to lower the temp from 210 to 77 when I pitched the yeast. We all looked at each other after the mad 20 minute stir session while lowering temps with an ice bath outdoors and said, never again, copper coil is the way forward. I have a question...we have a 16gal pot (I thought ahead of time that we'd start brewing 10gal batches at a time to split a good amount of beer amongst the 3 of us and have enough to give away (if it's worth giving :)). Will a 50ft coil be enough to rapid cool the wort in a ten gal batch in my 16 gal kettle?
 
Schwimbody said:
All right cool. I will add a bit more room temp water to bring the temp to the mid 60s and maintain. Love this forum. This is my first brew ever and I had two other helpers which made the process a breeze. We did hit a hiccup with cooling and were starting to panic about how to lower the temp. We did something ingenious imho...we used a large cardboard box and filled it with one of my camping tarps and filled with with water and dumped ice in it and stirred like mad to lower the temp from 210 to 77 when I pitched the yeast. We all looked at each other after the mad 20 minute stir session while lowering temps with an ice bath outdoors and said, never again, copper coil is the way forward. I have a question...we have a 16gal pot (I thought ahead of time that we'd start brewing 10gal batches at a time to split a good amount of beer amongst the 3 of us and have enough to give away (if it's worth giving :)). Will a 50ft coil be enough to rapid cool the wort in a ten gal batch in my 16 gal kettle?
Click to expand...

Cooling with an immersion chiller is much dependent on the temperature of the water going through it. Here in the summer, tap water is sometimes near 90 degrees so cooling to mid sixties is impossible. If money is no object, the JaDeD Hydra gets great reviews. And you can run chilled water through an immersion chiller.

Advice - get something to move the wort around while chilling. It takes much longer with the IC just sitting in the wort. You need to move the chilled wort away from the coil so that warmer wort from the center of the pot can get cooled.
 
Relax dude!
How much do you think the monks fretted over THEIR beer? Probably a lot!
The did all that fretting so you wouldn’t have to!
This is a lifelong learning process.
And, like the rest of us homebrewers, you are obviously a glutton for punishment!
Just remember, NOBODY ever learned anything without screwing up.

Hoppy Easter!
 
Just walk away from the fermenter for another day or two. Come back and see what your yeast is doing. If no visible signs then take a sample and see what the gravity is.. I’ve had plenty of fermentations that showed almost no activity but hit or exceeded their numbers.
 
I agree with the folks above that say it's too early to get panicked, but I know the feeling!

My personal experience with 029 has been that it started slow. I brewed with a near expiration date package last summer and it took about 36hours to see just the very initial signs that something was going on in the fermenter. The repitches were also a bit sluggish compared to other strains I've used. Bumping up the temperature to the mid 60s should help out.
 
Well funny thing happened...I lowered the temp down to 60 and then up to 66 and voila! Fermentation has begun. Already a ring around the rim and spots within the surface indicating activity! Now, I'm excited. Does anyone know what size frozen plastic bottles will keep tap water cooled down to 65 while fermenting? I've read other posts a couple of weeks ago but can't find them.
 
Total newb. Any suggestions to remedy either today or in the future? I was relying on my local brew shop for guidance but with the covid 19 bs I didn't want to bug with all my questions. Could or should I have made a starter?
 
Could have made a starter. Could have pitched a second package of yeast. I wouldn't worry about this particular brew.
In the future? Perhaps make a starter or buy additional yeast. It never hurts to keep a pack of dry yeast on hand for such an occasion. I don't make starters since I brew in 1-4G batches, but I repitch slurry ( the yeast cake after it settles out after fermentation) 3-4 times before starting fresh again. The repitches tend to take off within 12 hours in my experience ( 029 being my exception). I think if you kept half of that particular yeast cake, you'd have more than enough cells for another 5G brew. That's just sort of my anecdotal experience though and others with far more know-how can give you better advice on that.
 
You just underpitched and had a long lag phase. Always a starter especially if you’re not aerating with a stone and pure O2. And even then you still should.

Pitching at 76 was probably a good thing actually as you’d get better growth at that temp then at 60.

I’d leave it, see how it turns out. If it’s fermenting no real sense in adding more yeast. I take it you have some K-97?
 
Ok so how about a suggested temp to keep it at during fermentation. Went out and bought a Weber iGrill thermometer and an app to keep an eye on the fermentation water surrounding. its around 60 right now. I could warm it up a bit but it seems fermentation is occurring. Can you post a link to the stone and O2 kit if one exists or the pieces so I can order and have for the next batch. I loved doing this yesterday as did my buddies. Can't wait to see how this turns out. On another note, should this baby do its thing should I double ferment to clarify a bit more? I figure, what, 2 weeks for the initial fermentation??? Then, what, another week in an additional to clarify or another two weeks?
 
Another question, does underpitching just mean you'll wait longer for fermentation to begin and will it never be enough to reach your beer's potential. I swear I'm going to write the Idiot's Guide to Brewing when this is all done. I won't leave anything out unless that guide has already been written and will answer every stinking question I have as they come up in my head.
 
Folks started making beer around a gazillion years. I think it was a Tuesday, close to lunch time.

Believe it or not, if you wanted to add a dead, well aged rooster to your wort, feathers and all, you would find that it’s already been done.
 
Schwimbody said:
Ok so how about a suggested temp to keep it at during fermentation. Went out and bought a Weber iGrill thermometer and an app to keep an eye on the fermentation water surrounding. its around 60 right now. I could warm it up a bit but it seems fermentation is occurring.
Click to expand...

Looked back in my log last year when I made a Kolsch. I kept that yeast at 67, so it probably fluctuated between 66-68.

Schwimbody said:
On another note, should this baby do its thing should I double ferment to clarify a bit more? I figure, what, 2 weeks for the initial fermentation??? Then, what, another week in an additional to clarify or another two weeks?
Click to expand...

Most folks frown upon using secondary fermenters. Increases the chance of other flavor issues. I ferment for 3 weeks because it works out better for my personal schedule, then bottle carb 2 weeks. Get em cold, and enjoy. I seem to recall this stuff dropping clear fairly quickly, though. But I didn't note it down...


Schwimbody said:
Another question, does underpitching just mean you'll wait longer for fermentation to begin and will it never be enough to reach your beer's potential. I swear I'm going to write the Idiot's Guide to Brewing when this is all done. I won't leave anything out unless that guide has already been written and will answer every stinking question I have as they come up in my head.
Click to expand...

Everyone has loads of questions at some point. It's how folks learn.

Even under pitching, the yeast cells will multiply and eat the sugars down to its FG. And it starts slower, as you've noticed.


Glad to hear you enjoyed your first brew! It really is a trip, and easy to fall deeply into. Check out the local library for a couple brewing books. I got a copy of How to Brew from there by Palmer, and eventually purchased my own copy along with some others.
 
With wlp029 I’d raise the temp to 64-66, especially if you did underpitch. That Kolsch yeast is better in the mid 60s where 2565 or 1007 might be better in the high 50s.

I think I made 10 batches of “Kolsch” in 2019. There’s a great Craft Beer and Brewing article and podcast with Matthew Steinberg from Exhibit A brewing in MA on Kolsch production. He makes one of the more highly regarded US versions. I’ve never had one in Cologne and pretty much any Kolsch that actually arrives here in the US probably doesn’t taste at all like it does in fresh in Cologne.

Anyways Exhibit A uses WLp029 for their Kolsch. Check out that article. One key to making a great crisp clean Kolsch is how you condition it.

Chuckanut in WA makes maybe the most awarded Kolsch in the US. They use a proprietary strain but ferment it in the mid 60s. They also have a specific conditioning schedule as well. There are some podcasts with the owner where they vaguely discuss it. Never had the beer, hopefully one day.
 
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Was about to post something similar to this lol... I accidentally pitched my WLP029 on Friday morning and forgot to change my temp control and came back Saturday morning to find my wort at 45 degrees! I immediately turned up my temp to 60 degrees and still no activity ):

But by the looks from all the suggestions, optimal fermentation temp is ~65 degrees? I guess I'll just have to turn it up even more and cross my fingers.
 
Schwimbody said:
Ok so how about a suggested temp to keep it at during fermentation. Went out and bought a Weber iGrill thermometer and an app to keep an eye on the fermentation water surrounding. its around 60 right now. I could warm it up a bit but it seems fermentation is occurring. Can you post a link to the stone and O2 kit if one exists or the pieces so I can order and have for the next batch. I loved doing this yesterday as did my buddies. Can't wait to see how this turns out. On another note, should this baby do its thing should I double ferment to clarify a bit more? I figure, what, 2 weeks for the initial fermentation??? Then, what, another week in an additional to clarify or another two weeks?
Click to expand...

See my reply - #7 for the temperature range. That came from White Labs, the producers of that yeast. Shoot for mid range.
 
Get yourself a 2000ml erlymeyer flask (Pyrex or karter scientific) from amazon or eBay and a stir plate and make starters using simple light dme and 1000ml of distilled water.

stirplate and brewers best make some cheap entry level ones or you can score some used scientific lab grade models if you look...

the one in the left is a stirplate model that is cheap and works fine. The other two are lab grade and work very well but I keep them on timers of 30 on 1.5 hr off because they also produce slight amount of heat..

these three starters are using yeast that is over two years old (see my thread on them). As you can see all are being brought back from the dead and are very healthy...
2CCEA524-E51F-4CCB-A547-64D05AB30CAF.jpeg
 
In regards to your question about the frozen bottles, from my limited understanding of science, bigger bottles (liter bottles, etc.) does not mean more efficient as it relates to dropping the temp in your swamp cooler. I freeze several small plastic water bottles and switch them out once they melt. It is a constant switch out, which will eventually convince you to build/invest in a fermentation chamber, chilling and/or heating system. Several will also probably agree that once they started controlling the fermentation temperature with a chamber or whatnot, their brewing quality also improved.

Glad to see that your fermentation is underway!
 
Wednesday morning and the activity has died down in the carboy. Should I be concerned? It was nice and active for a couple of days but has relented. There is still foam on top. Is that a normal schedule for fermentation?
 
Schwimbody said:
Wednesday morning and the activity has died down in the carboy. Should I be concerned? It was nice and active for a couple of days but has relented. There is still foam on top. Is that a normal schedule for fermentation?
Click to expand...

Your primary has just crashed after a few days of full on fermentation. This is normal.

Now for me, I immediately go to a secondary, which is a smaller carboy (5 gallon) and then fill that to within a few inches of the top, up into the neck. That would be called secondary fermentation. Many here will tell you not to do that for various reasons but I am a firm believer in it because it allows the beer to settle out and I get a lot less sediment. So you will have to figure out in the future whether or not you want to do that. Do some research and see what you think. Some will tell you that it could lead to oxidation but I have never had any issue with that in over 30 years time. So that decision will have to be left up to you. As I said, do your research and then figure out if it is right for you. You might try it on a future batch or you might just decide to never do it. Your decision. I always go to secondary on the same day that I see the head crash on primary....

Either way things are going just fine for you. Don't worry. The yeast just ran out of food. It is telling you that.
 
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Immocles said:
Most folks frown upon using secondary fermenters.
Click to expand...

As I said, here is that advice not to do a secondary....

I don't agree with that advice. I actually recommend secondary but I may be in the minority on this. The reason I do recommend it is that I have made many great beers using secondary and have gotten rave reviews on my beer. A batch that I did this year was an Old Peculiar clone recipe and I got comments like "You should bottle and sell this".... We drained an entire 5 gallon keg of it in just 3 hours.

But I head to secondary on the same day as the primary crashes and make sure to leave only a small amount of air in the neck of the 5 gallon carboy. That is important because it is any air that might cause oxidation. Also the beer should still be releasing CO2 at that point in time so any air in the secondary should get purged out. I have never had any issue with oxidation or off flavors at all. Just saying....

If you were interested in doing a secondary then you need a racking cane and a siphon starter of some sort. All equipment has to be sanitized properly before the transfer. Go do some research. It's not hard to do but the first time it might be a little intimidating. So you may want to skip it this time around or you may just choose to never do it and that is your decision to make.
 
coonmanx said:
As I said, here is that advice not to do a secondary....

I don't agree with that advice. I actually recommend secondary but I may be in the minority on this. The reason I do recommend it is that I have made many great beers using secondary and have gotten rave reviews on my beer. A batch that I did this year was an Old Peculiar clone recipe and I got comments like "You should bottle and sell this".... We drained an entire 5 gallon keg of it in just 3 hours.

But I head to secondary on the same day as the primary crashes and make sure to leave only a small amount of air in the neck of the 5 gallon carboy. That is important because it is any air that might cause oxidation. Also the beer should still be releasing CO2 at that point in time so any air in the secondary should get purged out. I have never had any issue with oxidation or off flavors at all. Just saying....

If you were interested in doing a secondary then you need a racking cane and a siphon starter of some sort. All equipment has to be sanitized properly before the transfer. Go do some research. It's not hard to do but the first time it might be a little intimidating. So you may want to skip it this time around or you may just choose to never do it and that is your decision to make.
Click to expand...

Myself and a friend started brewing at the same time. I was gifted the basic starter set while he bought a step up that included a secondary. I always let mine ride out 2-3 weeks, and he racked after 2 weeks. Brewing the same kits on occasion, his generally turned out a little darker, a little different on the flavor, but he admittedly played a bit fast and loose with process and sanitation. I'm not necessarily saying its a guarantee to ruin a beer, but it is an extra step that can indeed cause issues, especially with just starting out. I think once a good process is found, one should stick with it. Sounds like you found a good process.
 
Schwimbody said:
Wednesday morning and the activity has died down in the carboy. Should I be concerned? It was nice and active for a couple of days but has relented. There is still foam on top. Is that a normal schedule for fermentation?
Click to expand...

Actual active fermentation can be pretty quick. It's common for it to be in the 2-4 day range. The yeast still does a lot of cleaning up afterwards, though. It is tough to be patient with the first few brews, but let the yeast do its thing.


coonmanx said:
Your primary has just crashed after a few days of full on fermentation. This is normal.

Now for me, I immediately go to a secondary, which is a smaller carboy (5 gallon) and then fill that to within a few inches of the top, up into the neck. That would be called secondary fermentation. Many here will tell you not to do that for various reasons but I am a firm believer in it because it allows the beer to settle out and I get a lot less sediment. So you will have to figure out in the future whether or not you want to do that. Do some research and see what you think. Some will tell you that it could lead to oxidation but I have never had any issue with that in over 30 years time. So that decision will have to be left up to you. As I said, do your research and then figure out if it is right for you. You might try it on a future batch or you might just decide to never do it. Your decision. I always go to secondary on the same day that I see the head crash on primary....

Either way things are going just fine for you. Don't worry. The yeast just ran out of food. It is telling you that.
Click to expand...

I missed this post before I made my own above. That sounds like a really clever time to do the racking to secondary, actually. Do you often still get a bit of a yeast cake on the bottom of the second carboy?
 

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