Weird taste... first all grain recipes

[LogicBomb]

So I just kegged two of my first all-grain batches. I was very excited until I tasted them... it just tasted "off". It's hard to describe.

It's bitter but not too bitter, but that could just be the hops. Almost an astringent/tannin flavor on the aftertaste. Not all that pleasant. Almost grainy - like an unfermented wort taste, without the sweetness.

My temps during the mash never went over 150 (strike water was around 166 on both batches).

My batch sparge water was heated to about 170 on the first batch and 180 on the second and added for about 5-10 minutes before draining.

Fermentation temps never went about 68f ambient.

I used campden on both batches to eliminate chloramines...

The off flavor is much worse on the SNPA clone of the two beers but it's the same bad taste.

All my volumes were nearly bang-on. There's only a few things I can think of:

1. I kegged this batch after just about 1.5 - 2 weeks. My gravity readings were bang on and apparently these recipes were designed to be quick-turnaround so I went with it. Maybe it's still very green?

2. I used Amarillo hops, which I've never used before since they were out of Cascade... no clue if maybe I just don't like the taste of this hop?

First recipe was a take on edwort's haus ale:

2.2 lbs vienna malt
0.55 lbs crystal 40
8.8 lbs pale 2-row
Amarillo - 1oz/0.5/0.25/0.25 @ 60/30/15/5 min
Nottingham yeast
mash @ 150 for 60

Second was a take on BierMuncher's SNPA clone Nierra Sevada (that I reversed the bittering/aroma hops on, oops):

10 lbs 2-row
0.55 lbs crystal 60
0.55 lbs cara-pils
1oz amarillo @ 60
0.5/0.5/0.5 northern brewer @ 15/10/5 min
Safale us-05
mash @ 150 for 60 min

Obviously the recipes aren't 1:1 from the sources I took them from due to ingredient availability and minor tweaking for my purposes and such but...

Anyone have any clues?

I took detailed notes on both recipes if there's anything I didn't include above that would help...

 

[iglehart]

I had a similiar issue. After kegging, I let them sit a few weeks, drained the first glass which was yeasty. Then my beer was clear and tasted much better.

Not sure if this is your issue, but time helped mine.

 

[DLR1987]

So I just kegged two of my first all-grain batches. I was very excited until I tasted them... it just tasted "off". It's hard to describe.

It's bitter but not too bitter, but that could just be the hops. Almost an astringent/tannin flavor on the aftertaste. Not all that pleasant. Almost grainy - like an unfermented wort taste, without the sweetness.

My temps during the mash never went over 150 (strike water was around 166 on both batches).

My batch sparge water was heated to about 170 on the first batch and 180 on the second and added for about 5-10 minutes before draining.

Fermentation temps never went about 68f ambient.

I used campden on both batches to eliminate chloramines...

The off flavor is much worse on the SNPA clone of the two beers but it's the same bad taste.

All my volumes were nearly bang-on. There's only a few things I can think of:

1. I kegged this batch after just about 1.5 - 2 weeks. My gravity readings were bang on and apparently these recipes were designed to be quick-turnaround so I went with it. Maybe it's still very green?

2. I used Amarillo hops, which I've never used before since they were out of Cascade... no clue if maybe I just don't like the taste of this hop?

First recipe was a take on edwort's haus ale:

2.2 lbs vienna malt
0.55 lbs crystal 40
8.8 lbs pale 2-row
Amarillo - 1oz/0.5/0.25/0.25 @ 60/30/15/5 min
Nottingham yeast
mash @ 150 for 60

Second was a take on BierMuncher's SNPA clone Nierra Sevada (that I reversed the bittering/aroma hops on, oops):

10 lbs 2-row
0.55 lbs crystal 60
0.55 lbs cara-pils
1oz amarillo @ 60
0.5/0.5/0.5 northern brewer @ 15/10/5 min
Safale us-05
mash @ 150 for 60 min

Obviously the recipes aren't 1:1 from the sources I took them from due to ingredient availability and minor tweaking for my purposes and such but...

Anyone have any clues?

I took detailed notes on both recipes if there's anything I didn't include above that would help...

Possibly too high of a sparging temp. You could be extracting tannins at 180 during the sparge. Is it astringent? If so, it could be your mash ph. Do you know how your water is?



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[Yooper]

I'm fairly certain that it is mash pH and not Sparge temperature that is responsible for the astringency.

Those lighter colored beer recipes tend to need some acid in the strike water in order to hit a proper mash pH. Instringency would indicate that the mash pH was too high.


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[DLR1987]

I'm fairly certain that it is mash pH and not Sparge temperature that is responsible for the astringency.

Those lighter colored beer recipes tend to need some acid in the strike water in order to hit a proper mash pH. Instringency would indicate that the mash pH was too high.


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This. Yooper knows all!


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[BetterBeerThroughDrinking]

When we started with all grain I thought milling the piss out of the malt would increase our efficiency. Pulverizing the malt husk ended up causing a great tannic presence in the final product to the point where we were dumping beer. Just a thought. Not sure how you are milling the grain, but could be a source.

 

[MattGuk]

I always used to get this same problem, until i actually bothered checking mash PH, and i was shocked that my mash ph was usually way above 6.
Now i use CRS to treat my waters alkalinity and add a touch of citric acid during the mash to get it bang, hey presto now more astringency

 

[mtnagel]

So how long has it been in the keg? I've only kegged two beers, but both times it's taken a good solid 2-3 weeks before they both started getting better. Both were pretty terrible at 1 week, better by 2 weeks, great by 3 - 4 weeks where the one batch stayed consistently good for a few months.

 

[cjgenever]

Ph or over sparging. 180° sparge water is pushing it.

Slight tannins will mellow with time, but shouldn't be there to begin with.

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[BigFloyd]

If your ambient temps were anywhere near 68*F, you ought to use something other than Nottingham. Once it hits 68*F beer temp (up to 8-10*F higher than ambient) during active fermentation, it starts to kick off some yucky off-flavors.

Look into using some lactic acid or acid malt for your lighter beers.

When double batch sparging, your first batch sparge should be the hot one to get the grain bed up to 168. Depending on your volumes, that may require first sparge water up around 200*F. The second sparge should be with 168*F water since the grain bed is already at that temp.

 

[RM-MN]

I'm fairly certain that it is mash pH and not Sparge temperature that is responsible for the astringency.

Those lighter colored beer recipes tend to need some acid in the strike water in order to hit a proper mash pH. Instringency would indicate that the mash pH was too high.


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It could be a combination. If the mash pH is too high but the mash temp is low you shouldn't get much tannin extraction but when you sparge, the addition of the sparge water should normally raise the pH and this coupled with high sparge temps could extract tannins. When you do a second sparge, that should drive the pH even higher and the hotter water added to an already hotter than mash temp grain bed definitely could extract tannins. For your next batch, try adding a little acid to the mash and only do a single sparge. Since you are doing a batch sparge you don't need mash out so use cooler water for the sparge and consider acidifying that water a bit too. I'll bet your problem goes away.

 

[Yooper]

Even if the mash temp is low, if the pH is over 5.6- 5.7 astringency could be a huge problem. If the pH is even higher than that it would be an even worse problem.


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[LogicBomb]

UPDATE:

So I don't know what happened. It must have been either REALLY young beer, or what people call "carbonation bite" because just 2 days later both of the beers are INFINITELY more drinkable.

After a few more tastes from the "bad beer" after posting I had decided it was certainly almost plastic tasting. Maybe what people call band aids? It was a really hard taste to "pin down".

After hours of trying to figure it out, it just kind of dissipated and went away... In fact the Haus ale I just drank was goddamn delicious.

So I guess all my fretting was for nothing... which makes my first two all-grain brews a very positive experience

This scare did bring me a lot of knowledge I was missing though - like the concept of mash PH, which I will pay more attention to in the future.

Thanks everyone. Hopefully someone finds this thread in the future with the same issue and listens to the old addage of "RDWHAHB"

 

[mtnagel]

The last beer I kegged (Zombie Dust clone), I tried after 1 week in the keg. Pretty bad. Not very bitter, undercarbed, just not good. I have about 2 oz of beer in my 10 ft beer lines, so a week later I poured off about 2 oz and again, not very good. I then pulled a few more ounces and it was infinitely better. Better carbonation, getting more bitter as expected and not the citrus juice taste. I'm expecting the next pour in about a week to be even better.

So even with kegging patience is key. I see so many people force carbing and drinking right away or using a carb cap to drink some right away and I just don't get it. With bottling I always waited at least 2-3 weeks and the beer was always a little better even later than that (4-6 weeks later). It just takes some time for the flavors to come together.

 

[mgortel]

Those lighter colored beer recipes tend to need some acid in the strike water in order to hit a proper mash pH. Instringency would indicate that the mash pH was too high.

Ditto to this.....very possibly your problem.

You should get a water test report....or use distilled water and make adjustments to water if needed.

Check out "Bruin Water" website for excellent information on brewing water and a spreadsheet to make adjustments.

I had similar when I started all-grain...mash pH was my issue and some folks on this site pointed me in the right direction which was pH issues during mash.

 

[bd2xu]

Just another +1 on mash ph. I have about 15 all grain batches under my belt now and am running a brutus 10 with keggles. Have had good and ok beers, but astringency has been an issue in a couple and lately, last 3 batches, my mash efficiency has dropped from about 72 to like 60, resulting in missing my OG by a significant amount (last IPA was 5.5% vs 6.5, different beer).

My LHBS suggested 5.2 buffer. Used it on last batch, Friday I brewed a Pliny The Elder clone and WHAM, mash eff right back up and overall eff 84.7. Solved.

Another thing, which I think is related to ph and/or sparge temp is watching that your final runnings don't drop below 1.010 or about 2.5 brix. Using a refractometer makes this a LOT easier. Once below this you are adding tannins to your wort.