water softener vs water filter vs ???

[Scout]

The water softener in my house is old as dirt. It an old one that operates on a timer, and occasionally leaks. I'm thinking its time for a replacement, but as I don't like running out of salt I'm wondering if I should consider a whole house filter instead, or something else. I live in the country, on well water, and next to a farm field. Anything I google trying to find info on one vs the other results in some website trying to sell me something, and I don't want to read biased info. I figure since many of the people here are into water profiles, filtration, RO systems, etc, that this would be a good place to get info.
I don't have a water profile yet, but generally speaking, how much salt does a modern softener use? What are the advantages of filters vs softeners? Would it be usable for brewing, or should I go to the store for RO water? (Or just buy a small RO system?) What about salt free softeners?

 

[NSMikeD]

The advantage of RO. (I use RODI since I have a saltwater reef aquarium) is that many can attach an inexpensive meter so you always know you have a clean slate to start with and thus no guess work. Also you know when to change the filters. With hard water sources, best if you add a pre filter chamber to lengthen the life of the more expensive filters. One downside is teh produce a of waste water - totally drinkable and creative folks figure out how to use that instead of letting it run down the washer machine. My unit from Bulk Reef Supply is very easy to use (clear screw top chambers) and ran about $150. However for about 6 years I used a cheap (under $100) portable unit that I would hook up to my kitchen sink and buy TDS meter confirmed it was making 0 TDS water. Both units made 5 gallons of water in a little over an hour. Having your own file res a huge plus over lugging water home.

I cant speak for water softeners - which you may want for other reasons, but I suspect knowing what your starting water profile is would be a guessing game. You would be reducing calcium and magnesium but you would also be adding salt to the water. I would go crazy trying to figure out what the key levels of minerals would be for brewing.

Water conditioners don't use salt but I still think you end up in the boat not knowing what the levels brewing salts remains.

I guess one option is a water conditioner for your house to soften the daily water and an RO unit ( or buying RO or distilled if you don't mind lugging containers) for brewing.

I suppose you can get a water conditioner and then have the water tested to get a basic idea of what's in the conditioned water. Or just brew a lot of Guiness clones.

 

[IslandLizard]

Maybe Russ (@Buckeye_Hydro) can help out here.

Does all your well water get filtered, hence a multistage filter and a timer for (nightly) backwashing?

Or is only your drinking/shower water filtered?
A water softener (using salt) in a pre-stage generally makes an RO filter down the line last longer, and work more efficiently, by just filtering out the salt, not the harder minerals.

 

[day_trippr]

^Right^. I urge the OP to obtain a detailed water report on the raw well water as the first step so money isn't wasted on inappropriate or ineffectual "solutions".
If the well water is hard enough it can shorten the life of a reverse-osmosis membrane, and the existence of a softener suggests that might be in the cards...

Cheers!

 

[mac_1103]

If the well water is hard enough it can shorten the life of a reverse-osmosis membrane, and the existence of a softener suggests that might be in the cards...

The existence of a softener certainly suggests that the OP's well water is hard enough to need a softener.

 

[day_trippr]

It certainly could indicate a need, but unless the existing system was installed by the OP on a rational basis I'd get the water tested and not assume anything

Cheers!

 

[Sammy86]

The water softener in my house is old as dirt. It an old one that operates on a timer, and occasionally leaks. I'm thinking its time for a replacement, but as I don't like running out of salt I'm wondering if I should consider a whole house filter instead, or something else. I live in the country, on well water, and next to a farm field. Anything I google trying to find info on one vs the other results in some website trying to sell me something, and I don't want to read biased info. I figure since many of the people here are into water profiles, filtration, RO systems, etc, that this would be a good place to get info.
I don't have a water profile yet, but generally speaking, how much salt does a modern softener use? What are the advantages of filters vs softeners? Would it be usable for brewing, or should I go to the store for RO water? (Or just buy a small RO system?) What about salt free softeners?

I'm no plumber just some random homebrewer on the internet but my well guy and plumber who inspected my new house all said the same thing before doing anything was test the water to see the baseline.

My well water here in CT is EXTREMELY hard...avg of 3 years of tests is 258 ppm. We have a sediment filter from the well to the house, then it hits the softener and then an RO system for drinking/brewing in the kitchen.

If you have hard water (which by your original softener) would indicate you need one so I would look into replacing it. Your pipes and water dispensing things will thank you later.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

You said your water softener leaks... that means it is in need of maintenance and likely a rebuild if it is old.

You said regeneration of your softener is triggered by a timer... Geez. Either it is really a cheap low end valve, or it is old as dirt as you mentioned - or both. This is an old-fashioned and very inefficient way to control a softener.

You said your softener is old - did you know the resin inside the softener needs to be replaced periodically? Has it ever been replaced?

Did you know there is periodic maintenance that is needed for the softener valve and the brine tank (garbage can looking bin where yu dump the salt pellets)?

Does your well water also contain iron? Manganese? If so... how much? Here's a way to find out: Drinking Water Test - Buckeye Hydro

Have you tested your softened water to see if it is actually soft?

Softeners in general, remove Ca++ and Mg++ ions (which are the primary components of "hardness") and add (typically) Na+ in place of Ca and Mg. That's why we call the resin inside a softener an "ion exchange resin." It captures some ions and releases others. Sodium does not form scale like Ca and Mg.

If you're interested in help with your existing softener, or in replacing it, feel free to give us a call at 513-312-2343. Yes - we are working today (Saturday)

It would be interesting to see a picture of your existing softener valve (the electrical device atop the softening tank). Do you know the make/model of your softener?

Russ

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

As to your question regarding use of a filter(s) vs a softener.

Softeners REMOVE hardness. If you have excessive hardness, you really can't beat a softener - no other "conditioner" or magic magnetic wizbang can do what a softener does. To know if a softener is needed, as mentioned above, you need to have a lab analysis of your well water. In the water treatment biz we can treat just about any contaminant if we know what it is, and its concentration (typically expressed as ppb, ppm, or mg/l).

Filters on the other hand do not soften (remove hardness from) you water. You could use a sediment filter to remove UNdissolved solids like sand/silt/clay/rust chunks, but sediment filters do nothing to remove dissolved contaminants like Ca, Mg, Fe, Mn, etc. Water that runs through a sediment filter will contain the same dissolved contaminants (e.g., hardness) it did before the sediment filter. An exception to this is that you can sometimes get a little of certain contaminants to come out of solution and clog the surface of the filter. But that's a very expensive, labor intensive, and PITA way to get a little of that job done.

The other most common cartridge filter is a carbon filter. There are some things that carbon will do for you, but again, if hardness is your target, a carbon cartridge filter is really not your solution.

Russ

 

[hottpeper13]

Time for mine to get replaced also and it regens on a usage basis so not as old as yours.
I've been looking at the citric acid replaceable cartridges that need no regen. They state that it removes alkalinity and cleans scale.
Also need iron remover replaced and want to go to filters that need no regen. Any recommendations?

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Time for mine to get replaced also and it regens on a usage basis so not as old as yours.
I've been looking at the citric acid replaceable cartridges that need no regen. They state that it removes alkalinity and cleans scale.
Also need iron remover replaced and want to go to filters that need no regen. Any recommendations?

Are you talking about a whole-house application, or a point of use sort of thing?

 

[hottpeper13]

Whole house. From what I've read(mostly from the mfg) It's what they mandate in places with water shortages like AR.NM,NV.
Regen units not only waste water the cost of running that pump is high.
Another question is, can I then use this water for brewing instead of using RO?

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Hmm. What is the pH of the treated water? Do you have copper pipes? Brass plumbing fixtures?

 

[hottpeper13]

I think it's around 7.8, some copper,still some galvanized, only my brew sink has a brass faucet.
What do those have to do with whether the citric acid cartridges ,and iron filters will work?

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

I think it's around 7.8, some copper,still some galvanized, only my brew sink has a brass faucet.
What do those have to do with whether the citric acid cartridges ,and iron filters will work?

I'm wondering what the post acid-treatment pH will be. If it's low enough to attack existing scale, is it low enough to attack other things?

 

[Scout]

The advantage of RO. (I use RODI since I have a saltwater reef aquarium) is that many can attach an inexpensive meter so you always know you have a clean slate to start with and thus no guess work. Also you know when to change the filters. With hard water sources, best if you add a pre filter chamber to lengthen the life of the more expensive filters. One downside is teh produce a of waste water - totally drinkable and creative folks figure out how to use that instead of letting it run down the washer machine.

I've seen people add a second membrane, using it to filter the waste from the other membrane, and increasing output while decreasing waste.

Does all your well water get filtered, hence a multistage filter and a timer for (nightly) backwashing?

Or is only your drinking/shower water filtered?
A water softener (using salt) in a pre-stage generally makes an RO filter down the line last longer, and work more efficiently, by just filtering out the salt, not the harder minerals.

There's no filter, just the softener. I have a carbon filter at the kitchen sink and another in the garage where I brew. Yes, all the water that comes in gets softened.

You said your water softener leaks... that means it is in need of maintenance and likely a rebuild if it is old.

It says "Americana" on the front, but nothing comes up when I google it. It leaks at the bypass valve if I try to bypass it. Even then, I still get the occasional drip. The current plan is to plumb in a bypass.

You said regeneration of your softener is triggered by a timer... Geez. Either it is really a cheap low end valve, or it is old as dirt as you mentioned - or both. This is an old-fashioned and very inefficient way to control a softener.

You said your softener is old - did you know the resin inside the softener needs to be replaced periodically? Has it ever been replaced?

This is my first time I've used/owned a softener. We've been in the house 4 or 5 years now, and all I've done is put salt in when it gets low or runs out.

Did you know there is periodic maintenance that is needed for the softener valve and the brine tank (garbage can looking bin where yu dump the salt pellets)?

Does your well water also contain iron? Manganese? If so... how much? Here's a way to find out: Drinking Water Test - Buckeye Hydro

Have you tested your softened water to see if it is actually soft?

First softener, no i dea they required maintenance other than adding salt.
I don't know whats in the water. I think the guys that drilled the new well tested it to make sure it was safe, but I know nothing beyond that.
I was going to have the water tested at Ward Labs, but that has been put aside several times. I really don't know how hard the water is.

Softeners in general, remove Ca++ and Mg++ ions (which are the primary components of "hardness") and add (typically) Na+ in place of Ca and Mg. That's why we call the resin inside a softener an "ion exchange resin." It captures some ions and releases others. Sodium does not form scale like Ca and Mg.

If you're interested in help with your existing softener, or in replacing it, feel free to give us a call at 513-312-2343. Yes - we are working today (Saturday)

It would be interesting to see a picture of your existing softener valve (the electrical device atop the softening tank). Do you know the make/model of your softener?

Russ

It says "Americana" on the front, and the back has a sticker that says Americana water treatment, Churubusco, IN. I'll post some pictures here tonight or tomorrow. Front back, sides?

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

You can plumb a second membrane in series, BUT only if your water is soft or softened. There is a popular vendor that sells to marine aquarium folks who has convinced them a second "water saver" membrane is suitable for everyone. It's not, but most buyers don't know that.

We can do a video call with you if you'd like.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Americana is likely a brand name for the water treatment company that originally sold it to the homeowner - ie., they just put their sticker on it. That is not a brand name of a softener valve.

 

[Scout]

You can plumb a second membrane in series, BUT only if your water is soft or softened. There is a popular vendor that sells to marine aquarium folks who has convinced them a second "water saver" membrane is suitable for everyone. It's not, but most buyers don't know that.

We can do a video call with you if you'd like.

Thats interesting, when is it not suitable?
Im in the wishful thinking phase right now. Ive got other things that need my money first.

Here's some pictures, front side top and back, plus one of the space its in.

 

[NSMikeD]

Thats interesting, when is it not suitable?
Im in the wishful thinking phase right now. Ive got other things that need my money first.

Here's some pictures, front side top and back, plus one of the space its in.

Depends on how hard you water is. I am not aware of marine vendors that push extra filters. Most (including Bulk Reef Supply who has decent systems that are easy to service ) sell different packages. Keep in mind that stony coral (reef) tanks owners need 0 TDS (using RODI filters) and go through a lot of water (due to topping off due to evaporation and weekly water changes ) and these expensive corals are very sensitive to water chemistry.

I have relatively soft water, my meter tell me that my tap is about 25ppms TDS and the pre filters will bring that down to under 5 ppm(and often 1-2 TDS) before it gets to the DI filter which cleans that up to 0 TDS.

You can start without and extra pre filter (a TDS meter is cheap and reality to install right into the system) and see when your filtered water creeps up signifying time for new filter. If that happens before a year, then it probably makes sense to add a pre filter chamber (expanding filer chambers is plug and play with the quick connect fittings) so your RO lasts longer.

Did I mention getting the in line meter with a unit? It takes the guessing out of the process.

 

[NSMikeD]

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-4-stage-ro-only-system-75gpd-2.html

this is the 4 stage RO unit (no DI) which should be fine for brewing. If you absolutely want a clean slate with your brew water (0 TDS) then it's only $3 more - they swap one of the pre filters for the DI filter. The $30 meter accessory. I find is sufficient. This is the 75 gallon per day unit. GPD drives the price. It tales a little more than an hour to make 5 gallons.

My first unit was from what is now aquatic life. It was about $75. Did the job well. Just a lot more work to change filters and no option to visual for checking of just one filter needed to change so I would swap all out once a year when the TDS started to get about 2 ppm. The plumbing hardware on the BRS unit and its physical set up is also more convenient.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Thats interesting, when is it not suitable?
Im in the wishful thinking phase right now. Ive got other things that need my money first.

Here's some pictures, front side top and back, plus one of the space its in.

Plumbing membranes in series (waste from first going to inlet of the second) is how most commercial RO's are plumb. However, commercial RO system have a requirement for 0 Hardness in the feedwater. You'll shorten the second membrane life (because you'll fill it with scale) if you have hardness in the water. Can you get away with it if you have just a little hardness? Probably. Should you use that configuration if you have no idea what your hardness is, or if you have hard feed water? No.

Your softener has an old Fleck 5600 timeclock electromechanical valve. Looks like it is leaking quite a bit from the mineral deposits around the valve. That valve is still manufactured. We can email you the manual if you'd like. A replacement bypass for your valve is also still available. Rebuild kits are available as well if you're up for that. This is not a valve we recommend to customers for use on a softener. These were used on softeners way back when. Your valve is something that is still used on backwashing filter tanks (like a carbon tank). You want what's called a "metered valve" instead. A metered valve regenerates the softener based upon the volume of water you've pushed through it, rather than a set period of time.

I'm not a big fan of Fleck brand valves in general. They work just fine when they are new, but are a pain in the neck when it comes time for maintenance. Especially when you compare them to the other major Made in the USA valve (Clack brand). There's other valve brands made in the USA, and imported valves available as well. Our favorite for applications like yours is Clack.

Russ

 

[Scout]

Would it be possible (and budget friendly) to retrofit a new valve and replace the media, or would I be better off just buying a new system? I know, I need to have my water tested first, but generally, which would be better?

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Well, if you were an experienced water softener tech, you could take a close look at your system and see if any other parts need to be replaced (my guess is that there are). For a DIY approach, and considering the age of all the components, and that every component is out of warranty, and that troubleshooting would not be easy for you, it would be better to start clean with a new system. We could get you just a replacement (metered) valve and yes - that would be cheaper. Would it be easier? No.

To get the brand of valve I'm recommending to you you'd have to get a whole new system as well.

 

[day_trippr]

Are Fleck and Clack mechanically interchangeable? Even assuming the heads will fits existing tanks I'd think it'd be a miracle if the ends of their respective bypass valves ended up at exactly the same places in XYZ space to fit up with existing plumbing. But I could just be a pessimist...

Cheers!

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

The threads on the tanks are standard (2.5"). From there, everything on the two are different.

 

[Scout]

Well, if you were an experienced water softener tech, you could take a close look at your system and see if any other parts need to be replaced (my guess is that there are). For a DIY approach, and considering the age of all the components, and that every component is out of warranty, and that troubleshooting would not be easy for you, it would be better to start clean with a new system. We could get you just a replacement (metered) valve and yes - that would be cheaper. Would it be easier? No.

To get the brand of valve I'm recommending to you you'd have to get a whole new system as well.

I figured it would probably be cheaper and easier to just buy a new system if I'm going to replace everything but the tank

Are Fleck and Clack mechanically interchangeable? Even assuming the heads will fits existing tanks I'd think it'd be a miracle if the ends of their respective bypass valves ended up at exactly the same places in XYZ space to fit up with existing plumbing. But I could just be a pessimist...

Cheers!

That would be surprising. I'm not scared of a little plumbing, though.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'd start by getting a full test of your well water, pre softener to see exactly what you're working with.

Send a sample to Wardlab.com and get the W-4. Livestock Suitability test done for $25.

If you do need the softener, at least get a unit that measures water usage because it consumes less salt and uses less water than the timer based ones.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

I figured it would probably be cheaper and easier to just buy a new system if I'm going to replace everything but the tank

That would be surprising. I'm not scared of a little plumbing, though.

The plumbing of a softener isn't complicated. One pipe coming in, one pipe going out. One pipe or tube going to an air gap drain, and one small tube connecting the softener valve to the brine tank.

Russ