Is there any relation between the purity or quality of the water you use and how effective it can be for cleaning? About a year ago I started using an RO filter from Bulk Reef Supply and in an effort to conserve water I tried to use the "waste" water for other purposes like cleaning. Well, after 9 years of brewing I think I have my first infected batch and my first suspect is my SS Brew Buckets. I have noticed they do get a film on them but I thought I had cleaned them enough with PBW. Now I'm wondering if my rinsing can cleaning with this "waste" water might be part of the issue.
Water quality and cleaning
- Thread starter pretzelb
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Infections are biological. RO waste water is mineral. I don't see the risk there.
As for the film, I suppose if your water is hard enough it could leave a mineral deposit behind after the water evaporates.
Otoh, PBW can leave a film if not rinsed with hot enough water. Still, not a likely infection vector...
Cheers!
As for the film, I suppose if your water is hard enough it could leave a mineral deposit behind after the water evaporates.
Otoh, PBW can leave a film if not rinsed with hot enough water. Still, not a likely infection vector...
Cheers!
This^
What sanitizer do you use?
What sanitizer do you use?
pretzelb
Well-Known Member
My sanitizer for 9 years is Starsan.
pretzelb
Well-Known Member
The question I'm asking myself now is could the film I see leave surface area in the SS that could leave pockets where the sanitizer might not reach?
But I could also change the question and ignore the quality of the water. Could the film be beer stone? I assume everyone agrees that beer stone is something that can lead to infection.
If "I have noticed they do get a film on them" was a pre-cleaning condition then ignore everything I wrote earlier 
I had read the entirety of the post as leading to a post-cleaning film.
"You can't sanitize something that isn't clean" probably applies, then...
Cheers!
I had read the entirety of the post as leading to a post-cleaning film.
"You can't sanitize something that isn't clean" probably applies, then...
Cheers!
At least you got that covered!
Have you routinely taken that spigot/faucet on the bottom of the bucket apart and cleaned it inside? Together with the film on the inside that would be my priority.
I use some BKF on a non-scratch pad stuck to a stiff nylon hand brush (it gives me handle) to polish the inside of my stainless. After a few good spray off rinses and a drying cloth, it's left spotless.
Could be just a fluke too, but definitely eliminate the obvious before continuing.
How about your kettle valve? They can harbor bugs over time, Pedio especially.
pretzelb
Well-Known Member
Some people were mentioning the kettle too but won't anything in the valve be killed once boiling wort is cycled through?
I might need to break down the spigot on the brew buckets and give them a good cleaning. The film was my first concern. To be honest, they always seemed so clean to me that I never really scrubbed that hard. I might need to change that.
Even using gas burners, strangely enough that valve does not get hot enough inside to kill everything in there. There are small spaces in the "cheeks" behind the ball that can retain wort and harbor bugs. I've seen it, black tarrish goo. Pedio seems to be the main, hardiest culprit.
There are ways to clean valves after each brew, without disassembling them, that rinses out those spaces, at least enough to prevent problems in the short run. I still take them apart every 6-8 brews or so, or when I think they can use it. Haven't found anything since the special rinse outs. The 3-part valves are the easiest to maintain, but 2-part valves can be unscrewed too with help of a vise and a (long) pipe over the wrench, then cleaned.
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PBW and a stiff nylon hand brush gets most of the brewing goo off the kettle, but I've seen a film of deposits remaining over time, hence a little BKF. In the brew kettle that film (possibly beer stone, calcium oxalate) maybe not be as much of an issue, but inside cold side equipment, I'd get of it.
After a few years of use I scrubbed the inside of my stainless racking cane with one of those 3' long 5/16" draw brushes and a paste of BKF. I was stunned at the brownish-gray goo coming out.
After a few years of use I scrubbed the inside of my stainless racking cane with one of those 3' long 5/16" draw brushes and a paste of BKF. I was stunned at the brownish-gray goo coming out.
That's surprising to me. I use a plastic auto siphon I flush it with hot tap water and then soak it in OxiClean after use, and it always looks super clean. Do you normally soak it in PBW after use?
Homergah
Only I didn't say fudge
Following statements are general and are dependent on your feed water quality and your particular ro system.
When you flush your ro system dump the first bit of water. It will contain the highest tds. If your tap water is good for cleaning then your ro waste is probably fine as well. Unless you have gone far beyond your recommended flush intervals. Since your system probably uses 3 gallons of water to flush for every 1 gallon of ro used, your waste "can" be of better quality than your feed. "Can" if you follow the recommendations for flushing. If you're using the first runnings of waste you may have very high tds. I don't know if Starsan would have a problem with lowering the pH to the proper level to be effective. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.
When you flush your ro system dump the first bit of water. It will contain the highest tds. If your tap water is good for cleaning then your ro waste is probably fine as well. Unless you have gone far beyond your recommended flush intervals. Since your system probably uses 3 gallons of water to flush for every 1 gallon of ro used, your waste "can" be of better quality than your feed. "Can" if you follow the recommendations for flushing. If you're using the first runnings of waste you may have very high tds. I don't know if Starsan would have a problem with lowering the pH to the proper level to be effective. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.
TechFanMD
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure you're thinking of RO. You don't flush RO systems....the byproduct of the RO process (the water that doesn't get through the membrane) is the brine, and is at a constant flow any time you're making RO water (Permeate)........no flushing cycle.
EDIT: and depending on your source water, this brine can have a lot of dissolved solids - so if you use it to clean, you should rinse with regular water after or you will get a film that can be hard to remove after it dries or after multiple cleanings.
Since you felt the need to resort to RO water treatment I'm assuming your source water is quite rich in minerals and specifically in hardness. Depending on how efficient your RO system is waste water will have a much higher concentration of said minerals and most likely a total hardness that's hard to find in untreated source water, even from the worst sources. Using this water for cleaning is not really a good idea. Cleaning agents are proportionally less effective the harder the water ia and if you get to the point that you have visible scaling on the cleaned surfaces this will make things even worse and has the potential of increasing the risk of infection considerably. After all properly cleaned surfaces are a prerequisite of proper sanitation.
That said the infection you are currently experiencing might still have come from something else, such as an infected implement or valve.
That said the infection you are currently experiencing might still have come from something else, such as an infected implement or valve.
No never, I don't have a long narrow container to soak it in. I've seen brewers use a piece of PVC pipe with a cap on the bottom for long items like that.
But it gets rinsed and well brushed on the inside with some strong PBW solution after each use.
It's hard to see the inside of tubes, they may not be all that smooth and polished there, hence more cling and stickage.
I keep it in cleaning rotation now, and must say, it's never been as dirty as that first time.
Plastic/acrylic/polycarbonate is much smoother than the inside of that stainless cane. The outside is mirror-like, though. I've had it for 10 years and love it. Never had infected or off tasting batches.
The gray is expected, the brown not so. I'm surprised as well and I may have to try that on my ss canes just to see what happens.
I'm a "clean right after use" type so for sure anything that'll come out with a tubing brush and dishwasher soap and the hottest tap water I can stand is gone, but I haven't gone so far as recirculating PBW - or scrubbing with BFK paste - so I may have stuff there. Won't know 'til I give that a try. Then again I've never had an evidently infected batch so there might not be anything there to speak of...
Cheers!
