Water for brewing...

[OZZ]

Bare with me here Please this will be a bit long but really need some more input, I'm gonna have to dump four new kegs I think and you guys have been a great source of help and info!!

So I'm having major issues with my beer lately. getting a really bad metallic bite to them the longer they sit. I was really suspecting carbonic acid and that maybe I was over carbing but I've been doing set and forget at 12 psi and still having issues that increase, not decrease, the longer the kegs sit in the fridge. Burping does not seem to help.

I have several examples as to why I think/thought it may be over carbonation.

1) I kegged an IPA last week. Set it at 12psi, three days later it was carbed perfectly and tasted great (which is very fast!??) a week after that it's loosing flavor and developing significant metallic bite.

2) I had an English brown kegged at 8psi it sat for two weeks and tasted great. I turned it up to 12 psi and within three to four days it has now lost its flavor and developed significant metallic bite

After these facts last night I was convinced I was over carbing but I'm only at 12 psi like everyone recommends! I am at 7000' elevation though, could this affect things in this area at all?

Now this is what brings me to suspecting my water. Last night I was tasting all my beers they all had that metallic bite. Some had it BAD- undrinkable. I get to work this morning and I bring a 5 gallon plastic better bottle of water to work every week or so because the drinking water at work sucks and mine tasted better when straight from the tap. This time I was slow drinking the water and it's been setting for maybe eight days. Not thinking about it I pull a glass of water to drink and boom. There's that metallic taste. It was subtle but definitely there.

I have brewed beers that tasted great. The thing is though those kegs got drank relatively soon, almost right away. These kegs tasted fine right away too, as does the water I bring to work. When it's fresh from the tap it tastes great, after a week I get metallic tastes forming.

SO .... I have a 10 gallon batch in my fermenter for now brewed with my straight tap water. I'm going to keg it and put it on low psi. That should tell me whether or not carbonation is a factor..... I think.

So then moving on to water. I do have an r/o filter I could use, or I could use bottled water from the store for a test batch. I think I might just go get bottled water for this batch to confirm or rule out water as a culprit. From there I may look to building water from scratch.

If you guys have ANY suggestions whatsoever I'm all ears. My brew kettles are stainless steel, I have been storing starsan in my kegs (which I'm not going to do anymore I've decided, just in case), and I don't go over 170 on mash out. I try my best not to oxidize the beer but I do cold crash which could be pulling air in the airlock bung when I remove it but I rack the beer directly to the keg as gently as possible and immediately purge the O2 from the headspace.

Gonna have to dump four freaking kegs I guess and put everything on hold until I get this figured out!

Thoughts? Maybe it's a combination of over carb and water?

 

[jekeane]

You said "lately" from the sound of it and the fact that you have at least 4 kegs I assume you have been brewing awhile and have not had this problem before. What has changed equipment wise? What are you doing differently or have you moved? Iron content (usually from pipes) in water can cause this problem as can copper. Ceramic coated steel pots with a chip are another source or iron. Figuring out if it is water is pretty simple just do a batch with all ro or distilled water.

 

[Redhawk96]

Check out this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=438725

I was having similar issues, but described the flavor as medicinal, but that could just be a different way of describing it. My problem was almost surelt chloramines in my water, and treating it with Campden has eliminated the issue for me. I would say that I wouldn't notice the off flavor until it was fully carbed, and then it was awful. I ended up dumping 4 kegs as well.

 

[OZZ]

i have brewed maybe ten to twelve previous batches. The difference is I was drinking them all very soon after kegging. Wanting to up my game I decided to condition everything for two weeks during a slow carb rather than keg, hit it at 30psi for a day or two then let it set for a few more and then drink the keg. I have had some that sat around though for awhile without this problem so I'm not entirely sure how to answer that.

My pot is stainless steel ... Both my mash water heating pot and my boil kettle. I do have brass fittings on my mash tun but have been told it's not a problem at mash temps?

I didn't think I could use straight RO? I thought it needed some solutes in it? I do have an RO filter I could easily do a batch with that or just go buy water.

I did have several of my earlier brews set in the kegerator for a good three weeks or so and were fine... All at 12 psi

Another wonder is if storing used starsan in my kegs for months might have something to do with it. I've read people do it but it does leave a film in not happy about so I'm going to do a hard pbw clean and rinse on all kegs and store dry from here on out

Another wonder is that I'm on well water that's managed by the Hoa, maybe they changed something?

 

[wardens355]

I didn't think I could use straight RO? I thought it needed some solutes in it? I do have an RO filter I could easily do a batch with that or just go buy water.

Another wonder is that I'm on well water that's managed by the Hoa, maybe they changed something?

If you use RO, get some minerals to add (gypsum, calcium chloride, epsom salt, iodide-free salt, maybe calcium carbonate, baking soda). They are relatively cheap. You can then use a water spreadsheet, like Bru'n Water or similar, to build your own water. I use water from a Glacier bulk water vending machine and build up the mineral profile batch-by-batch. You may want to start measuring pH if you go this route.

I suggest that you ask the HOA what they do to treat their well water. It is possible that they started adding a new chemical/disinfectant or had to change their treatment process.

 

[Yooper]

i have brewed maybe ten to twelve previous batches. The difference is I was drinking them all very soon after kegging. Wanting to up my game I decided to condition everything for two weeks during a slow carb rather than keg, hit it at 30psi for a day or two then let it set for a few more and then drink the keg. I have had some that sat around though for awhile without this problem so I'm not entirely sure how to answer that.

My pot is stainless steel ... Both my mash water heating pot and my boil kettle. I do have brass fittings on my mash tun but have been told it's not a problem at mash temps?

I didn't think I could use straight RO? I thought it needed some solutes in it? I do have an RO filter I could easily do a batch with that or just go buy water.

I did have several of my earlier brews set in the kegerator for a good three weeks or so and were fine.

Another wonder is if storing used starsan in my kegs for months might have something to do with it. I've read people do it but it does leave a film in not happy about so I'm going to do a hard pbw clean and rinse on all kegs and store dry from here on out

Another wonder is that I'm on well water that's managed by the Hoa, maybe they changed something?

100% RO water is ideal. You can add some calcium chloride to it, if you want. You can add gypsum to hoppy beers, if you want. Malt has plenty of minerals so you don't really have to add anything, but people often use gypsum or calcium chloride "to taste", like you would salt for seasoning food. We can help you with that.

I have read that storing star-san in kegs is not recommended (by the manufacturer of star-san) but I know others do it.

 

[OZZ]

Check out this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=438725

I was having similar issues, but described the flavor as medicinal, but that could just be a different way of describing it. My problem was almost surelt chloramines in my water, and treating it with Campden has eliminated the issue for me. I would say that I wouldn't notice the off flavor until it was fully carbed, and then it was awful. I ended up dumping 4 kegs as well.

Thanks RedHawk I'll look into the thread. I'm on a community well maintained by the Hoa and didn't think there was chlorine (or fluoride or chloramines used)

 

[OZZ]

Warden and hooper, thanks a ton for the input. Sounds like my best bet is doing another test batch with RO water and doing a thorough cleaning if all kegs (I clean everything else religiously). If I can use straight RO I might go that route for simplicity either that or buy bottled spring water, brew a batch and see what happens.

So there's no affect my elevation has on carbonation? I'm at 7000'

 

[OZZ]

You know what.... It just dawned on me, the brew kettle I used on these batches has slowly been developing a discolored ring on the bottom interior of the pot. I wonder if that could be it? It's a copper colored ring I'll grab a pic tonight after work.

Good news is I just bought a twenty gallon mega pot from northern brewer and the 10 gallon batch in the fermenter was brewed with the new pot so that will be a good test to see if the kettle is the problem.

 

[OZZ]

I'm almost embarrassed to ask now that I'm looking at these pics but.... I'm guessing this could be the culprit? This is the bottom of my stainless steel brew kettle

 

[OZZ]

Closer

 

[Yooper]

I've never seen anything like that in my stainless. Can you use some Barkeeper's Friend, and get that off?

 

[OZZ]

Maybe, good news is I bought a new 20 gal mega pot from northern brewer and used it on the 10 gal batch that's in the conical now. That pot is heading to the trash.

I didn't know about passivation though so I did not passivate the mega pot before brewing the current batch. I'll passivate it with barkeepers friend. I'll clean the kegs out with pbw and keg the new batch on Saturday. Then I'm going to carb really low .... Like 8 psi. That will rule out the old boil kettle, over carbing, and star San in kegs possibilities. If it ends up coming out the same than its gotta be the water. If the beer is fine than it was one of those issues which I can correct.

I shut the gas off on my other beers and burped them several times last night and today and they do seem to be a bit better. We will see I guess?

 

[OZZ]

Just wanted to update everyone. I turned the gas off three days ago and have been burping the kegs to degas... The metallic off flavor is gone and the beer tastes good again. I'm not sure how I'm over carbing at 12psi but I have two regulators and both, set at 12 psi, will cause these flavors over the course of a week.

Tgis correlates with my brown ale that was fine at 8 psi for several weeks only developing off flavors once set to 12 psi.

Regardless, from here on out I'm going to build style specific water from RO water, which will prevent this from happening if it is chloramines or something else in the water reacting to the CO2 when fully carbed as suggested above. Plus .... it will make the beer better!

 

[Yooper]

J

Regardless, from here on out I'm going to build style specific water from RO water, which will prevent this from happening if it is chloramines or something else in the water reacting to the CO2 when fully carbed as suggested above. Plus .... it will make the beer better!

Be very careful with "style specific water". Most of water building profiles aren't a target. There may be some general things that are true, but most people who follow a "style specific water" end up with an unsatisfactory result.

The Brew Science area of the forum has a ton of good water tips, and that would be a good place to start.

 

[OZZ]

Will do. Thanks yooper!

 

[OZZ]

Be very careful with "style specific water". Most of water building profiles aren't a target. There may be some general things that are true, but most people who follow a "style specific water" end up with an unsatisfactory result.

The Brew Science area of the forum has a ton of good water tips, and that would be a good place to start.

I was planning on following this:

Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:


Hefeweizen: For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3% (you can make great Hefe with soft water too).

Porter: For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

Light Ale: For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum

IPA: For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and gypsum (2tsp of each)



..... While it's not necessarily style specific it gives me a loose guideline to follow.