Wash Wheat yeast pitching

[milldoggy]

I washed a bunch of white labs hefe and bavarian yeast in nov. I am going to brew a hefe this weekend. Should I just pitch the washed yeast or make a starter. The washed yeast in the mason jars has a 1/2 to 1/4 inch a pure white yeast. I heard that you get better clove/bannana when the yeast are strained. Should I just pitch two jars in each 5 gallon? I have been washing yeast for a while and never had any problems with my process, so I am not worried about bad yeast. Any other thoughts?

 

[breez7]

I would never use washed yeast past 4 weeks, hell even two weeks is long. You are going to have a ton of mutated yeast in there. There is nothing you can do to correct that. If you make a starter you will just be multiplying bad, unhealthy yeast.

Will it make beer? yes. Will it taste good? maybe.

Spend the 7 bucks and buy some yeast.

 

[zeekage]

Why would the yeast mutate after washed? There's no more fermentation going on and in the fridge they go dormant. At least that seems to be the prevailing advice I've seen here.

 

[breez7]

Ready the book yeast by the owner of white labs

 

[sprice37]

By "White Labs" who makes their money on us buying their yeast, not by us washing yeast and saving it. v Sounds like the book could very well be one sided to me.

 

[bullinachinashop]

FWIW, I've used washed yeast after 6 months without any problems or off flavors.

I do make a starter.

I have a 4th generation wlp400 washed now that I originally started from an expired date vile.

Still making yummy beer!

Bull

 

[milldoggy]

I have to agree. I have used yeast 6 months old and never had any problems. I am on my 4th washing on wyeast Can/Bel and I think the beer it makes taste better then the same recipe with the first run.

 

[bullinachinashop]

Also, in the book Yeast, JP and or Jamil state that the best fermentations and beer come from the 3rd and 4th generations.

Bull

 

[breez7]

Yes, those later generations are better if you are operating like a brewery. Brewing every couple days. My education back round is micro biology, saving yeast that long will not produce great beer.

Good beer? Maybe fair beer? Probably.

Do what you want but 7 bucks is 7 bucks...

 

[breez7]

You're the one who asked for advice. If you wanna make great beer rather than drinkable beer, take the advice you asked for.

 

[bullinachinashop]

I'm drinking a great beer right now (Belgin Wit 3rd generation) and my other keg is filled with an Irish Red that I had tasted by 2 certified judges and both were very happy with it. The Red was only 2nd generation though.

Where are you from breez7???

Bull

 

[beninan]

You're the one who asked for advice. If you wanna make great beer rather than drinkable beer, take the advice you asked for.

I don't think milldoggy is wondering about the viability of the yeast from washing it back in November. I think milldoggy is wondering about the amount to pitch, and if a starter should be used.

If that is your question, I would only use 1 jar and make a simple starter just to get those yeasty beasties awake and ready.

 

[breez7]

Viable or not it won't be good yeast.

You could culture as much bad yeast as you want, all its gonna make is mediocrity.

Maybe you get lucky but like I said its 7 measly dollars.

I'm from northeast oh.

 

[beninan]

How would dormant yeast mutate? I'm not trying to say you are wrong, I would just like to know. I know plenty of people on here don't have problem with using old yeast, even after 2 years!

And $7 may just be $7 to you, but for some people and certain recipes, $7 could be doubling the cost of the ingredients.

 

[breez7]

In any species,.fungi, bacteria, human beings...for

 

[breez7]

For every million you have 1 mutation under optimal conditions.

So for us it is prob doubled or trippled.

And we are dealing with billions of cells. Lots of mutations.

It's much more complicated than this but I'm out tonight tryin to catch a buzz.

 

[milldoggy]

I don't think milldoggy is wondering about the viability of the yeast from washing it back in November. I think milldoggy is wondering about the amount to pitch, and if a starter should be used.

If that is your question, I would only use 1 jar and make a simple starter just to get those yeasty beasties awake and ready.

Yes, thank you, that is what I was asking. I did not want to get into a viability debate, just should I make a starter or not for a wheat beer. Since I read that you get better flavors with the yeast straining or starting slow. I have always in the past made a starter, just wanted to try something different and wanted to asked the advice of the members.

I feel I make good beer with washed yeast and I feel saving 7 dollars is worth it, maybe someday my opinion will change, but for now, I like washing yeast.

 

[beninan]

For every million you have 1 mutation under optimal conditions.

So for us it is prob doubled or trippled.

And we are dealing with billions of cells. Lots of mutations.

It's much more complicated than this but I'm out tonight tryin to catch a buzz.

I can understand that, but that will be the same with that $7 yeast. If the yeast has 100 billion cells, then you are guaranteed to have a large handful of mutated cells even from new yeast that will reproduce in the beer to create more mutated cells.

But that still doesn't explain how refrigerating yeast will create more mutated cells, based on the length of time it is refrigerated for.

 

[milldoggy]

I say - RDWHAHB

 

[bullinachinashop]

I can see if you put your yeast through a stressfull situation (like a high ABV fermentation) that they may want to expire or mutate.

If you take care of them by adding Servomyces and giving them the oxygen that they need, then letting them slowly re-absorb what they need to go dormant, you should be able to wash and then propogate them for further service.

I'm sure they don't mutate or change at the drop of a hat or we wouldn't be able to propogate or selectively choose them.

Bull

 

[beninan]

Yes, thank you, that is what I was asking. I did not want to get into a viability debate, just should I make a starter or not for a wheat beer. Since I read that you get better flavors with the yeast straining or starting slow. I have always in the past made a starter, just wanted to try something different and wanted to asked the advice of the members.

I feel I make good beer with washed yeast and I feel saving 7 dollars is worth it, maybe someday my opinion will change, but for now, I like washing yeast.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html, Mr. Malty pitching calculator. If you are after that "banana" taste, instead of under pitching, maybe try fermenting at the hotter end of the temperature range for the yeast.

 

[milldoggy]

just another thought, are all mutation bad. I mean, if I mutated and could control magnetism like Magneto, I would not complain.

 

[milldoggy]

Thanks for the link, I forgot that had a repitching from slurry calc. The last 4 months have been spent on the new brewery build. 2nd batch this week on the new e-herms.

 

[jangelj]

yeah, i'd definitely use that washed yeast. I'd also make a starter for it. I'd also wash some more when that batch is done. I've washed several generations and had yeast sit for 6 months in the fridge and still made great beer with it.
Go for it!

 

[ChillWill]

Bit of yeast nutrient probably wouldn't do any harm either.

 

[zeekage]

just another thought, are all mutation bad. I mean, if I mutated and could control magnetism like Magneto, I would not complain.

:rockin:

 

[erikpete18]

Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about the mutations. Don't get me wrong, you'll definitely have some mutated yeast, but we all do all the time. Presumably you haven't selected for any specific mutation though, so the mutations will all be random and spread across the genome. The odds of a significant mutation (meaning it affects the fermentation/taste) is pretty low to begin with, and the odds of it happening on a large scale are too small to worry about.

However, I'd also agree with the others that you should make up a starter, if for no other reason than just for your peace of mind in case fermentation doesn't take off right away. If you want some esters, make it a small starter or stress the yeast in another way (temp like beninan mentioned, higher gravity wort, etc.).

 

[ACbrewer]

With a beer you can taste along the way to see how it it going... Is there any way [you can tell if a yeast starter will produce OK flavors before pitching it?.... And the method shouldn't include $100K machinery, just stuff you can easily lay your hands on

I'm asking in light of the whole 'viablity' discussion. I'm currious because I rarely do the same yeast 2x in a row, because I rarely do the same beer style twice in a row I definately come under the 'wash and use in 6months' catagory.

 

[milldoggy]

well the rain and my thirst prevented me from doing a starter. I usually do them on the grill side burner. My experience on my glass top stove has been less than stellar. So I might pitch all four jars of each yeast I have and roll the dice. I would rather have used a starter though. I will report how it goes.

 

[KAMMEE]

A thought, use your microwave, whip the DME and the water and nutrient with an egg wisk, put that in a glass bowl in the microwave until it boils, then use a funnel to transfer to the flask and make your starter.

 

[milldoggy]

I did fathom that for a sec. Never tried it before. Think it is to late. Playing craps on this one. Thanks for the suggestion though.