TANSTAAFB
Well-Known Member
That's what gelatin is for!
Warm Fermented Lager Thread
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That's what gelatin is for!
Yep, in hinsight, I thought the same
OP
OP
applescrap
Be the ball!
Yeah, flocculation is slower with lager yeast that is what makes the beers so clean, if i am correct. Lagers can be fermented warm no doubt, but as noted they do benefit from aging. Cold crashing and using gelatin cleared my last 15 gallons extremely well.
MaryB
Well-Known Member
Okay ordered some 34/70, I have Belgian Pilsner malt on hand, some Victory, UK extra dark crystal... but the local brew shop has 1 pound bags of other malts... will do an 11 gallon batch of whatever recipe I can come up with to use the Belgian Pilsner malt! right now it is 66 in my pantry, by the time I brew a lager it will be low 60's high 50's back there... so I come close to lager temps...
TANSTAAFB
Well-Known Member
I posted this in a 5 Rabbits thread but makes sense to share here as well. This would work with your Belgian pilsner!
I just bought Session Beers and (never heard of the brewery before buying the book) decided to brew the 5 Rabbits La Bici Vienna lager. It's bubbling away now!
The original is
5g calcium chloride
6# Pilsner
3# pale Malt
1.75# Borlander Munich
1.6 oz Crystal 40
2.4 oz Midnight Wheat
.25oz Tettnang 75 min
1.25oz Celeia 15 min
2oz Tettnang Whirlpool
.5oz Celeia Whirlpool
What I brewed is
5g calcium chloride
1 Campden tablet
8# Pilsner
2# Borlander Munich
1# Vienna
2.2oz Crystal 40
3.4 oz Midnight Wheat
6oz Acid malt
.5oz Tettnang 75 min
1oz Celeia 15 min
.5oz Tettnang 15 min
Whirlfloc
Yeast nutrient
2oz Tettnang Whirlpool
1oz Celeia Whirlpool
34/70
I really wish Brad would make it possible to copy a simple text version of recipes in Beersmith!
So my HBC met yesterday and I brought one each of boiled and not. Wasn't able to do a triangle, or even a side by side, but one and then the other. They were all surprised by the no boil. They were definitely different, but of the eight people present said they liked the no boil better than the boiled. Go figure 
Go figure
MaryB
Well-Known Member
Its a start... may go simpler with fewer grains until I have lagers down... don't need campden, I use distilled water with added minerals...
Sry, wrong thread.
I don't have a dedicated fridge/incubator. So, the fermentation at room temperature sounded good enough to give it a try. However, I was suspicious why all commercial breweries spend $$$ on cooling if it were not necessarily (= pays for itself). So, I split a batch of a Heineken clone in half. One fermented at 19-20C room temperature with S-23, the other in a bucket with ice water. Despite the big temperature variations in the ice water bucket, it came out so much cleaner. Since then I clean out my fridge, cool the wort (40-80l) all the way down and keep it in there during the lag phase and until the beginning of fermentation. Thereafter, I let it warm up to room temps since I typically need the fridge back.
Even without true cold crashing (only down to dispensing temp) and without adding pork-rind powder, it turns out pretty clean after 3 weeks in the keg. Intentional aging beyond 6 weeks in the fridge however is something I have not found worth the effort.
Well, the trick is to use a lager yeast that can handle the higher temperatures. And it doesn't look like s 23 is one of those.
TANSTAAFB
Well-Known Member
Pork rind powder? You're f@#$in with us right?
alright, what are the top 3 strains in your opinion that handle 20C (68F) room temperature and achieve a comparable flavour profile to a fermentation temp of 10C (50F)?
that's what gelatin is made out of 80% of the time.
no doubt, that gelatine works great (and I do like gummibears too), but it is not always necessary and sometimes reminding myself what it actually is, encourages me to think twice if I really need it every single time (especially if I know I have to age/lager anyway)
@chris000
Have a look what nb wrote:
As far as I read, nb is right. I only brewed with 34 70 myself but the results were good. Flocculation is quite low though, will try the mangrove jack m 54 next, should flocc better.
Have a look what nb wrote:
As far as I read, nb is right. I only brewed with 34 70 myself but the results were good. Flocculation is quite low though, will try the mangrove jack m 54 next, should flocc better.
I only read one article where someone did a side by side comparison with W-34/70. Results were not overly conclusive either way. As stated my trial with S-23 might not have been overly elaborate, but 8 out of 8 testers preferred the cold fermented beer. The warm fermented was however absolutely fine to drink.
So, I'm not at all debating that a warm fermentation would not yield an okay beer, but side by side is the only way to show the influence.
I might give 34/70 a try the next time and split a small portion off for warm fermentation.
There have been exbeeriments on brulosophy with 34/70 that did show that it performs warm as well as colder. My pilsener is just great, fermented with it at room temperature.
Yes, please let us know how it turns out. I would do it the opposite way, split a small portion for cold fermentation
There have been exbeeriments on brulosophy with 34/70 that did show that it performs warm as well as colder. My pilsener is just great, fermented with it at room temperature.
Yes, please let us know how it turns out. I would do it the opposite way, split a small portion for cold fermentation
LMAO
I'm tempted to use two bottles covered with tin foil for the warm arm of the trial and compare it to pressure fermentation in kegs under controlled temp. no bias at all, eh.
Seriously, I was not planning on anything with W34/70 (or WLP830/2124) in the near future, but wanted to use some Weihenstephan 206 (WLP820 / 2206) and only make sure it gets a cool start.
Anyone experience with 206 on the warm end?
I'm extremely new to lager, and my basement is 58° F (about 15° C).
I decided to make a Sam Adams Black Lager clone and I'm going to make an Anchor Steam clone later this week. I figure Sam Adams doesn't use California Common yeast for their Black Lager, but I wanted to try it out.
Crossmyloof says their California Common strain is fine up to 22°C (71.6° F): https://www.crossmyloofbrew.co.uk/yeast-specs
I won't be able to share my findings for a few weeks though.
OP
OP
applescrap
Be the ball!
The wlp800 marzen is stellar. This beer is delicious and I would consider using this yeast again. Too often my lhbs is out of 34/70 so I need a second choice. Maybe will try the mj next.
TANSTAAFB
Well-Known Member
I just moved and have a homebrew club for the first time! And the president of the Bookcliff Brew Club is a biologist who maintains a yeast bank! I grabbed the Alt yeast to compare a cool fermented ale yeast that's supposed to give clean, lager like character to a warm fermented lager yeast like 34/70. I'll see what lager strains he has when I get back. Maybe the club would be interested in doing some yeast strain tests. We've already talked about doing that with some of the unknown wild strains he's isolated.
OK my first warm fermented lager is fermenting. It is also first lager I've tried brewing since 2012.
Bru'n water profile for PseudoBohPils
malt 90/10 2-row/munich
mashed at 148F 75 min with a mashout
Hallertauer Mittelfrueh with 2oz additions at 60/30/20/10 min for total 23 ibu
OG 1.054
16.5 gallons into fermentor
3 packs 34/70 hydrated
1 minute O2
Fermenting at 66F had bubbles in my blowoff tube at 12 hours
If this comes out well I'm thinking to use the cake for a big baltic porter in a couple weeks.
Bru'n water profile for PseudoBohPils
malt 90/10 2-row/munich
mashed at 148F 75 min with a mashout
Hallertauer Mittelfrueh with 2oz additions at 60/30/20/10 min for total 23 ibu
OG 1.054
16.5 gallons into fermentor
3 packs 34/70 hydrated
1 minute O2
Fermenting at 66F had bubbles in my blowoff tube at 12 hours
If this comes out well I'm thinking to use the cake for a big baltic porter in a couple weeks.
OP
OP
applescrap
Be the ball!
Sounds awesome.
11Days Grain to glass sample.
Just fermented a smash 100% bohemian pilsner malt with Motueka ( 37ibu fwh @ 45min) 2g/L whirlpool, 3g/L dry hop.
Yeast was 34/70, one pack for 10L/2.5Gal
It spent 6 days fermenting @ 18c/64f then 4 days cold crashed with gelatin @ 5c/41f
Then I bottled it (keezer is dead
) and for the fun I put one bottle to bottle condition @ 32c/90f during 24H while I'm fermenting something else.Was pretty surprised at the carbonation level and how clean the beer was, looks promising...
Bottom line 34/70 is a beast.
Nebraskan
Assoc. Winemaker
Reminds me of a poem
Peas porridge hot and peas porridge cold,
Peas porridge in the pot nine days old.
Some like it hot,
Some like it cold,
Some like it in the pot 9 days old.
Just thought I'd add that.
BTW, I just racked a warm fermented Munich Dunkel that I used S-23 yeast that was saved on the bottom of the prior Dunkel I made. Made it into a starter that was going very well when I pitched it in. Saturday evening the 18th Nov. Wed, Nov 22 I racked it off yeast as it was done at 1.0093 FG. Went from 1.052 Starting Gravity to 1.0093 in 4 days. Today I tasted it and it is very clean. Falling bright as well.
MaryB
Well-Known Member
Okay next chance I have to brew is going to be a SMASH lager, 22 pounds Belgian Pilsner(11 gallon batch), 3oz Hallertau 60 minutes, 2 oz 10 min... no this will not be an exciting beer, basic lager to give me an idea how warmer(ale temp) fermentation does. 34/70 for yeast.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Kinda the opposite - it's the Saaz group of lager yeasts which flocc better but which have lower esters (and lower attenuation, as they don't take up maltotriose). However they don't cope so well with warm temperatures - 34/70 is, like most commercial lager yeasts, a Frohberg type which has more ale yeast DNA and which copes better with high temperatures (but doesn't flocc so well and isn't quite as clean).
My working hypothesis is that this thread is about the Frohberg group of yeasts (in general, the Germanic lager yeasts of which 34/70 is the benchmark) whereas the ones that don't work so well at high temperautres are Saaz yeasts (Carlsberg and the Czech yeasts).
Nebraskan
Assoc. Winemaker
In another thread a guy was using Saflager S-189 at normal room temps and winning contests with it. It is also a very good candidate. Local HBS in Holland, MI suggested it as well, saying there have been many positive results and feedback from commercial local micro breweries using this S-189.
I currently have some very unusual yeast coming to me form Norther Brewer supply, called OmgegaVoss Kveik. It is a Norwegian strain that is fairly neutral ale "type" yeast with ability to ferment cleanly even up to 104 F. My ideas is to take the beer I have just started, the Munich Dunkel in 1 gallon just that is fermenting in my closet, that I inoculated this morning with the S-189 at 1:00 AM and ALREADY has a very thick kraeusen (that's froth) on top at 11:00 AM (10 hrs), and save that yeast and combine it with some of the Kveik yeast to try to get a hybrid of the two. I'll keep using that yeast sediment for several generations to see what results I get.
The Kveik strain has been touted as The Hottest New centuries old beer yeast you've never heard of: http://draftmag.com/kveik-the-hottest-new-centuries-old-beer-yeast-youve-never-heard-of/
I've read in this article as well, that they pitched the yeast, went to lunch and 40 minutes later it was fermenting. Many times the fermentation is done in 2-3 days. I've also read that the Norwegians start drinking this "Farmhouse" beer in about 3-4 days. They have tested some strains of the Norwegian Kveik yeasts with an alcohol tolerance of up to 16 %, most tolerate 13 per cent, HIGHLY unusual for beer yeasts. That article is here: http://zythophile.co.uk/
I currently have some very unusual yeast coming to me form Norther Brewer supply, called OmgegaVoss Kveik. It is a Norwegian strain that is fairly neutral ale "type" yeast with ability to ferment cleanly even up to 104 F. My ideas is to take the beer I have just started, the Munich Dunkel in 1 gallon just that is fermenting in my closet, that I inoculated this morning with the S-189 at 1:00 AM and ALREADY has a very thick kraeusen (that's froth) on top at 11:00 AM (10 hrs), and save that yeast and combine it with some of the Kveik yeast to try to get a hybrid of the two. I'll keep using that yeast sediment for several generations to see what results I get.
The Kveik strain has been touted as The Hottest New centuries old beer yeast you've never heard of: http://draftmag.com/kveik-the-hottest-new-centuries-old-beer-yeast-youve-never-heard-of/
I've read in this article as well, that they pitched the yeast, went to lunch and 40 minutes later it was fermenting. Many times the fermentation is done in 2-3 days. I've also read that the Norwegians start drinking this "Farmhouse" beer in about 3-4 days. They have tested some strains of the Norwegian Kveik yeasts with an alcohol tolerance of up to 16 %, most tolerate 13 per cent, HIGHLY unusual for beer yeasts. That article is here: http://zythophile.co.uk/
I am also currently investigating the availability of the kveik yeasts. Looks like there are two versions of it available at the moment. The kvoss version and the hothead version.
Unfortunately, both are only isolated single strains. The original kveik yeast, handed down for generations in Norway and surrounding countries, is usually a mix of multiple Yeasts and bacteria that work together.
I would love to get hold on a glass of this original mix. But I think I might need to go to Norway for that...
Unfortunately, both are only isolated single strains. The original kveik yeast, handed down for generations in Norway and surrounding countries, is usually a mix of multiple Yeasts and bacteria that work together.
I would love to get hold on a glass of this original mix. But I think I might need to go to Norway for that...
As far as I understood most of them are a sach strains, over the 20 strains I heard of there is one norwegian containing lacto, and the one I'am curently using Simonaitis from Lithuania (mad pineapple esters, better than my neipa when I stepped it ut!).
And they are not sure if the lacto was originally part of the strain of it came later when people starting to spread it around the world.
The commercial one Sigmund voss is pretty good base to start with and honestly who doesn't get impressed by a clean less than 24H ferment @ 41c !
Then they key to get the esters are to underpitch and not oxygenate them (they are beast...), I head they could ferment as well as low as in the 10ish degrees but never tried.
I'am currently playing with the simonaitis strain, and later on will try to do a smash with the framgarden one.
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Kveik
Oh and If you want to get hold of close to original Kveik strains i suggest looking for facebook group with the same name, you could find some people willing to send you some.
P.S: Not sure if links are allowed but thought it would be useful.
Back to lagers, I cant wait to try my warm fermented NZ pils, I just hope it wont be full of diacetyl with the short time fermenting...
And they are not sure if the lacto was originally part of the strain of it came later when people starting to spread it around the world.
The commercial one Sigmund voss is pretty good base to start with and honestly who doesn't get impressed by a clean less than 24H ferment @ 41c !
Then they key to get the esters are to underpitch and not oxygenate them (they are beast...), I head they could ferment as well as low as in the 10ish degrees but never tried.
I'am currently playing with the simonaitis strain, and later on will try to do a smash with the framgarden one.
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Kveik
Oh and If you want to get hold of close to original Kveik strains i suggest looking for facebook group with the same name, you could find some people willing to send you some.
P.S: Not sure if links are allowed but thought it would be useful.
Back to lagers, I cant wait to try my warm fermented NZ pils, I just hope it wont be full of diacetyl with the short time fermenting...
Wow, thanks mate, MUCH appreciated!
Nebraskan
Assoc. Winemaker
I think the warm ferment will take care of you diacetyl as the yeast will be able to clean up after themselves.
Lager yeast has only been around a few hundred years. It appears to have been a hybrid of a yeast from Argentina that crossed with the ale yeasts in Europe. Saccharomyces pastorianus is the Lager yeast, and Saccharomyces cerevisiae main yeast of wines, and ales, and Saccharomyces bayanus another wine yeast, but also the progeny of S. eubayanus from Argentina, which I believe is one of the parents of modern lager yeasts. See the most interesting read,.... here: https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-01/beersci-what-difference-between-lager-and-ale#page-2
Lager yeast has only been around a few hundred years. It appears to have been a hybrid of a yeast from Argentina that crossed with the ale yeasts in Europe. Saccharomyces pastorianus is the Lager yeast, and Saccharomyces cerevisiae main yeast of wines, and ales, and Saccharomyces bayanus another wine yeast, but also the progeny of S. eubayanus from Argentina, which I believe is one of the parents of modern lager yeasts. See the most interesting read,.... here: https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-01/beersci-what-difference-between-lager-and-ale#page-2
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
That popsci article is rather out of date, once people started looking for S.eubayanus they found it everywhere from New Zealand to Canada to Tibet. The parent of lager yeasts looks most like the northern hemisphere group of eubayanus, which split from the rest around 60,000 years ago (give or take). So Columbus didn't play a part in creating lager yeast, it looks like eubayanus probably moved north during one of the Ice Ages then made its way to Europe and hybridised with local ale yeasts. It's not been found in Europe yet but I'm sure that's just a matter of time. There's a parallel with one of the wine yeasts - researchers couldn't find one of the parents in European vineyards, then found it thousands of miles away in Asia, but finally found it on oak trees in Europe.
The genetics of lager yeast get really messy (Bokulich has a good recent summary, which gets a bit technical) but S.eubayanus seems to have hybridised with two different European ale yeasts, creating the Saaz and Frohberg groups of lager yeast. These have different chromosome numbers (mostly) and all sorts of other differences, so current thinking is that they should probably be regarded as separate species.
Might I gently suggest that the Norwegian yeasts are important enough to get their own thread? They are relevant to far more than just lager brewing - and after all they aren't lager yeasts.
ISTR that Lars found at least one kveik strain where bacteria played a critical part in the taste of the beer, he got the NCYC to clean it up and beer made with the yeast on its own just didn't taste "right".
The genetics of lager yeast get really messy (Bokulich has a good recent summary, which gets a bit technical) but S.eubayanus seems to have hybridised with two different European ale yeasts, creating the Saaz and Frohberg groups of lager yeast. These have different chromosome numbers (mostly) and all sorts of other differences, so current thinking is that they should probably be regarded as separate species.
Might I gently suggest that the Norwegian yeasts are important enough to get their own thread? They are relevant to far more than just lager brewing - and after all they aren't lager yeasts.
ISTR that Lars found at least one kveik strain where bacteria played a critical part in the taste of the beer, he got the NCYC to clean it up and beer made with the yeast on its own just didn't taste "right".
Sooo anybody tried Lallemand Diamond Lager in a warm ferment?
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Given that it's described as a German lager yeast, I guess it must be a Frohberg yeast, which would suggest that it's got a similarly ale-y temperature range as 34/70. I wonder if it's the same yeast that supposedly makes up 70% of Nottingham.
It's certainly not common in the UK - having had a quick look round the big UK suppliers, the only place I found it was THBC in Ireland (no affiliation) who have the most comprehensive range of Lallemand stuff out of our usual suspects, they have most of the 500g packs of Lallemand and Fermentis as well. I see over on another thread that the retail packs have just hit the US, I wonder if the problem in the UK is that Nottingham is so common here that people just use that?
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Ah, here we go - it was Terje Raftevold's 8-strain yeast NCYC 4051 from Hornindal that needed the bacteria - a brewday is described here.
Brulosopher
Well-Known Member
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That's freakin awesome! Just moved where there's an active homebrew club, really hope they enjoy geeking out to this stuff...are club attempts to replicate xbmts asking too much?![/QUOTE]
Do it!
Never done a high OG beer warm with lager yeast, but it’s on the list!
Brewed my first Lager on the 22nd. More or less a Pre-Prohibition type. 1.040 and 30 IBUs. 2 row, a bit of Munich 10L and Cluster hops. Used 34/70 pitched at 68 and cooled slowly to 63. Pitched 11.5 grams of yeast directly onto wort and had a good layer of foam in about 8 hours and active fermentation in less than 12. I always rehydrated dry yeast in the past, but have been reading lately that it's kind of a toss-up whether or not to rehydrate.
Fermentation slowed noticeably after 4 days, so ramped up to 67 for a D rest. Will leave it there for another week before kegging and fining.
Thanks to Marshall and the guys for the warm fermented lager experiment, I might be making more lagers if this works out.
Fermentation slowed noticeably after 4 days, so ramped up to 67 for a D rest. Will leave it there for another week before kegging and fining.
Thanks to Marshall and the guys for the warm fermented lager experiment, I might be making more lagers if this works out.
Brewed my first Lager on the 22nd. More or less a Pre-Prohibition type. 1.040 and 30 IBUs. 2 row, a bit of Munich 10L and Cluster hops. Used 34/70 pitched at 68 and cooled slowly to 63. Pitched 11.5 grams of yeast directly onto wort and had a good layer of foam in about 8 hours and active fermentation in less than 12. I always rehydrated dry yeast in the past, but have been reading lately that it's kind of a toss-up whether or not to rehydrate.
Fermentation slowed noticeably after 4 days, so ramped up to 67 for a D rest. Will leave it there for another week before kegging and fining.
Thanks to Marshall and the guys for the warm fermented lager experiment, I might be making more lagers if this works out.
Fermentation slowed noticeably after 4 days, so ramped up to 67 for a D rest. Will leave it there for another week before kegging and fining.
Thanks to Marshall and the guys for the warm fermented lager experiment, I might be making more lagers if this works out.
