Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[triethylborane]

The wlp800 marzen is stellar. This beer is delicious and I would consider using this yeast again. Too often my lhbs is out of 34/70 so I need a second choice. Maybe will try the mj next.

I assume you mean WLP820?

Planning on a rauchbier but fermented at ambient temps in my basement. Right now the lowest spot is showing 57f. We had a few cold stretches, but this has been a warm winter - without the snow, which usually is abundant during warmer winters.

I would certainly appreciate comments etc on the recipe. I love malty marzens like Hofbrau Oktoberfestbier and the Paulaner/HP marzens, but want to get that smoke like a Schlenkerla. Maybe as if Ayinger had a smoked Oktoberfest Marzen.

It looks like the smoked malt drives up the FG and I dont want a malt bomb so I dropped the mash temp to 151f to drop the FG a bit.

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Oktoberfest/Märzen
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.044
Efficiency: 65% (brew house)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.060
Final Gravity: 1.017
ABV (standard): 5.56%
IBU (tinseth): 21.99
SRM (morey): 13.71

FERMENTABLES:
10 lb - German - Smoked Malt (73%)
0.2 lb - German - Carafa II (1.5%)
3 lb - German - Vienna (21.9%)
0.5 lb - German - Melanoidin (3.6%)

HOPS:
1 oz - Hallertau Mittelfruh, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.75, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 13.69
1 oz - Hallertau Mittelfruh, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.75, Use: Boil for 20 min, IBU: 8.29

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Sparge, Temp: 151 F, Time: 90 min
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.5 qt/lb

YEAST:
White Labs - Oktoberfest/Märzen Lager Yeast WLP820
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 69%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 52 - 58 F
Fermentation Temp: 58 F
Pitch Rate: 1.5 (M cells / ml / deg P)

NOTES:
Cold crash + gelatin after FG range achieved.

2 tsp gelatin in 75f water, sit for 20min, then microwave until clear.

 

[applescrap]

^^looks good, but I am not familiar with all grain malt bills for marzen, I trust you on that more than me. I would say you might want to lower the ibus for a more malty taste. Maybe to 17 or 18, idk? Thoughts?

 

[Nebraskan]

you all know that WLP800 is actually an Ale yeast? This is from DNA profiling recently done in Australia.

 

[cmac62]

Triethy I don't know if the smoked malt is a base malt or not. I have always used it more as a secondary with a lot less.

 

[Rhaop]

Pitched rehydrated M54 into 5 gallons of 1.055 wort, it’s been around 36 hours no airlock activity, anyone else experience slow start with that yeast?


Edit 62* F

 

[Miraculix]

Pitched rehydrated M54 into 5 gallons of 1.055 wort, it’s been around 36 hours no airlock activity, anyone else experience slow start with that yeast?


Edit 62* F

All mangrove Jack's yeast seem to be really slow starting yeasts. I rehydrated mine, made a double starter and pitched, guess that's the safe way. According to the internet it takes up to a few days till it takes off for some.

 

[Miraculix]

you all know that WLP800 is actually an Ale yeast? This is from DNA profiling recently done in Australia.

Yep, @Northern_Brewer brought this topic up in another thread I think. As beer fermented with 800 apparently tastes like lager, it would be fun to see if it stays that way when fermented at ale temperature.

 

[yourlastchance89]

Sorry let me clarify, I plan on making a lot of warm fermented lagers and there are others that do as well. That thread is an open forum for debating fermentation temperature control. This thread, I would like to be a place for those of us who do this technique or are considering doing this and want to discuss that. The other thread is for stating opinions on if it should be done. This thread is for "I get it done this way" or how "do i do this."

Applescrap I've only read the last few pages and the first. What is the general consensus/success for the people who have tried this and with what strains?

 

[Rhaop]

All mangrove Jack's yeast seem to be really slow starting yeasts. I rehydrated mine, made a double starter and pitched, guess that's the safe way. According to the internet it takes up to a few days till it takes off for some.

Yeah that’s what I’ve seen as well, if I don’t see activity tomorrow after work (60+ hrs post pitch) I will rehydrate a pack of s-05 if I find the gravity hasn’t dropped

 

[Miraculix]

Yeah that’s what I’ve seen as well, if I don’t see activity tomorrow after work (60+ hrs post pitch) I will rehydrate a pack of s-05 if I find the gravity hasn’t dropped

You're a patient man. I would have panicked after 48 hours without anything and already pitched the 05,which wouldn't be the wisest idea probably. I hope you will find some activity tomorrow.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

All mangrove Jack's yeast seem to be really slow starting yeasts. I rehydrated mine, made a double starter and pitched, guess that's the safe way. According to the internet it takes up to a few days till it takes off for some.

OTOH M36 always seems to get away pretty quickly for me - I checked in on my latest split batch after 21h and the fag-end of an open M36 packet pitched dry had a decent krausen on it like WLP030 pitched from the tube, WLP4000 had almost covered the surface in the beginnings of a krausen and WLP515 (BRY-97 relative) was showing almost nothing. So quicker than some liquid yeasts, for sure.

@yourlastchance89 - 34/70, S-189 and the various California common yeasts are safe places to start.

 

[Rhaop]

You're a patient man. I would have panicked after 48 hours without anything and already pitched the 05,which wouldn't be the wisest idea probably. I hope you will find some activity tomorrow.

I haven’t quite hit the 48 hr mark yet, noon today was 36 so it’s getting close

 

[triethylborane]

you all know that WLP800 is actually an Ale yeast? This is from DNA profiling recently done in Australia.

Beer snobs on suicide watch.

 

[triethylborane]

Triethy I don't know if the smoked malt is a base malt or not. I have always used it more as a secondary with a lot less.

From what I have researched, using smoked malt v non smoked malt as a base depends on whether

1. storage time at LBHS, longer shelf time reduces smoke, some recommend smoke malt usage up to 100% for a schlenkerla marzen smoke level, even then 100% might not reach the level of smoke

2. smoking malt at the casa with a smoker, use less smoke malt starting at about 30%

Of course this hinges upon the level of smoke desired. I could session schlenkerla marzens so I like the smoke. I think If I went with home smoked malt, I would start at 50% and see how I like it. If it comes out malty with less smoke, well just try it again.

Have you found that smoke increases with age?

 

[Rhaop]

@Miraculix this morning before work, no activity, popped the lid nothing on the surface so i went ahead and sprinkled s-05 directly on, roughly 54 hours post pitch of the m54, i am disappointed


Edit: i also had placed the bucket near a heater to raise the temp from 63/64 to 68/69

 

[Miraculix]

You could have rehydrated the us05 at least to increase the cell count, but it should do the job.

The Internet basically seems to be devided, half of the people love mj yeast, the other half hates it. My personal guess is that their yeast might suffer during transportation and so they end up with a limited cell count. But that's only my idea... After a starter my m44 did go through the roof.

And don't be disappointed, you will have beer!

 

[Rhaop]

You could have rehydrated the us05 at least to increase the cell count, but it should do the job.

The Internet basically seems to be devided, half of the people love mj yeast, the other half hates it. My personal guess is that their yeast might suffer during transportation and so they end up with a limited cell count. But that's only my idea... After a starter my m44 did go through the roof.

And don't be disappointed, you will have beer!

I was already late for work so i just direct pitched, the stout I brewed I rehydrated s-05 it was plugging away at about 24hrs post pitch

My disappointment is really with the yeast not my situation, my post boil sanitation was good I wasn’t sweating an infection I just rather not wait another 24 hours, my back basement area stays in the low 60’s in the winter so it would be ideal for pseudo lagers, just wished the m54 would have been a quicker starter it’s half the price of white labs

 

[Miraculix]

Yes that sucks... People's experiences completely differ with this yeast, sorry to hear that yours happen to be on the bad side. I will use either multiple packs or make a starter with it when I try this one. I don't care so much about the price, I just really want it to work reliably.

 

[Rhaop]

Instead of multiple packs i could just buy a liquid yeast pack, and make a quick viability starter for just about the same cost, just alittle more time you know?

I’ve used the m20 hefe and the m02 cider yeast with great results

 

[cmac62]

From what I have researched, using smoked malt v non smoked malt as a base depends on whether

1. storage time at LBHS, longer shelf time reduces smoke, some recommend smoke malt usage up to 100% for a schlenkerla marzen smoke level, even then 100% might not reach the level of smoke

2. smoking malt at the casa with a smoker, use less smoke malt starting at about 30%

Of course this hinges upon the level of smoke desired. I could session schlenkerla marzens so I like the smoke. I think If I went with home smoked malt, I would start at 50% and see how I like it. If it comes out malty with less smoke, well just try it again.

Have you found that smoke increases with age?

thanks for the info. I will have to try a smoked beer one of these days.

 

[Nebraskan]

I tried smoking malt... harsh... went back to weed.

 

[applescrap]

Applescrap I've only read the last few pages and the first. What is the general consensus/success for the people who have tried this and with what strains?

General consensus has overall been fairly positive. I don't want to crack into a debate on this thread so I'm going to stop here. There is another thread started by yours truly that really digs deep into this subject if you would like to learn more. 34/ 70 is a really good yeast to start with for this. I hope you give it a try and post your results here.

 

[cmac62]

With all of this talk of smoked malt I'm thinking of making a cold smoker to smoke some malt in. I may have to start a new thread.

 

[TheHopfather]

FG 1.010
Cold crashed 3 days and kegged using closed transfer
Hit it with gelatin in the keg when kegging.

Just curious how you are adding the gelatin in a closed transfer? I've been scratching my head over this one and haven't come up with a decent, oxygen free method.

 

[waldoar15]

 

[eric19312]

Just curious how you are adding the gelatin in a closed transfer? I've been scratching my head over this one and haven't come up with a decent, oxygen free method.

I fill keg with star san and push out the star san with CO2. I push the beer into the keg with CO2 on the fermenter venting CO2 in the keg. Then I get the keg cold under CO2 pressure. Then I OPEN the keg... pour in my gelatin ... close the keg and vent the keg head space about 15 times with 20 psi or so. Because I am only venting the head space its not so much CO2 to do a through purge.

 

[FelixGER]

Just curious how you are adding the gelatin in a closed transfer? I've been scratching my head over this one and haven't come up with a decent, oxygen free method.

Do you use Soda Kegs? If yes, there is a method.

 

[TheHopfather]

I fill keg with star san and push out the star san with CO2. I push the beer into the keg with CO2 on the fermenter venting CO2 in the keg. Then I get the keg cold under CO2 pressure. Then I OPEN the keg... pour in my gelatin ... close the keg and vent the keg head space about 15 times with 20 psi or so. Because I am only venting the head space its not so much CO2 to do a through purge.

Ah, okay. So not a true closed transfer. I was thinking something more along the lines of injecting the gelatin into the keg through one of the posts.

Do you use Soda Kegs? If yes, there is a method.

Soda keg, as in a standard corny keg? Yes I use corny's, what is your method?

 

[Nebraskan]

I fill keg with star san and push out the star san with CO2. I push the beer into the keg with CO2 on the fermenter venting CO2 in the keg.

That's a lot of Star San! I clean my kegs (3gal) and rinse, then add about 2 cups of diluted Star San to one keg, roll around and invert a few times. Then open the lid and pour "that" Star San into the next keg and do the same. When done I just attach the CO2 line to the "IN" side and while the pop valve is up, add some CO2. Kegs are now pretty clean inside, sanitary, and have CO2 in the space ready to receive the fermented beer.

First post of Apples crap: Why use Cascade hops on a Munich Dunkel? I would think Hallertau would be preferred.

 

[TheHopfather]

That's a lot of Star San!

Purging kegs of oxygen by pushing out a full keg of StarSan is pretty standard practice on these forums these days. Anything less and you are introducing a lot of oxygen to your beer when you rack to the keg.

I just push the StarSan from one keg to the next keg in line. It continually gets recycled into a new keg, it'll last for months before I dump it and make a fresh solution to use. I'd argue I'm using less StarSan using this method compared to mixing up a batch each time I want to sanitize a keg. It does use up a bunch of CO2 though.

 

[azmark]

you all know that WLP800 is actually an Ale yeast? This is from DNA profiling recently done in Australia.

Seems 34/70 is also cerevisiae.

 

[bradleypariah]

I'm extremely new to lager, and my basement is 58° F (about 15° C).
I decided to make a Sam Adams Black Lager clone and I'm going to make an Anchor Steam clone later this week. I figure Sam Adams doesn't use California Common yeast for their Black Lager, but I wanted to try it out.

So I ended up making those beers. I'm not sure my results are going to be helpful, because taste is subjective, and I kinda did the opposite of the topic, but I'm sharing in case anyone finds it interesting. I chose a lager yeast (CrossMyLoof California Common) that's supposed to be fermented warm, but I ended up fermenting it cold because I have no means of warming my glass carboys downstairs.

For what it's worth, I really liked the Black Lager. I shared it at my homebrew club, and more than one person asked for seconds. It looked black as midnight, but the mouthfeel was that of a light German lager. Exactly what I wanted.

According to Wyeast, lager should be fermented at 48-58° F, but according to CrossMyLoof, their Cali Common strain should be fermented at 59-72° F. Well, I fermented at 56 °F for three weeks and just went straight to keg. I didn't raise the temp for a diacetyl rest, and I don't think it needed it. The beer's already gone if that's any indication. (I made a pumpkin beer a month or two before that, and I still have half the keg.)

The traditional California Common beer is still fermenting in the basement. Last time I checked it was 59° F down there, so I'm not really pushing any boundaries with that batch.

If you have access to CML's range of yeast (I'm in the UK so easy to get and cheap. I' not so sure about the US), their Kolsch yeast fermented at your basement temp of 15C gives execellent results

I've been watching this thread, and I'm feeling confident that I can just use whatever yeast I wish this coming summer, which is good because I'm enjoying the more quaffable nature of lagers at the moment. I plan to do a twist on Henry Weinhard's Private Reserve within the coming weeks. I'm going to use the CML Kolsh and ferment it at whatever temp my basement is.

 

[Upthewazzu]

Brewed up an IPL a few weeks back with liquid 34/70 and fermented at ~60°F for 3 weeks, before sticking the fermenter in my garage to "crash" the beer to ~ 45°F for a few days. At that temp, it was crystal clear going into the keg (I did not use gelatin this time). After a day of force carbing @ 30psi, it was a hazy mess! Although I'm not bothered by the haze. However, I was surprised by the muted hop character given that it should have been roughly 50 IBU. Even my non-IPA drinking buddy thought it was very good and did not exhibit any hop bitterness. My IBU tongue-tester says its probably in the neighborhood of 30-35 IBU's. Otherwise, it's a damn good beer for being so green. I'm probably going to leave it be for 2 weeks before I take another pull (ok, that's probably a lie...).

I just wanted to follow up on this and say that this beer is fan-freaking-tastic. Possibly one of the best I've ever made. The 5 gallon keg is just about kicked after only one weekend. It also cleared up considerable after only 1 week in the keg. I will definitely be trying more IPL/PL's using this strain at ~60°.

 

[Nebraskan]

Purging kegs of oxygen by pushing out a full keg of StarSan is pretty standard practice on these forums these days. Anything less and you are introducing a lot of oxygen to your beer when you rack to the keg.

I just push the StarSan from one keg to the next keg in line. It continually gets recycled into a new keg, it'll last for months before I dump it and make a fresh solution to use. I'd argue I'm using less StarSan using this method compared to mixing up a batch each time I want to sanitize a keg. It does use up a bunch of CO2 though.

I work at a winery in Michigan and we "gas" the tanks with CO2 before we move wine into it. We don't fill a 5200 gallon tank with CO2, but do hook up a CO2 line to the side valve, start the CO2 and when it's running in at around 15 psi (through a quick connects - tri-clover with a corresponding end to go on to the line in air chuck) we start the CO2 and then shut the bottom valve. Then after about 5 or so minutes shut off the CO2. CO2 is heavier than air and settles in the bottoms of the tank, so when we start moving wine in there, through the bottom valve, the wine level moves the CO2 up in the tank and finally out the top, or if not filled completely, it pushes out the CO2 but forms a blanket of CO2 over the wine.

With kegging, if you purge your kegs with CO2 with the "IN" side for about 20 seconds, leaving the pressure release valve up (or the tank lid loose) and disconnect the "IN" side CO2 line your keg has CO2 in it. If you fill your keg like I do, using a tube that goes to the bottom of the keg, and fill from the bottom up, I rest assured that I am not introducing oxygen into my beer. Plus, it saves a lot on Star San and CO2. I think you could even purge a keg with a Soda Stream and tube in a pinch.

Here is the thing that I don't think a lot of your realize is that right after fermentation, the liquid has a lot of dissolved CO2 already in it. When we ferment a wine or cider and centrifuge into a tank, that tank is not purged with CO2 - for that operation. The wine will be disturbed and release an enormous amount of CO2 during the centrifuge - to - tank operation. It is prevalent in ALL fermented products; wine, cider, and beer. When I run a test for TA (Total Acids) and titrate with 0.1N NaOH I have to put my 10 ml of sample that I have in a special vacuum jar and remove the CO2 out of the wine/cider so it does not affect the test, IE give a false higher reading than it would otherwise. I don't do this on juice as there is no CO2 in juice, but even if we suspect that our juice may have started fermenting just a little bit before I get a chance to test it, it HAS TO BE vacuumed to get rid of the dissolved CO2. In other words, your beer already has CO2 in it before you put it in the keg, and would have to give up the CO2 to be able to absorb any O2.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Seems 34/70 is also cerevisiae.

No - it's a cerevisiae x eubayanus hybrid, the archetypal Frohberg-group hybrid. But Frohberg do have more cerevisiae DNA than the Saaz group of hybrids.

I'm feeling confident that I can just use whatever yeast I wish this coming summer

Personally I wouldn't be that confident - I think where we are at the moment is that most but not all Frohbergs and no Saaz are suitable for warm-ferments, but that's not certain.

 

[cmac62]

I work at a winery in Michigan and we "gas" the tanks with CO2 before we move wine into it. We don't fill a 5200 gallon tank with CO2, but do hook up a CO2 line to the side valve, start the CO2 and when it's running in at around 15 psi (through a quick connects - tri-clover with a corresponding end to go on to the line in air chuck) we start the CO2 and then shut the bottom valve. Then after about 5 or so minutes shut off the CO2. CO2 is heavier than air and settles in the bottoms of the tank, so when we start moving wine in there, through the bottom valve, the wine level moves the CO2 up in the tank and finally out the top, or if not filled completely, it pushes out the CO2 but forms a blanket of CO2 over the wine.

With kegging, if you purge your kegs with CO2 with the "IN" side for about 20 seconds, leaving the pressure release valve up (or the tank lid loose) and disconnect the "IN" side CO2 line your keg has CO2 in it. If you fill your keg like I do, using a tube that goes to the bottom of the keg, and fill from the bottom up, I rest assured that I am not introducing oxygen into my beer. Plus, it saves a lot on Star San and CO2. I think you could even purge a keg with a Soda Stream and tube in a pinch.

Here is the thing that I don't think a lot of your realize is that right after fermentation, the liquid has a lot of dissolved CO2 already in it. When we ferment a wine or cider and centrifuge into a tank, that tank is not purged with CO2 - for that operation. The wine will be disturbed and release an enormous amount of CO2 during the centrifuge - to - tank operation. It is prevalent in ALL fermented products; wine, cider, and beer. When I run a test for TA (Total Acids) and titrate with 0.1N NaOH I have to put my 10 ml of sample that I have in a special vacuum jar and remove the CO2 out of the wine/cider so it does not affect the test, IE give a false higher reading than it would otherwise. I don't do this on juice as there is no CO2 in juice, but even if we suspect that our juice may have started fermenting just a little bit before I get a chance to test it, it HAS TO BE vacuumed to get rid of the dissolved CO2. In other words, your beer already has CO2 in it before you put it in the keg, and would have to give up the CO2 to be able to absorb any O2.

Thanks for the long note, but it does make sense that the beer going into the keg would have to give up some of the CO2 to take in the O2.

 

[MaryB]

I use a small oil less air compressor for keg cleaning. It has a water/oil trap on the line so the air is clean. Fill keg(I do it lid off with a hose into the keg. Then purge the head space only with CO2 before I seal the lid down. In the 2 minutes or so it takes to fill a keg the beer is not going to soak up that much o2!

Purging kegs of oxygen by pushing out a full keg of StarSan is pretty standard practice on these forums these days. Anything less and you are introducing a lot of oxygen to your beer when you rack to the keg.

I just push the StarSan from one keg to the next keg in line. It continually gets recycled into a new keg, it'll last for months before I dump it and make a fresh solution to use. I'd argue I'm using less StarSan using this method compared to mixing up a batch each time I want to sanitize a keg. It does use up a bunch of CO2 though.

 

[seabrew8]

I just looked up 34/70 and fermentis states its high flocculation? No sure if its been mentioned. Most of my batches have been crystal clear. The ones that were not was sugar primed in the keg.

 

[STMF]

CO2 is heavier than air and settles in the bottoms of the tank, so when we start moving wine in there, through the bottom valve, the wine level moves the CO2 up in the tank and finally out the top, or if not filled completely, it pushes out the CO2 but forms a blanket of CO2 over the wine.

With kegging, if you purge your kegs with CO2 with the "IN" side for about 20 seconds, leaving the pressure release valve up (or the tank lid loose) and disconnect the "IN" side CO2 line your keg has CO2 in it. If you fill your keg like I do, using a tube that goes to the bottom of the keg, and fill from the bottom up, I rest assured that I am not introducing oxygen into my beer.

It is a nice and convenient theory but unfortunatly it is not true in reality.

There is no "CO2-blanket". It is a myth. Gases mix.

 

[applescrap]

There is a lodo no oxy thread for this. Would anyone be opposed if I asked a mod to move the no oxygen discussion there?