Warm Fermented Lager Thread

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I posted this on the ingredients/ recipes forum but I love this thread and looking for ideas so here goes...

So my new homebrew club is having an Iron Brew competition. I know, most of the time you have to come up with something on the spot and brew on the fly. We get a little time to work on it! I have some ideas, but I'd love to hear from the homebrewtalk crowd So here's what I have to work with...

Cacao nibs
1# midnight wheat
1# dingemans cara 45
1# briess caramel 90
I think I get about 10# of 2-row...haven't picked that up yet
Here's where it gets interesting
1oz Citra 12.3 (YHC)
All the rest are locally grown, no clue about %. I'm using the Beersmith #s
3oz Cascade
2oz Chinook
1oz Nugget

I'm planning on making a tincture w/ the cacao following the Beechum method https://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/cacao-nib-extract-drew-way

Thoughts?
 
^^wish I had those skills. I use recipes, but taste all the grains. Maybe do a 2.5g batch barelywine. Get good efficiency and then boil down forever. Maybe a belgian abbey?
 
I thought about a big, strong beer but it has to be ready to judge in a month. I don't think a Baltic Porter or barleywine would be ready in time.
 
Ok, Here's my contribution. I posted this story on the Beginner Brewing Forums as well.

On Dec 6th 2017, I made a Pilsner, and used saflager s23. I did not make a starter. Instead I used 2 packages of dry yeast. I did not rehydrate them. I have a fermentation chamber, which is a fridge, a reptile heating wire and an ink bird temp controller. I had just recently unplugged and cleaned out my temperature controlled ferm chamber,

I got the wort down to 12C (53F), plugged my fridge and the reptile heat thing into my temp controller (set to 10C (50F) ), pitch the yeast and start fermenting. On Dec 8th I go down to check on the beer for the first time and I can hear it bubbling like crazy through the fridge door. I open the door and can feel the HEAT. Uh oh.. i Check the temp controller and its showing 34C (93F)!!? I was flabbergasted, what the hell??? It turns out I had the heater and fridge in the wrong outlets of the ink bird. So the whole time it was trying to cool my beer it was increasing the heat. 34C(93F)!!!! Crap.

I immediately reverse the plugs and the fridge kicks in. Several hours later the wort is at 10C. The yeast was still active - kinda - but not like it was....

A week later my curiosity got the better of me and I took a sample. I told my wife it was to test the gravity, but I knew better... I needed to taste what I was in for. I took the gravity and it was 1.016. I think the target is around 1.013, so it's close. Then I tasted it, expecting the worst. I have never been good at tasting unfinished beer. I tried it, and honestly it was ok. Definitely not super clean, but not unpleasant. I could smell a bit of egg, which I understand is a normal smell early on in lager yeast. I was surprised to smell it though, as my yeast was certainly not being treated as a lager :)

That's it for the story so far. The story lacks a conclusion at this time... I will post more as this saga unfolds.
 
I did a side by side with S-23 last summer and while both are fully drinkable; the difference is notable. nothing I'm going to repeat if I can avoid it (and it was only 20C room temperature for the warm one)
I plan on one more batch (most likely Maerzen) with a different yeast and if the split batches are not turning out really close, it will be the last excursion regarding warm fermented lagers.
 
I just took my first sample of a lager I brewed with Mangrove Jack's California Lager dry yeast. Nothing bad to say really. Attenuation 76%, fermentation was done at 18c. No lagering period, brewed it like an ale. Bottled after two weeks and after another two weeks of conditioning I took my first sample. It's already surprisingly clean and crisp tasting.

Might not be using it again, though. Not because I wouldn't like it but can't really see why I would use this rather than Safale 05, for example. I'm pretty sure I would prefer any beer style brewed with a neutral ale strain over this lager strain.

It's a decent yeast but not sure why I would use it in the future. The beer came out really nice, but still.
 
You say it's clean, beer came out nice, but wouldn't use it again. I'm curious why not. What do you think would be different if you'd brewed this with 05? Is there something you don't like about the flavors from this yeast?
 
I'm obviously just guesstimating but I have a feeling it mutes the hops just a hair more than a neutral ale strain would. Also, either the conditioning isn't quite done or it will leave a slight yeast character to the aftertaste. It's hard to describe, kinda sweet. I'll report back after sampling more.

One thing I should mention is the clarity. Can't really say anything about it, since my beer is sort of a hazy cream ale/lager hybrid something. Wouldn't count on it making a see-through clear lager, even if cold conditioned before bottling.

This would certainly make for a great split batch experiment..
 
eetu said:
I'm obviously just guesstimating but I have a feeling it mutes the hops just a hair more than a neutral ale strain would. Also, either the conditioning isn't quite done or it will leave a slight yeast character to the aftertaste. It's hard to describe, kinda sweet. I'll report back after sampling more.

One thing I should mention is the clarity. Can't really say anything about it, since my beer is sort of a hazy cream ale/lager hybrid something. Wouldn't count on it making a see-through clear lager, even if cold conditioned before bottling.

This would certainly make for a great split batch experiment..
Click to expand...

It will clear if you lager it. Basically lagering is an extended cold crash and everything will drop out eventually. I have a peach Hef on tap that I didn't have room for in the keggerator so I put it in my ferm fridge at about 35f and after a month or so it sure doesn't look like a wheat beer. It is not perfectly clear, but way clearer than most Hefs Ive had. :mug:
 
Howdy. So I did the warm W34/70. Warm being pitch and hold at 60°F +/-1° for 10 days, allow sit at ambient 65°-68° 10 more days, sit in cold space for 4 weeks at temps between 27° and 40°.

It is, in a word, peachy. Not in a good way. Like I dumped peach extract in it. Normal? Should I have kept at 60° for a couple, two, tree weeks?

Recipe from @bwarbiany :
4.25# Munich
2.75# Bel Pilsen
2.75# Vienna
Mash 155 for 75m boil 60m, 5.0 gal into fermenter, BIAB, 1.051OG 1.013FG
 
Just tapped my La Bici Vienna lager clone and it's pretty damn good! It's a little fruity but not over the top at all. Perhaps a little more ester character than a cold fermented lager but much more restrained than a typical ale. Being a big ale fan exploring the world of lagers it's perfect for me!
 
my last experiment using lager yeast for warm fermentation was certainly my very last one.
I've done split batches of light blondes before and the warm fermented beer was not as clean as the cold fermented portion, but still drinkable.
This time I tried a bock with W206. Based on previous experience, I might have been a bit biased and split only a small portion off and there was more trub in the warm fermented portion (which might impact esters), but the actual result surprised me: the amount of fusel alcohols in the warm fermented beer was completely overwhelming (i.e. not drinkable IMHO). Fortunately and in stark contrast, the cold fermented (9C) portion turned out really good! My personal take away message from this last one is that I will not bother with warm fermented lagers (especially high gravity ones) ever again. If I don't have cold storage space (or its winter anyway), I will not brew a lager.
 
Otoh...The last of my warm fermented marzen has been in the fridge out back for a few months now. Its awesome and has only gotten better. It seems true that aging lagers can really help them become better.
 
chris000 said:
my last experiment using lager yeast for warm fermentation was certainly my very last one.
I've done split batches of light blondes before and the warm fermented beer was not as clean as the cold fermented portion, but still drinkable.
This time I tried a bock with W206. Based on previous experience, I might have been a bit biased and split only a small portion off and there was more trub in the warm fermented portion (which might impact esters), but the actual result surprised me: the amount of fusel alcohols in the warm fermented beer was completely overwhelming (i.e. not drinkable IMHO). Fortunately and in stark contrast, the cold fermented (9C) portion turned out really good! My personal take away message from this last one is that I will not bother with warm fermented lagers (especially high gravity ones) ever again. If I don't have cold storage space (or its winter anyway), I will not brew a lager.
Click to expand...

Well, the key to succesfully ferment a lager warm is using the right yeast, which you did not. Use the right yeast and you will have good results warm.
 
We have found out about three different Lager yeast strains which seem to work when fermented warm. One is the already mentioned 34/70 with poor flocculation, another one is mangrove jacks m54 which is supposed to have superior flocculation to 34/70 and I do not remember the third. But it is all written in this thread, have a look for yourself.
 
I guess I'm not the only one to find out that it isn't a good choice:
An old source describes it as follows:
Wyeast 2206 GF Bavarian Lager A Carlsberg type yeast and most widely used lager strain in the world. Produces a distinct malty profile with some ester character with a crisp finish. Will ferment in the 45-55° F range for various beer styles. Benefits from diacetyl rest at 58° F (14° C) for 24 hours after fermentation is complete. Also used for pseudo-ale production with fermentations at 75° F, (24° C) which eliminates sulfur production​
Whereas Wyeast currently only writes on their homepage:
STRAIN: ​
2206
BAVARIAN LAGER ™
Used by many German breweries to produce rich, full-bodied, malty beers, this strain is a good choice for bocks and doppelbocks. A thorough diacetyl rest is recommended after fermentation is complete.

I even made sure I run it through 3 generations of starters, because 206 some sources state that the first generations aren't that great. Anyway, my bock (the cold fermented one) turned out great and I didn't waste much wort for the experiment.
Anyway, I thought I share what I came across and despite some sources, W206/WLP820/2206 might not be a good choice (but it could also just be the higher gravity that made it more obvious)
 
eric19312 said:
OK my first warm fermented lager is fermenting. It is also first lager I've tried brewing since 2012.

Bru'n water profile for PseudoBohPils
malt 90/10 2-row/munich
mashed at 148F 75 min with a mashout
Hallertauer Mittelfrueh with 2oz additions at 60/30/20/10 min for total 23 ibu
OG 1.054
16.5 gallons into fermentor
3 packs 34/70 hydrated
1 minute O2
Fermenting at 66F had bubbles in my blowoff tube at 12 hours

If this comes out well I'm thinking to use the cake for a big baltic porter in a couple weeks.
Click to expand...


Well after one try I'm not convinced.

Brewed on 11-19-17
Fermented in mid 60s for 12 days

upload_2018-1-8_15-35-41.png


FG 1.010
Cold crashed 3 days and kegged using closed transfer
Hit it with gelatin in the keg when kegging.
After 5 weeks in the keg I am pouring this

upload_2018-1-8_15-29-37.png


Tastes decent...my eyes are telling my brain to say it tastes like a yeasty lager. Blindfolded it is actually quite good and I'd be pretty happy if it was supposed to be an American Wheat beer but pretty disappointed in it visually as a lager.

I've cleaned a keg already and do see some yeast at the bottom of the keg. My thinking is that perhaps the yeast is falling out of suspension but it is not compacting on the bottom and even the slight suction of the pour is enough to disturb it and pull a cloud of yeast into the pour.

Not sure where I go from here, I decided to brew a nice oatmeal stout using a blend of US05 and Irish Ale yeast instead of that Baltic Porter while I consider.
 
eric19312 said:
Well after one try I'm not convinced.

Brewed on 11-19-17
Fermented in mid 60s for 12 days

View attachment 552992

FG 1.010
Cold crashed 3 days and kegged using closed transfer
Hit it with gelatin in the keg when kegging.
After 5 weeks in the keg I am pouring this

View attachment 552991

Tastes decent...my eyes are telling my brain to say it tastes like a yeasty lager. Blindfolded it is actually quite good and I'd be pretty happy if it was supposed to be an American Wheat beer but pretty disappointed in it visually as a lager.

I've cleaned a keg already and do see some yeast at the bottom of the keg. My thinking is that perhaps the yeast is falling out of suspension but it is not compacting on the bottom and even the slight suction of the pour is enough to disturb it and pull a cloud of yeast into the pour.

Not sure where I go from here, I decided to brew a nice oatmeal stout using a blend of US05 and Irish Ale yeast instead of that Baltic Porter while I consider.
Click to expand...
Di you use 34/70? I had the same problem with it, the beer needed weeks in the cold for the yeast to drop, but then it dropped clear. I heard the mangrove jack m54 should flocc better, will try this one next.
 
I had some similar experiences with clearing. I have had much better luck with 3 day cold crash, then gelatin and very careful transfer. I cut my dip tube a little up on one keg, not sure if that mattered. If the yeast gets tossed into suspension it likes to stay it seems. Imo, whether warm or cold fermented, time is cited as helping make them better. I need to focus on styles I like more. I really liked my first warm ferment, a dunkel maybe it was, and I really like double bock. I also really like bitter pilsners. The malty lagers are not for me at all.
 
Fully agree with you. Those malty and sweet lagers are brrrrrrr..... Sweet. Not my taste!

Although I like a good and dry schwarzbier like köstritzer. Basically containing Pilsener, Munich, carafa 2 or 3 and ibus around 30. It is quite malty but on the dry side,which is nice. Pretty sure you would enjoy it as well. I will brew this soon.

I will use the california Lager for it.

I also forgot a bit to think about what I actually really like to drink... I have a storage full of experimental stuff and nearly nothing I really enjoy :D
 
Miraculix said:
I do not remember the third.
Click to expand...

Fermentis S-189 (supposedly the same as WLP885). More generally, one might generalise to say that most of the Frohberg-group lager yeasts (ie the German ones) may well work, as they are hybrids with more ale genome in them, whereas I would assume that Saaz-group yeasts (Czech and Carlsberg) would work less well. OTOH, W-204 has a bit of a reputation for being more estery than others at low temperatures, so you might expect it to be not ideal at warmer temperatures. But the Californian lager yeasts are obvious contenders as well, I assume they're derived from Frohbergs. One left-field suggestion that probably won't work but might be worth trying is WLP800 Pilsner, which isn't actually a lager yeast at all.

As for the peachy thing - that brings to mind US-05 versus liquid Chicos. There seems to be something about the way they're grown for drying (which is rather different to how liquid yeasts are made) that predisposes US-05 to go peachy in its first generation if it's grown too warm or too cold (relative to normal ale temperatures). I don't know the ins and outs of it, but this could be the same thing, so going to a second generation of dry yeast or using the liquid versions WLP830/2124 could help on this front. Dry-hopping may also contribute more substrates like linalool that will contribute to the esteriness. And different temperatures may help - it could be that you were actually still too cold. Also temperature variations, even quite small ones, are known to contribute to ester development - one might get fewer esters at a steady 68F than at a fluctuating 60-66F for instance.
 
Northern_Brewer said:
Fermentis S-189 (supposedly the same as WLP885). More generally, one might generalise to say that most of the Frohberg-group lager yeasts (ie the German ones) may well work, as they are hybrids with more ale genome in them, whereas I would assume that Saaz-group yeasts (Czech and Carlsberg) would work less well. OTOH, W-204 has a bit of a reputation for being more estery than others at low temperatures, so you might expect it to be not ideal at warmer temperatures. But the Californian lager yeasts are obvious contenders as well, I assume they're derived from Frohbergs. One left-field suggestion that probably won't work but might be worth trying is WLP800 Pilsner, which isn't actually a lager yeast at all.

As for the peachy thing - that brings to mind US-05 versus liquid Chicos. There seems to be something about the way they're grown for drying (which is rather different to how liquid yeasts are made) that predisposes US-05 to go peachy in its first generation if it's grown too warm or too cold (relative to normal ale temperatures). I don't know the ins and outs of it, but this could be the same thing, so going to a second generation of dry yeast or using the liquid versions WLP830/2124 could help on this front. Dry-hopping may also contribute more substrates like linalool that will contribute to the esteriness. And different temperatures may help - it could be that you were actually still too cold. Also temperature variations, even quite small ones, are known to contribute to ester development - one might get fewer esters at a steady 68F than at a fluctuating 60-66F for instance.
Click to expand...

Regarding wlp800, just found this :
http://brulosophy.com/2015/06/22/fermentation-temperature-pt-3-lager-yeast-exbeeriment-results/

As the strain is labelled as med to high flocc, I have hope that this strain might be the go to strain for warm lager, if one wants to omit the torture of non clearing 34 70. Will try it in my next lager instead of the mj one.
 
Last edited:
Miraculix said:
Di you use 34/70? I had the same problem with it, the beer needed weeks in the cold for the yeast to drop, but then it dropped clear. I heard the mangrove jack m54 should flocc better, will try this one next.
Click to expand...
Yes it was 34/70. Interested in your results with the m54.

applescrap said:
I had some similar experiences with clearing. I have had much better luck with 3 day cold crash, then gelatin and very careful transfer. I cut my dip tube a little up on one keg, not sure if that mattered. If the yeast gets tossed into suspension it likes to stay it seems. Imo, whether warm or cold fermented, time is cited as helping make them better.
Click to expand...
My issue may be with not being able to cold crash cold enough. My old fermentation fridge will only get the beer down to about 38. I listened to a podcast with Charlie Banforth where he was talking about the value of cold crashing at below 32F -- perhaps 30-30.5F (the alcohol prevents from freezing). When I say I cold crashed for 3 days it was at least one day getting from 66 to 38 then two days at that temperature. That is also my keezer temperature and this beer didn't properly lager...I just put it in the keezer on gas. Still 5 weeks stored cold I was expecting some clarity.
 
Brewed up an IPL a few weeks back with liquid 34/70 and fermented at ~60°F for 3 weeks, before sticking the fermenter in my garage to "crash" the beer to ~ 45°F for a few days. At that temp, it was crystal clear going into the keg (I did not use gelatin this time). After a day of force carbing @ 30psi, it was a hazy mess! Although I'm not bothered by the haze. However, I was surprised by the muted hop character given that it should have been roughly 50 IBU. Even my non-IPA drinking buddy thought it was very good and did not exhibit any hop bitterness. My IBU tongue-tester says its probably in the neighborhood of 30-35 IBU's. Otherwise, it's a damn good beer for being so green. I'm probably going to leave it be for 2 weeks before I take another pull (ok, that's probably a lie...).
 
balrog said:
Thanks. Which did you use? Wyeast or WLP?
Click to expand...

Wyeast 2124 w/2-step starter. If my memory serves, I pitched roughly 380billion cells into 1.054 wort. Fermented down to 1.016, which was a couple points off of where I wanted it to be, but still good enough. I've heard that subsequent generations will ferment drier.
 
eric19312 said:
Well after one try I'm not convinced.

Brewed on 11-19-17
Fermented in mid 60s for 12 days

View attachment 552992

FG 1.010
Cold crashed 3 days and kegged using closed transfer
Hit it with gelatin in the keg when kegging.
After 5 weeks in the keg I am pouring this
Click to expand...

Eric was this the first pint or so pulled? My beers frequently look like that on the first few pulls, but generally get clearer and clearer the longer they sit. :mug:
 

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